:Talk:Pichenotte#Edit request

{{Resolved|1=Games too different for effective merge.}}

:Pitchnut should be merged into this article. The only discernable difference is that pitchnut has no walls but a gutter instead, while French-Canadian pichenotte has walled sides making it possible to do rebound shots. Clearly the former is nothing but a derivative of the latter, including the name. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

::Pitchnut does have walls, but it also differs greatly from pichenotte in that it has posts or screws. The combination of the gutters and the posts makes the game much more difficult to play than pichenotte. While pichenotte is mass-produced, the only pitchnut boards that I've ever seen are hand-made. I'm trying to discover the origins of this game, and combining it with pichenotte would trivialize the differences. — Arrowmoose 21:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

::Sounds plausible to me. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 04:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

What this article calles round pichenotte is just another name for crokinole and should redirect there. --77.75.179.1 (talk) 16:29, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

: In fact, I've googled "round pichenotte" and the ONLY results are this article. I think we should remove any referencese about this term. --77.75.179.1 (talk) 20:53, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

:: And this «round pichenotte» concept was added by a user whose unique contribution was this one edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/ThreeVictors

:: This convinces me the edit must be undone. --77.75.179.1 (talk) 21:00, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

::: From the Online Guide to Traditional Games: "Crokinole - a game developed in Canada which is now increasingly popular across all of North America. In French Canada it is sometimes known as Pichenotte. https://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Squails-Crokinole.htm There are many examples, such as in the Quebec Museum of Civilisationhttps://collections.mcq.org/objets/76963 that many French Canadians refer to the round game with 8 posts as pichenotte. As in Pichenotte and Crokinole, there are many different names and rules for the games of football and soccer, or pool and billiards. Perhaps a separate page for the square game of pichenotte with corner holes and a separate page for the round game of pichenotte with a center hole would be helpful as a disambiguation. ThreeVictors (talk) 03:43, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

:::: Your sources talk about a French name, not about an English name. So, if anything, you should edit the corresponding article in the French wikipedia (to explain the mistake people make), not here. --77.75.179.1 (talk) 08:21, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

Hello, I am new to editing so please bear with me. I am wondering what Pinnochi has to do with Pichenotte. Are you promoting a company or suggesting where to buy? Please explainThreeVictors (talk) 03:57, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

{{edit COI|D|See below}}

October 5, 2020

To the Editors from DVQuebec

I have CONFLICT OF INTEREST as owner of www.pichenotte.com and I own the US Trademark for PICHENOTTE and a PAID hobby of making pichenotte boards, I will defer to other editors to correct, amend and edit the entry for pichenotte to provide accuracy and inclusiveness.

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MY SUGGESTED ADDITIONS, CHANGES AND REFERENCES/ CITATIONS FOR PICHENOTTE

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Pichenotte is a French word derived from pichenette which means 'flick'. https://www.wordsense.eu/pichenotte/ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pichenotte

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Pichenotte is a United States Trademark https://www.pichenotte.com/pichenotte-trademark/ http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/

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The Quebec Museum of Civilisation https://www.mcq.org/en/ 'aka' Musee de la Civilisation de Quebec

https://www.mcq.org/en/ has two collection exhibits for the game of 'pichenotte'.

The round board at the Canadian Quebec Museum of Civilisation https://collections.mcq.org/objets/76963

The square board at the Canadian Quebec Museum of Civilisationhttps://collections.mcq.org/objets/81406

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- On the square board, the edges of the playing surface are bounded by raised wooden sides. The object of the game is to strike a wooden disc such that it contacts lighter discs and propels them into one of four corner pockets. These pockets are usually larger than those on Indian carrom boards. The playing pieces come in two colors denoting the two players (or teams, in doubles play). An additional piece is colored red (or other unique color) and called the "queen" or "king".

- On the round board, the playing surface is raised above the floor of the board and is surrounded by a ditch enclosed with an octagonal or round wall. The board is divided into four quadrants with three scoring zones made up of three concentric circles and one center hole. Eight posts, positioned equally around the innermost scoring circle line, surround the center hole. The object of the game is to knock your opponent's pucks from the board while keeping your own on the board.

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- The aim of the square game is to sink one's eleven pieces before the opponent sinks theirs. However before sinking one's final piece, the queen must be pocketed and "covered" by pocketing one of one's own pieces on the same or a subsequent shot. Fouls, such as crossing the diagonal lines on the board with any part of one's body, or scratching (pocketing the striker or sending it off the board), lead to one of one's pieces being returned to the board.

