:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Enterprise Drive

:{{la|Enterprise Drive}} ([{{fullurl:Enterprise Drive|wpReason={{urlencode:AfD discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Enterprise Drive}}&action=delete}} delete]) – (View AfD)(View log)

Delete article about a short road in a commercial/industrial area in the town of Markham, Ontario. This road has no historical or cultural importance, and is simply generic municipal infrastructure. Although it may be slightly re-aligned, it cannot be extended much beyond its current location, since a residential area blocks it to the east, and IBM Canada headquarters are to the west. Mindmatrix 16:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• Strong Keep: Is an important road in the town where it is located with well-known landmarks within the area. Hellno2 (talk) 18:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• To which well-known landmarks along the road are you referring? Even if you can name one, it would warrant an article, not this road. Further, this is not an important road other than through opinion.It will never be longer than 2km, and will serve as a minor bypass between other roads. Mindmatrix 18:35, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• Before I vote my opinion, I just want to say that this street is not a minor bypass. It is an important road. It will be longer than 2 km as it will stretch as far as Woodbine Avenue to the east and McCowan Road to the west. For your information, the road currently IS 2.0 km, not counting the part between the YMCA and Kennedy Road, which is already under construction. Residential area block is not a problem, it will chain up with current roads there to form a complete by-pass. IBM? No problem, the road will dive south, utilizing the unzoned land just immediately south of IBM. The residential zoning on South Unionville Avenue (the portion where the Markham government is planning to chain it up) is already upgraded to medium density. It will chain up the existing Yorktech Road (by bypassing the existing IBM Canada), Unionville Gate, and South Unionville Avenue. It is not a minor bypass, it is a major one spanning across the town, from the western end towards the east. If you do not think the road can merit an article, we can rename the article as Yorktech-Enterprise-Unionville-South Unionville, as an alternative, referring to this stretch of road. It is much anticipated to hold up huge volumes of traffic once Markham Centre and Downtown Markham completed its construction. In Downtown Markham alone, there will be at least 10,000 residents and 10,000 (maybe even more) employees, plus IBM employs even more employees. If these 20,000 people uses the road daily, plus any other visitors to Downtown Markham, the AADT will be much higher than the current highest record of AADT (the highest record is held by Warden Avenue, at 14,000). Minor bypass? A minor bypass will serve an AADT value of more than 20,000, which is more than any other roads in Markham (as of 2006)? Hellno2 is right, the road is important to the development of Downtown Markham (not to mention Markham Centre as well). The road serves Markham's Central Business District (as seen [http://www.downtownmarkham.ca/view/index.php here (point your cursor to #5 of the map)] and in this sense, comparable to Toronto's Bay Street, and Mississauga's Hurontario Street. It will the "main street" of Markham. Don't all Main Streets (for towns over 50,000 according to WP:50k deserve an article?) The road is also home to 3 Viva transit routes. For 3 Viva routes to travel on one road, this is extremely rare (if not, it is unique to Enterprise Road). Even Yonge Street only merits for 2 routes. Therefore, we can see how much traffic the road is anticipating. As well, the road is home to Markham's first high density developments. Along the road, in Downtown Markham, there will be high rises. There has been no high rises before in the Town of Markham, and this will be Markham's first time. Now cultural aspect wise. Enterprise Road, along with other local streets within Downtown Markham (i.e. Montgomery High Street) will consists of pubs and cafes, resembling to a typical European City Centre. These are cultural values. In addition, there will be a Central Park (mimicking New York City), and "luxury shopping" (from Bloor Street in Toronto). Culture? Enterprise Road will "copy-and-paste" culture values from Europe, New York City and Toronto. All of these quoted from the Downtown Markham's site, so are these cultural importance? Absolutely yes. Simple generic municipal infrastructure? Absolutely no. Would something that is planned since 1992 be considered as a simple generic municipal infrastructure? Absolutely no. Other subdivisions in Markham typically go through a "planning period" of 2, maximum 5 years. Downtown Markham? It was planned since 1992, and started to build in 2006. That's a 14 year period. Enterprise Road is the heart of Downtown Markham, an important road we cannot ignore. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 20:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. Per my previous comment. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 20:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• Delete, a rather short road with not a single source establishing its significance to anyone. Currently the road does not pass through "downtown" anything, as "Downtown Markham" is a proposed development. WillOakland (talk) 20:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• It's no longer proposed. The "proposal period" would be in 1992 to 2005. Buildings are well under construction. The Honeywell Office Building on Enterprise Road is long completed. Apartments on the side of Enterprise Road is close to being completed. Rouge Valley Park that passes through Enterprise Road is already laid out. The Viva Bus Rapid Transit System is already in used. The Motorola is already is use as well. Townhouses near the road is also building. The road is already built and painted with four lanes, both directions. Signages of Enterprise Road is already erected. All it needs is the development east of Birchmount Road, and the extension east of Kennedy Road. Downtown Markham is not a proposed development, but a development under construction. There's a sharp difference between the two. Downtown Markham (western section, west of Birchmount Road), was scheduled to be finished by Summer 2008. Proposed and Under Construction. Proposed means To form and put forward a plan" (Webster Dictionary), in other words it means "nothing has been built". Under construction means something's building. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 20:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• FYI I can look up definitions of words myself. There's this thing called the internet, you see. The point remains that (1) the road is currently quite short and (2) Wikipedia doesn't accept notability claims based on what will be in the future. WillOakland (talk) 20:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• FYI There are notability claims at [http://www.downtownmarkham.ca The official site for Downtown Markham] and the road is not short as it is currently under construction for its extension. Then what IS the point of having a template called "future roads" if future notability claims are not accepted. Why would future notable skyscrapers, communities, cities, highways, deserve an article? I KNOW there is such thing as an Internet (here is an article for you to read). If you search Downtown Markham, it's all over the news. