Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert Cawthome (2nd nomination)

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I propose this page for deletion because no Australian soldier named General Robert "Bill" Cawthome, seconded to Pakistan, ever existed. Several media outlets mistakenly refer to this nonexistent individual as the co-founder of the Inter-Services Intelligence, instead of Major General Sir Walter Joseph "Bill" Cawthorn, an Australian who served as the Deputy Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Army. While [https://newint.org/columns/worldbeaters/2007/07/01/isi newint.org] correctly identifies Cawthorn in this role, it incorrectly refers to him as "R. Cawthorne." Additionally, Dr. Hein G. Kiessling, who has extensive connections within Pakistan's political, military, and intelligence circles, authored Faith, Unity, Discipline: The ISI of Pakistan in 2016, which [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Faith_Unity_Discipline/y_cgDgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Sir%20Walter highlights] Walter as the co-founder of the Inter-Services Intelligence. The Civil and Military Gazette of Lahore [https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results?basicsearch=%22cawthorn%22&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false&newspapertitle=civil%20%26%20military%20gazette%20(lahore) also supports this], confirming Walter's appointment as Deputy Chief of Staff. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 13:48, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

:I found another [https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/cawthorn-sir-walter-joseph-9715 article] originally by Peter Hohnen on Sir Walter Joseph Cawthorn (1896–1970), published in the Australian Dictionary of Biography, Volume 13, 1993. This further reinforces my argument that Robert "Bill" Cawthome never existed and is actually being confused with Walter Joseph "Bill" Cawthorn. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 14:10, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep: The same source by Hein Kiessling that the nom is ruining with their disruptive editing in [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Director-General_of_Inter-Services_Intelligence&curid=42966603&diff=1247478935&oldid=1247476866 this edit] states: {{tq|Established in the wake of the Indo-Pakistani War of 1947-48 by British officer Major General Robert Cawthorne, the then deputy chief of staff in the Pakistan Army.}} In addition, the book by S. K. Dutta [https://books.google.com/books?id=bgmqCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA1 states here]: {{tq|Generals of Pakistan and the ISI chiefs, retired and serving, have great admiration for the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI). One of them described the ISI as the 'most dreaded organization of South Asia'. For Pakistanis, South Asia means India. This sadism dominates the character of this infamous institution, which was created by an Australian-born British Major General Robert Cawthome of the Pakistan Army in 1948. This was the parting gift of the British forces to the Pakistanis. He was so favoured by the Pakistani generals that he was subsequently posted as Australian High Commissioner to Pakistan, where he developed unique close relationships with Iskander Mirza and Gen. Ayub, who were responsible for the derailment of democracy in Pakistan from the very beginning of its creation.}} Additionally, Amit Bagaria states in his book [https://books.google.com/books?id=WhSMDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT341 here]: {{tq|ISI was structured to be operated by officers from the three main military services, and to specialize in the collection, analysis, and assessment of foreign military and non-military intelligence. It was the brainchild of former British Indian Army Major General, Sir Robert Cawthome, then Deputy Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Army, who selected Colonel Shahid Hamid to set up the agency.}} Truly a very premature nomination created on a whim. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 14:28, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
• :[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Faith_Unity_Discipline/y_cgDgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22Walter%22 Where does Hein Kiessling ever mention a Robert Cawthorne?] There is literally NO reference to a Robert Cawthorne anywhere in the book. You're blatantly ignoring all the evidence right in front of you and cherry-picking random sources to support your weak argument. Tell me, would an Indian author really have more insight into Pakistan's agency than Dr. Kiessling, a PhD who literally wrote an entire book on the subject and is renowned for his connections with the Pakistani military? WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 14:35, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
• ::Read pages 14–20 of the book by Hein Kiessling. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 14:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
• :::I have read the book which is why I'm proposing the page for speedy deletion, page 14 literally says "Major General Walter Joseph Cawthorne"... WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 14:48, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
• ::Check the publisher's note. Additionally, are you suggesting that we should dismiss all these sources by Indian authors solely because they are Indian? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 14:50, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
• :::No that's not what I'm saying, don't speak for me or put words in my mouth. I think you're trolling because there is no way you're reading [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Faith_Unity_Discipline/y_cgDgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Major%20General%20Walter%20Joseph%20Cawthorne Walter Joseph Cawthorne] as Robert Cawthorne.. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 14:52, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
• ::::Former CIA official Bruce Riedel [https://www.google.com/books/edition/JFK_s_Forgotten_Crisis/o03DCQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Walter+Cawthorne+ISI&pg=PA29 mentions Walter Joseph Cawthorne], Adjunct Professor Owen L. Sirrs of the University of Montana [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Pakistan_s_Inter_Services_Intelligence_D/SzGTDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Walter&pg=PA2 similarly mentions Walter here], and General Syed Shahid Hamid, Cawthorn's successor, literally mentions him [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Disastrous_Twilight/iO7NAwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=shahid+hamid+cawthorne&pg=PT5&printsec=frontcover HERE.] It's okay to be wrong once in a while, not a big deal. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 15:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
• :::::Deputy Chief of Staff Walter Cawthorn, who also held the additional role of Secretary for the Joint Service Commanders' Committee, [https://dailyausaf.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/1038591373-1687412066-1540449781.jpg.avif appointed Brigadier Mirza Hamid Hussain] as the successor to Syed Shahid Hamid as the head of the agency on 23 August 1950. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 10:08, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military, Pakistan, and United Kingdom. Shellwood (talk) 14:50, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
• Delete clearly confusion over name has led to creation of this duplicative page when we have a page for Walter Cawthorn. Mztourist (talk) 04:09, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
• Redirect. Earlier today I considered deleting this as WP:G3, blatant hoax – until I looked at the page history, that is. There are two confusions at work here, one between Walter and Robert, and the other between Cawthorn and Cawthorne as Walter's surname and between Cawthorne (...ORNE} and Cawthome (...OME) as Robert's surname. Of the three books cited by {{u|SheriffIsInTown}}, the first [https://books.google.it/books?id=y_cgDgAAQBAJ&q=Cawthorne&hl=en#v=onepage discusses] "Walter Cawthorne" but has no mention of Robert; the other two discuss "Robert Cawthome". There's no doubt that Walter Cawthorn is the person who set up the ISI, even if the Australian Dictionary of Biography neglects to mention that ([https://www-cambridge-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/core/journals/journal-of-global-history/article/britain-india-and-the-united-nations-colonialism-and-the-development-of-international-governance-19451960/82C74C81650142D0B382D3269DBEC8E7 Cambridge], [https://www-tandfonline-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/full/10.1080/02684527.2017.1317982#abstract Taylor & Francis]). However, Scholar searches yield:

:* [https://scholar.google.it/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Walter+Cawthorn%22 Walter Cawthorn]: 23 results

:* [https://scholar.google.it/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Walter+Cawthorne%22 Walter Cawthorne]: 5 results

:* [https://scholar.google.it/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Robert+Cawthorne%22 Robert Cawthorne]: 10 results

:* [https://scholar.google.it/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Robert+Cawthome%22 Robert Cawthome]: 5 results.

:Given this level of confusion, there should be redirects from the other three name variants to the correct one. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

::Justlettersandnumbers, But redirect where? — Saqib (talk I contribs) 15:19, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

:::{{u|Saqib}}, to :Walter Cawthorn, our article on this person (under his correct name). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Redirect to Walter Cawthorn: Based on the accurate analysis by {{u| Justlettersandnumbers}} — Saqib (talk I contribs) 17:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.