- The aim of the round game is to score as many points as possible, while limiting those of your opponent. At the end of play, all pucks left on the board are counted (according to their position in each of the three scoring zones) and added to any pucks that came to rest in the center hole (these are removed from the board). Many variations of the rules exist.

Rules for Round Pichenotte

World Crokinole Championshiphttp://www.worldcrokinole.com/thegame.html

Pichenotte Dot Comhttps://www.pichenotte.com/tournament-rules-dec-2018/

Rules for Square Pichenotte -

Quebec Association of Pichenotte Players

https://web.archive.org/web/20111107033543/http://www.fqjr.qc.ca/pichenot/fr/regles.html

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thumb

The round game also has other names, which does cause confusion, such as:

French: Croquignole flick, biscuit, bun

English: Crokinole - Anglicized form of the French Croquignole

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=pichenotte+crokinole&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current=%7B%7D&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1#/media/File:A425C._piche_vs_croke1.jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=pichenotte+crokinole&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current=%7B%7D&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1#/media/File:A425C._piche_vs_croke1.jpg

German: KnipsBrat - the flicking board http://knipsbrat.com/pichenotte.html

The word pichenotte is used liberally to describe other games that include the action of flicking.

Such as Pichenotte Hockey https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/246571/pichenotte-hockey

There seems to be no book references to the square or round game of pichenotte, however, there is an important book about the round game aka crokinole called The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kellyhttps://crokinole.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/book1-b.jpg

Publisher:

1st Edition: Boston Mills Press, Erin, Ontario, Canada

2nd Edition: Stoddart Publishing Co. Limited, Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Revised Third Edition: Self Published by Wayne Kelly 1988, 1999, 2012

ISBN: 0-919783-83-X

1. Crokinole (game) I. Title

GV1312 K44 1988 794 C88-093933-8

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There are newspaper articles about pichenotte tournaments and events in Santa Fe, New Mexico:

1) Tavistock Gazette September 27, 2020

https://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Gazette_08_26_20_FINAL-5.pdf

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2) Santa Fe New Mexican October 27, 1998

http://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/border_100_mall_pdf_1.pdf

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3) Santa Fe New Mexican December 19, 1999

http://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/border_100_second_st_pdf_7.pdf

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4) The Albuquerque Journal August 10, 1999

http://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/border_100_albq_journ_jpg_2.pdf

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There are many webpages confirming the common knowledge that pichenotte also refers to the round game

Round Pichenotte_1https://www.picuki.com/tag/pichenottegame

Round Pichenotte_2https://www.picuki.com/media/1970147651362463394

Round Pichenotte_3https://www.picuki.com/media/1418510301346793730

Round Pichenotte_4https://www.picuki.com/media/1527995846694851666

Round Pichenotte_5https://www.picuki.com/media/1524870362437054634

Round Pichenotte_6https://www.picuki.com/media/945886142124624677

scroll to the end of this page http://www.worldcrokinole.com/photos2015.html

thumb

Let's look at some round pichenotte boards for sale on the web:

Round Pichenotte_7https://www.facebook.com/lejouetantique/photos/jeu-de-pichenotte-tout-fait-de-bois/1428302400753132/

Round Pichenotte_8https://www.varagesale.com/i/7hpwtwha-jeu-de-pichenotte

Round Pichenotte_9https://www.ebay.com/itm/193407221347?ViewItem=&item=193407221347

Round Pichenotte_10https://www.varagesale.com/i/rxwq6xve-crokinole-board-jeu-de-pichenotte

Round Pichenotte_11https://encanrivenord.hibid.com/lot/80051-103016-6198/jeu-de-pichenotte-vintage/

Round Pichenotte_12ef>https://offerup.com/item/detail/854976201/

Let's look at some pichenotte tournament photos from New Mexico

https://www.pichenotte.com/photo-gallery-three/

Friend and Family Playing Pichenotte Photos

https://www.pichenotte.com/photo-gallery-three/

thumb

thumb

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See also

www.pichenotte.com

{{cite book |last1=Kelly |first1=Wayne |title=The Crokinole Book (first edition) |publisher=Boston Mills |location=Erin, Ontario, Canada |isbn=0-919783-83-X |url=https://crokinole.com/index.php/products/}}Book ReferencesBold text (even though no mention is made of Pichenotte)