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 20:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• That's not an official site; it is run by Scott Thornley + Company, The Remington Group of Companies and Blue Sky Public Relations Inc. Guess who's building downtown Markham? Here's an internet search for "[http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=site%3Amarkham.ca+%22downtown+markham%22 downtown Markham]" within the markham.ca domain, the town's official site. Those five pages of links are far more relevant. Here's a [http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=-site:markham.ca+%22downtown+markham%22 search for the phrase] excluding the town's official site. Not exactly all over the news, but it is there. If you want better links, try looking through the TVO archives for The Agenda and Studio 2, which had the occasional coverage of urban planning issues for the GTA. I'm certain this community was mentioned at least in passing. Mindmatrix 21:30, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• This is indeed the official site. The Town of Markham government has voted and decided to let Remington Group to do the planning and the building. However, the plan and the construction must be approved by the Town of Markham. All the plans and constructions listed on the Downtown Markham website has been approved and official. And not only TVO has the news, the Globe and Mail, 24 hours, 100k Club, and the Canadian Building and Architech had been publishing articles about Downtown Markham within the past year. Prior to 2007, there are more sources that had made references to Downtown Markham, about its cultural aspect, and how it adopted the smart growth technology. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 21:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• One of the reasons this article and Downtown Markham, Ontario are up for deletion is because there are no sources attached to any of the claims made. If there are reliable sources which support the claims (and not just parroting the adcopy of the developer), then provide the citation in the article. Simply stating that they exist is useless - remember that at AfD, your goal is to convice people that know nothing about the subject that it is verifiable and "notable". I'll concede the first point, but you're failing at the second. Also, I'm well aware that the town has simply granted licences to the developers to build, but that doesn't imply the website is "official" - it is simply a marketing vehicle for the developer, nothing more (that is, it is the official development site - the three most prominent links are all to advertise condos and homes). Further, this discussion has strayed way off course, since we should be talking about issues pertinent to Enterprise Drive, not Downtown Markham.
• Regarding the media, I was trying to provide you with sources that are more substantial than simply stating that a development is underway. I already know about the other sources; most of them have little value, and some of them are word-for-word copies of press releases issued by the developer. Find the good ones, and incorporate them into the article. (Aside: since there is no community there right now, there is no "culture" - you can't plan culture.) Mindmatrix 22:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• Yes, one can plan culture, by planning the style of buildings along Enterprise Road. The European style building (which is already approved, well under construction now) depicts the European culture. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
• As well, the [http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/245107 Toronto Star article] gives viewpoint from every single prospective of people involved in the Downtown Markham project. One of them referred to Downtown Markham will have the European sense of downtown to it. Since Enterprise Road is the major main street of Downtown Markham, Enterprise Road will inherit this sense of European culture. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
• That's called architectural style, not culture. The latter is the collection of ever-changing interactions between humans . The fact that a building is modelled after a specific style has little bearing on the cultural development that will occur within or around it. "Depicting" a culture, or using its stylistic components, is not the same thing as the culture that exists and develops. Anyway, I'm not going to debate this any further, as it has no bearing on the AfD here. Mindmatrix 00:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
• Alright, I'll stop the debate for this point right here (after I make my last argument). I admit it's stylistic components, but keep in mind this stylistic component is only unique to Enterprise Road and Downtown Markham, Ontario. It is very rare for anyone to find such style across the GTA (and no, Old Markham Village has an American small town style). Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
• Delete as a nn local road, or merge and redirect into Downtown Markham, Ontario should the latter be kept. It seems this roads only claim to notability is its attachment to a community that is just starting to be built. Resolute 23:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• While merging to Downtown Markham article is a good idea, I think the road is notable to standalone as an article itself, as it is the backbone for the Town of Markham, after all, and for the reasons I listed above. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. -- DoubleBlue (Talk) 23:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete, or merge and redirect into Downtown Markham, Ontario should the latter be kept (per Resoute NoDepositNoReturn (talk) 03:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
• Delete, or merge and redirect into Downtown Markham, Ontario should the latter be kept. This local road does not meet notability requirements at this time. DigitalC (talk) 00:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
• Delete, or merge and redirect into Downtown Markham, Ontario should the latter be kept - per Resolute. A 2km commuter road, possibly to expand to a 6km commuter road, notable how? Let's see the vision actually unfold, since we're not a crystal ball - Google Earth looks like a bunch of clay right now, so there's no actual community to describe. And re "Old Markham Village has an American small town style" - funny that, since the real downtown Markham was preserved as an example of a Canadian small downtown. All those years and I never noticed the US flags flapping in the wind - who'd-a thunk? Franamax (talk) 04:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
• FYI, Google Map is not updated. I bought a new house in northern Markham in 2004, and the house was completed in 2005, and until now, Google Map is not showing the house. Who'd-a thunk? Google Map still uses data from 2005 and 2006. And in 2005/2006, the road hasn't been even built yet. Downtown Markham will use a European style downtown. Old Markham Village uses an North American style (Canada + United States). Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 22:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Key word there is will use. When it does use that style, we definitely should have an article. And actually the original Markham is "small-town Ontario" brick buildings. They didn't exactly roam the continent looking for style tips when it was built. Franamax (talk) 22:46, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