The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kellyhttps://crokinole.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/book1-b.jpg

Publisher:

1st Edition: Boston Mills Press, Erin, Ontario, Canada

2nd Edition: Stoddart Publishing Co. Limited, Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Revised Third Edition: Self Published by Wayne Kelly 1988, 1999, 2012

ISBN: 0-919783-83-X

1. Crokinole (game) I. Title

GV1312 K44 1988 794 C88-093933-

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Pichenotte is often used as a pet name for dogs or cats

Pichenotte Pet_1https://www.picuki.com/profile/pichenotte_

Pichenotte Pet_1https://www.picuki.com/profile/princesse_pichenotte

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I have reached out several times to the representatives of the square game, both FQJR (Federation Quebec de Jeux Recreations http://www.quebecjeux.org/portfolio/pichenottes/

and AJQP Association de Jeux Quebec aux Pichenotte http://pichenottes.quebecjeux.org/fr/http://pichenottes.quebecjeux.org/fr/ in Quebec about their games and rules and inquired about who makes them, but they have never replied to my phone calls or emails.

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Items to consider for changing:

2) The current entry for pichenotte states without reference:

"The term is sometimes also mistakenly used as the actual name of other games of this class, such as carrom and crokinole."

Who is the authority to be cited ? Who is pronouncing this judgment ? and to what purpose ?

3) The current entry for pichenotte states:

"While the specifics are uncertain, pichenotte certainly must have originated from the Indian game carrom. In the mid-19th century, carrom was likely brought to Canada by Indian or British immigrants."

It could be stated more correctly that 'perhaps' or 'probably' or 'likely' pichenotte originated from the Indian game of carrom.

4) The current entry for pichenotte states:

" Another variant of the game called pitchnut" without a reference. The reference is https://pitchnut.com/#

------------------------------

items to consider for adding:

1) What millions of Quebec residents know, is that the word pichenotte refers to many games involving a flicking action. They use the word instead of carroms, crokinole, and croquignole.

They play pichenotte hockey, pichenotte football, and when they flick each other on the nose or the head, they say they are giving a pichenotte. Pichenotte is a common name for animal pets such as dogs, cats, and birds.

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From The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly First Edition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crokinole

"Origins of the name''

The name "crokinole" derives from croquignole, a French word today designating: in France, a kind of cookie (or biscuit in British English),[9] similar to a biscotto; in French Canada, a pastry somewhat similar to a doughnut (except for the shape).[11]

It also used to designate the action of flicking with the finger (Molière, Le malade imaginaire; or Voltaire, Lettre à Frédéric II Roi de Prusse; etc.), and this seems the most likely origin of the name of the game.

Croquignole was also a synonym of pichenotte, a word that gave its name to the different but related games of pichenotte and pitchnut. Crokinole is called knipsbrat ('flick-board') (and occasionally knipsdesh (flick-table)) in the Plautdietsch spoken by Russian Mennonites."

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Wayne Kelly states on page 21 of First Edition of The Crokinole Book https://crokinole.com/index.php/products/

" It is outstanding unusual that, in an age when countless trillions of words have been cranked off the press concerning subjects....next to nothing has been written about a highly popular social activity such as crokinole".

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page 22

" ...with regard to all responses and photographs received from museums, archives, historical societies and individuals polled from coast to coast....none added information as to the origin of the game."

--------------------------

The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly ISBN: 0-919783-83-X

Third Edition: ( spiral bound)

https://crokinole.com/index.php/products/

pg 41

"Similar to the search for crokinole history, a surprising lack of information about the game of carrom was positively the rule back in 1987 - at least here in North America. Happily, that void is now being addressed by several diligent researchers, historians, and game aficionados."

pg 49

" Great variety has existed in the size, shape and weight of the simple crokinole board."

"The early octagonal boards (my personal favorite) weighed close to 11 pounds..."

" Round boards, too, have had great popularity." " Round boards have the tendency to show up in specific geographic regions....in Waterloo and Wellington counties of Ontario and in various communities across Quebec"

pg 59

" The designs and dimensions of crokinole boards seems as varied as the men who turned a hand at making them".

DVQuebec adds: Surely, Crokinole players the world over, owe a great debt of gratitude to Wayne Kelly, now deceased https://worldcrokinole.com/kelly.html although his son Caleb is carrying the torch as 'Son of Crokinole at www.crokinole.com

.......................

------------------------

{{reflist-talk}}

Signed:

ThreeVictors (talk) 04:05, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Pichenotte is a French word derived from pichenette which means 'flick'. https://www.wordsense.eu/pichenotte/ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pichenotte

{{reflist-talk}}

DVQuebec (talk) 09:57, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

:Fwiw, added:[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pichenotte&diff=982304708&oldid=981112860], though none of those refs are WP:RS, being WP:USERG. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:12, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Pichenotte is a United States Trademark https://www.pichenotte.com/pichenotte-trademark/ http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/

{{reflist-talk}}

DVQuebec (talk) 09:58, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

:Obviously correct, but personally I'm unwilling to insert this with WP:PRIMARY sources. Has any decent secondary WP:RS noticed and bothered to write about it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

From my prolonged research, these changes seem to improve the clarity and accuracy of this entry for PICHENOTTE.

I don't know how to properly align the photos in the article

File:Pichenotte2.jpg

Pichenotte is a French noun translated into English as [https://www.wordsense.eu/pichenotte/ 'flick']. In French Canadian [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vernacular&oldid=996493803 vernacular], the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Generic&oldid=986599174 generic term] pichenotte often refers to several [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Disk-flicking_games&oldid=547608488 disk-flicking games]. These games include, but not limited to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carrom&oldid=996550121 carrom], crokinole, [http://knipsbrat.com/pichenotte.html knips-brat]([http://knipsbrat.com/pichenotte.html German for flicking-board]), [https://pitchnut.com/# pitchnut], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chapayev_(game)&oldid=968150921 chapayev], [https://www.boardgameatlas.com/game/QrnQ09qbh0/pichenotte-hockey pichenotte hockey], and [https://www.boardgameatlas.com/game/6plyF3BQ1g/pichenotte-football pichenotte football]. The Quebec Museum of Civlization, exhibits the two basic forms of pichenotte, a round game{{Cite web|last=civilisation|first=Musée de la|title=Collections - Musée de la civilisation|url=https://collections.mcq.org/|access-date=2021-01-06|website=Collections - Musée de la civilisation}} and a square game{{Cite web|last=civilisation|first=Musée de la|title=Collections - Musée de la civilisation|url=https://collections.mcq.org/|access-date=2021-01-06|website=Collections - Musée de la civilisation}} which they say appeared in the mid 1800's. Pichenotte is not a patented game, therefore it does not refer to any one particular game and there are many variations in size, shape and rules. Pichenotte is a registered [https://www.pichenotte.com/pichenotte-trademark/ U.S. Trademark]. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Cue_sports&oldid=894601106 Carrom] and Crokinole are also played as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Cue_sports&oldid=894601106 cue sports]. Novuss is generally only played as a cue sport, not a disk-flicking game.

According to Quebecoise Pitchnut maker Lee Larcheveque, "Crokinole is also called “Pichenotte” by French Canadians"{{Cite web|last=Larcheveque|first=Lee|date=|title=Pitchnut {{!}} The fast, fun, finger-flicking game|url=https://pitchnut.com/#history|url-status=live|archive-url=|archive-date=|access-date=2021-01-06|website=pitchnut.com}} The manufacturers of the German disk flicking game called Knips-Brat describe how the words Crokinole, Pichenotte and Knips-Brat are used interchangeably{{Cite web|title=Pichenotte - Crokinole by another name - Knipsbrat|url=http://knipsbrat.com/pichenotte.html|access-date=2021-01-06|website=knipsbrat.com}} The Tavistock Gazette in Ontario, Canada printed their news story about the round game of pichenotte{{Cite news|last=Gazette|first=Tavistock|date=August 26, 2020|year=2020|title=The-French-Flicking-Frog|work=Tavistock Gazette|location=Tavistock, Ontario, Canada|url=https://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Gazette_08_26_20_FINAL-5.pdf|url-status=live|access-date=}} on August 26, 2020. Many other French Canadians consider Pichenotte and Crokinole to be the same game, such as The [https://www.casarondena.com/event/french-nights-pichenotte-aka-crokinole/ Casa Rodena Winery venue],and [https://www.pinterest.com/edmarcelle/crokinole-pichenotte/ gameboard collector Ed Marcelle] .