::::But keep in mind the plan proposed by the Remington Group is already approved by the Town of Markham. The plan was to use European style buildings. It is almost definite it will use these types of buildings. And no, I didn't mean they roam the continent to look for style tips. I just meant that the style resembles most downtowns for North American small towns. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:06, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• As noted in WP:OUTCOMES, WP:N and other recent Markham road AFDs, a road's local importance does not generally justify an encyclopedia article. A road needs to transcend the individual town or city it's located in — under most normal circumstances, you have to demonstrate at least a provincial or state level of importance for a road to merit a Wikipedia article. This doesn't have that and never will. Delete. Bearcat (talk) 12:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

: Never? Are you sure? This road could be the first in Ontario to have bus rapid transit and the first road to be public transit-dependent! The road extends throughout Markham, and therefore transcend within Markham. Provincial or state level? Many streets in Toronto that has a Wikipedia article does not have a provincial or state level of importance. In fact, if you were to think about it, only streets like Yonge Street and Queen Street have provincial level of importance. Even concession roads of Toronto does not have a provincial level of importance. So what? Concession roads? There are millions in Ontario. If those articles merit an article, why not Enterprise Drive? Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 22:36, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

::Ottawa has bus rapid transit, therefore this cannot be the first road in Ontario to have bus rapid transit. DigitalC (talk) 06:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

:::But it's the first road with 3 lines of bus rapid transit operating at once to strive for a transit-dependent community. Ottawa's bus rapid transit lines are not striving for that. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 14:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

::::When you say "bus rapid transit", you mean "bus" right? So it looks to me like Eglinton has the 51, 56 and 100 routes, York Mills has the 115, 122 and the 95 express route, Wilson has the 165 C, D and F. Lots of roads have three sets of buses running on them. Franamax (talk) 19:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::Bus rapid transit is something a little different than just a regular bus route; it has a much higher frequency of buses than a normal bus route, and usually involves dedicated bus-only roads or lanes as well. But that would justify an article on the BRT system, not separate articles on each individual road that constitutes part of the network. Frex, the Ottawa Transitway itself has an article, but the existence of the Transitway doesn't singlehandedly confer notability on the likes of Tremblay Road, Albert Street, Slater Street or Waller Street. Each of those still needs to meet WP:N and WP:RS on its own merits. Bearcat (talk) 22:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

::Please start keeping in mind that important to Markham is not, in and of itself, a sufficient claim of notability to justify an encyclopedia article. Bearcat (talk) 22:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.