There are many variants of the games which often include the addition of bumpers or metal wickets or similar obstacles on the board to make the game more challenging. For French Canadians, a pichenotte may also refer to a flick on the head or a flick on the nose, a nickname for pets{{Cite web|title=Pichenotte l'immortelle by Aimebebe on DeviantArt|url=https://www.deviantart.com/aimebebe/art/Pichenotte-l-immortelle-279397677|access-date=2020-12-30|website=www.deviantart.com|language=en}}, and a type of delicious nut candy{{Cite web|title=Pichenotte Noix et Délices - Quebec City, QC|url=https://www.yelp.ca/biz/pichenotte-noix-et-d%C3%A9lices-qu%C3%A9bec|access-date=2020-12-30|website=Yelp|language=en}}.

File:COMPARISONS OF NAMES OF THE GAME PICHENOTTE CARROM CROKINOLE.jpg

The square boards pictured on this Wikipedia page seem to be handmade, vintage games, and there are no known current manufacturers of square pichenotte boards.

There are many manufacturers of round pichenotte boards aka 'crokinole' including [http://www.crokinoledepot.com/ The Crokinole Depot], [https://crokinole.ca/ Crokinole Canada], [https://www.crokinolegameboards.com/ Crokinole Gameboards], [https://crokinole.com/ Mr. Crokinole], and [https://www.pichenotte.com/ Pichenotte Games.]

While the specifics are uncertain, all forms of pichenotte may have originated from the Indian game carrom. In the mid-19th century, carrom was likely brought to Canada by Indian or British immigrants, or soldiers returning from India, Nepal or Tibet, where the game has a large following and is played both socially and on a professional level.

File:PichenotteMarion.jpg]]

The game is played on a board of lacquered plywood, normally {{convert|28|in}} square. The edges of the playing surface are bounded by raised wooden sides. The object of the game is to strike a wooden disc such that it contacts lighter discs and propels them into one of four corner pockets. These pockets are usually larger than those on Indian carrom boards. The playing pieces come in two colours denoting the two players (or teams, in doubles play). An additional piece is coloured red (or other unique colour) and called the "queen" or "king".

The aim of the game is to sink one's eleven pieces before the opponent sinks theirs. However before sinking one's final piece, the queen must be pocketed and "covered" by pocketing one of one's own pieces on the same or a subsequent shot. Fouls, such as crossing the diagonal lines on the board with any part of one's body, or {{Cuegloss|Scratch|scratching}} (pocketing the striker or sending it off the board), lead to one of one's pieces being returned to the board.

The game has a round surface about 24 inches in diameter, elevated from the deck or ditch, usually from 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch. The rails may be octagonal or round. Each player has 12 round pucks about 1-1/4 inch diameter by about 1/2 inch tall. There are 3 scoring zones of 5, 10 and 15 points, deliniated by concentric circles about 7 inches apart. The center hole is worth 20 points. A scorecard helps the players keeps score, which is typically played to 500 points, but players sometimes choose to play best of 5 or best of 7 games.

File:Round pichenotte board 2.jpg

There are easy [https://www.pichenotte.com/pichenotte-rules/ beginner rules] and [https://www.pichenotte.com/tournament-rules-dec-2018/ advanced tournament rules.] Begin with board and ditch cleared of pucks and each player having the same number of pucks “in hand”. Typically 12 pucks each for singles and 6 pucks each for doubles. Each player or doubles team uses one color of puck. Each player or team takes a turn shooting one puck from the outer most ring, called the baseline. The puck is to lie flat on the gameboard and the legal shot is a flicking motion with the hand remaining in place. It is not legal to push or shove the puck. The first player tries to land in the center for 20 points. If they do, they score 20 points, which cannot be taken away. If they miss, their opponent will flick a puck from their quadrant and try to knock their opponent into the ditch. Once a puck is in the ditch, it is not played again, and counts for zero points. Play alternates back and forth, one shot each, until each player has shot 12 times. The score total is based on how many 20's were scored during the round and where the remaining pucks are on the board, according to the scoring zones. If a puck lands directly on a scoring line, it counts for the lesser score.

File:Kamouraska_Pichneotte.JPG

Another variant of the game called pitchnut has four screws or pegs 4 inches (10 cm) from the centre of the board, and two screws or pegs in front of each pocket. It also has 2-inch (5-cm) recessed alleys along each side.

• Chapayev
• Novuss
• Pitchnut
• Carrom
• Crokinole

{{Reflist}}

• [https://web.archive.org/web/20111107033417/http://www.fqjr.qc.ca/pichenottes.html Quebec Pichenotte Players Association], archived
• [https://www.pichenotte.com Pichenotte Games] - Dave Lagasse
• [https://pitchnut.com/# Pitchnut - Lee Larcheveque]
• [https://www.uscarrom.org/ Carrom. org]
• [http://www.crokinoledepot.com/ The Crokinole Depot - The Beierling Brothers]
• [http://knipsbrat.com/pichenotte.html KnipsBrat]
• [https://crokinole.com/ Mister Crokinole - Caleb Kelly]
• [https://crokinole.ca/ Crokinole Canada - Ted Fuller]
• [https://www.crokinolegameboards.com/ Crokinole Gameboards - Jeremy Tracey]
• [http://www.worldcrokinole.com/index.html World Crokinole Championship]
• [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/36799/chapayev Chapayev]
• [http://novussusa.com/ Novuss]

DVQuebec (talk) 11:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

DVQuebec

:Hi {{ping|DVQuebec}} I am going to close this edit request. Many of the sources, such as wordscence, Wikipedia itself, and pinterest are not reliable sources. I suggest using scholarly sources or academic journals for sources. Also, much of the language is promotional and needs a rewrite to sound like a disinterested observer. Finally, the formatting of the request makes it difficult to understand exactly what you want to add to the article. I suggest creating a markup in your sandbox that shows an editor what you want the final article to look like. If you need help or have any questions, please post on the help desk. When you are ready to submit a new request, please follow the instructions on Template:Request edit/Instructions with a link to the markup in your sandbox. Thanks and happy editing. Z1720 (talk) 03:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

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Yes, thank you Z1720 for your comments...and yes, I would like your help to improve the article. How should we proceed to improve it ? I have no qualms about the game once being a square game. But the word pichenotte encompasses a lot more in the life of the French Canadian people. It refers to many different flicking games. I am new at this, so some of my links or citations may be weak. However, if you be so kind as to click on many of the links I have provided, you will see that many of them support the fact that pichenotte means almost any disk flicking game you can imagine, and it means even more than that. The specific URL of the Quebec Museum de la Civilisation that shows a round pichenotte game board is https://collections.mcq.org/objets/76963 . I thought I had included that in my proposed article, but perhaps I did not. As the Canadian historian and author Wayne Kelly, who I quote quite often had found out after 30 years of research about the game of crokinole, in his book, The Crokinole Book, he says over and over again that there is almost nothing written about the histories of either game, crokinole or pichenotte before 1987 when he began his research. There are no 'experts' on the game or the history of pichenotte. Pichenotte is a generic term meaning flick. It is not a patented game. The man in the Quebec Museum is the head of the Collection and not just a staff member. As you noted, I also quote from the wThe Tavistock Gazette is a long established newspaper in the town that many say is perhaps the birthplace of the game of crokinole, so if anyone is going to deny that pichenotte is a round game, it is Bill Gladding of the Tavistock Gazette ! But he agrees with me that the word pichenotte also refers to the game the Ontario residents know as crokinole. Also on the www.pitchnut.com site, the man who has roots in Quebec also states plainly on his history page that residents of French Canada who play his game of pitchnut, also refer to crokinole as pichenotte. Pichenotte being a unique Canadian word, based on the French word 'pichenette'. Thanks for your offer to help. I think this is a good discussion and look forward to a more accurate article. DVQuebec (talk) 12:11, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

DVQuebec (talk) 12:16, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

:I have responded to this on my talk page. Please do not post the same thing in multiple places, as it makes it harder for future editors to follow the discussion. Z1720 (talk) 16:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

This needs to be redone. This article needs to focus on the game known as pichenotte, as distinct from a game known as pitchnut and a game known as crokinole or croquinole. I.e., it should primarily be about the rules and the equipment differences. The lead should {{em|briefly}} explain that any of these terms can sometimes be used more generically for the entire class of games, then save most of this detail for a terminology and history section. And it's not even clear which article most of that really belongs at; whichever term is oldest, probably, then cross-reference it from the other articles with only summary information on this at those other pages (see WP:Summary style). I think D. Lagasse has been working on a re-draft. If enough well-sourced material can be found for it, then a History of crokinole and pichenotte (or whatever spellings are preferred) might even be viable. Anyway, this is very much like billiards, which can mean "the entire family of the billiards-class games from ancient times to every variant that exists now" (i.e., it can mean "cue sports in general"); or it can (to British and sometimes Irish, Australian, etc. people) "the game of English billiards in particular"; or it can mean (mostly to people outside that just-mentioned category) "carom billiards games as a class" or even more narrowly "three-cushion billiards", or (mostly to Americans) is can me "pool AKA pocket billiards" (but not snooker or Russian billiards or English billiards which are pocket games but are not pool). We've managed to write comprehensive and well-disambiguated cue sports articles despite this multi-layered terminological confusion. It take some effort, but the same discipline and clarity needs to be applied here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:34, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

:Like I said at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pichenotte, I think merging this to some sort of :Category:Disk-flicking games article would improve things, but that would involve over-turning the Afd. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:18, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

From D. Lagasse...Thanks User:SMcCandlish and User:Gråbergs - I am working on a re-draft and will have something up soon. You are both vastly more experienced than I am at encyclopedic writing, but.I have to bring the facts as I know them, from friends and relatives and reliable sources and being of French Canadian ancestry and being familiar with all these games. As I believe you have both said, this word pichenotte encompasses more than just one game, since it is not a patented game and even though there is an archived website about some older gentlemen in Quebec who seem to claim the word for their own exclusive use for a game similar to carrom, their group, as far as I can tell, is no longer in existence and their meeting place, the Big Foot Lodge (yes, really ! ) no longer is in existence either, so ....There is a loosely knit, but active American Southwest Pichenotte League and tournaments, in the states of New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma, Utah and Colorado. However, it would be a mistake to exclusively say that pichenotte is limited to any locale or any game.

DVQuebec (talk) 19:16, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

:{{ping|DVQuebec}} When you're trying to ping someone, do it as {{U|Complete Username}} or User:Complete Username (or, if you want a colon after it, {{ping|Complete Username}}. You can't do Complete Username, which attempts to link to an article by that name, or User:Partial Username, which doesn't work, and might actually ping someone else whose username coincidentally was that shorter name.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:51, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

:Apart from getting the "code" right, you must also WP:SIGN in the same published edit, otherwise the ping doesn't work. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:12, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

In the interest of making it less 'messy', I will remove the 'India - International Carrom' and the 'Canadian - American Pitchnut' and place links to them in the SEE ALSO next to NOVUSS. I will also add American Southwest Pichenotte, which is similar Canadian- American Crokinole, but different in size and different in rules. I will also continue to make positive and accurate and well referenced changes to the games Crokinole, Pitchnut and Carrom. DVQuebec (talk) 21:31, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Why did someone change 'many tournaments' to many tournament' And remove the links ? I have a hard time accepting changes when there is no explanation and the the grammar is changed for the worse ! And it is frustrating to find exactly who made it, but I believe it was User:Gråbergs If so,, could you please explain why you changed the grammar from plural to singular and removed the links to international crokinole tournaments and clubs ? Or if not you, can you tell me who made it ? Thank you., DVQuebec (talk) 21:37, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

From DLagasse: The word 'pichenotte' is messy, like billiards, football or many common food words that mean different things to different people. Ask 5 different French Canadians "What is pichenotte?" and since there is no one single game ever patented as 'pichenotte' you can get 5 different answers that include several different types of games called carrom (with our without pegs, wickets, etc, or they may refer to the game pitchnut, or the game known as crokinole aka croquignole, etc. Ask a Frenchman what is in the food dish called 'poutine' and you will get several different answers. So, yes, messy. but the article is fixable and explainable, no doubt.DVQuebec (talk) 04:44, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Courtesy ping to {{u|SMcCandlish}}. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:37, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

:I've done a basic cleanup pass on it, mostly for style and formatting issues; here's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pichenotte&type=revision&diff=1016714388&oldid=1016618002&diffmode=source a combined diff] of all those edits. It doesn't really address the structural problems.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:51, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Hello, I have taken great pains to find relevant links for example, to Wayne Kelly and Eckhardt Wettlaufer and crokinole tournaments and clubs and you are deleting them...why ? please explain or put them back and please be careful about grammar...'many tournament' is not the same as 'many tournaments'. Thank you. DVQuebec (talk) 22:04, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

:"There are many more tournament" was a mistake, fixed. Like I said in my edit summaries, most of the rest was WP:EL, we don't link off-WP in article text (properly formed references is different, see WP:TUTORIAL). Don't do stuff like [https://www.worldcrokinole.com/kelly.html Wayne Kelly], that's not how we work. I'm not sure how to handle the in-text links to Wiktionary, that's not usually done either. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:37, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

:Note also MOS:ITAL. Basically, italics on WP is for titles of book, films, etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:39, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

OK, points well taken, I was not aware of the limited use of external links as a recommendation within the body of the text, so I won't do that anymore. It seemed to me that this was common practice, and even encouraged, to link as much as possible, whether internal or external, but I have read the guidelines now. Thanks for that. As for the italics, I wasn't the one who started doing that in this article, but I was following the lead of someone else, but perhaps that was a mistake on their part, but again, I won't do that and thanks DVQuebec (talk) 03:36, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

:{{ping|DVQuebec}} Yeah, everything cited in-article needs to be done as a proper reference citation, preferably with a consistent citation template, like {{tlx|Cite web}}. Typical usage:{{block indent|1={{cite web |last=Ceesdale |first=Abe B. |title=Article Title: Subtitle If Any |date=date or at least year of publication |work=Name of Website (or its base domain name if it doesn't have a title other than the domain name) |publisher=Optional Publishing Company Name, if significantly different from the work title |url= you know what this is |access-date=today's full date}}}}Parameters that are unknown or don't apply (e.g. no named author, unknown date of original publication) can be left blank, other than title is mandatory, as is URL if it's a website. The other templates like {{tlx|Cite journal}} and {{tlx|Cite news}} work the same way, except that in {{tlx|Cite book}}, {{para|title}} is for the entire book (would be {{para|work}} or one of its aliases in the other templates), while a specific article or other sub-work inside the book is {{para|chapter}}.

{{User|Gråbergs Gråa Sång}} Please do not remove material cited with bare URLs inline (or remove those cites themselvse). Either repair the citations to have the info they need and to be inside {{xtag|ref}} tags, or at bare minimum wrap {{tag|ref|o}} around the URL and flag it with {{tlx|Bare URL inline}} so someone else will expand it. Nuking people's actually-sourced contributions because you don't like their formatting is destructive and transgresses WP:BITE.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

::I did some of that too: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pichenotte&diff=1015769190&oldid=1015768743]. However, stuff like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pichenotte&diff=1015769578&oldid=1015769190] did not appear to me as being intended as refs. If they are good for refs, they can be added back as such. On citing stuff, I use the semi-automatic method described at Help:Introduction to referencing with Wiki Markup/3 myself. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:47, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

:::There are also citation-aiding tools available under Preferences > Gadgets and Preferences > Beta features (how useful they are depends on how much you train yourself to use them; I've had most of them installed for years, but still manually do most citations, ha ha).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Wow....I don't know if it means much, coming from a newbie like me, but that is some damn good encyclopedic editing ! Gracias !....I think the page is looking great...I will have more to add, but I did some editing on the intro to focus on the family of games, not the definition of the word...DLagasse DVQuebec (talk) 04:19, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

In addition to the highly significant IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) pronunciation, it is helpful for the general reader to display an easy pronunciation of the word pichenotte. This word is Canadian French and not used in European French. The word is found on page 69 and page 222 in NTC's Dictionary of Canadian French Published by Natl Textbook Co Trade, 1991 ISBN 10: 0844214868ISBN 13: 9780844214863. It is not, as some suggest a 3 syllable word. The first syllable is 'piche' as in 'riche' or 'quiche'. The second syllable is 'notte' pronounced in common canadian parlance as 'nut'. DVQuebec (talk) 04:50, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Much of the content of the Pichenotte#Pitchnut section needs to merge to the main article Pitchnut, and much of the content of the Pichenotte#Crokinole or pichenotte section needs to merge to the main article Crokinole. {{em|This}} article should just briefly summarize them, per WP:SUMMARY. Keeping some of the images here to help distinguish between the board types would be valuable, though.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:29, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Also, much of Carrom#North American carrom needs to be sourced and merged into Pichenotte#Canadian–American carrom (or vice versa), leaving only a concise summary behind.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:35, 5 May 2023 (UTC)