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Category talk:Music video games

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{{Consensus|A consensus has been found to indicate that the Categorization Guidelines (infra) are to be used in the affixture of the Category:Music video games category tag to articles which fall under the context of musical video games.}}

{{divbox|amber|Categorization Guidelines|

  1. For music game series where a series article exists, tag only the series article (e.g. WikiArticle X) with the appropriate subcategory in Category:Music video games and all of the members of the series with e.g. Category:Series X.
  2. For large (>5 member) music game series without a series article, tag only the first (i.e. oldest) member of the series with the appropriate subcategory in Category:Music video games and all of the members including the first with e.g. Category:Series X.
  3. For all non-series music video games, tag the game with the appropriate subcategory in Category:Music video games.
  4. For music game metaseries encompassing smaller music game series, tag the metaseries article with the appropriate subcategory in Category:Music video games as well as the series article of all series members of the metaseries and all small series or non-series member articles. (NOTE: Do not tag category members of the metaseries with Category:Music video games).
  5. For music game metaseries lacking a series article, tag the first (i.e. oldest) member of the metaseries with the appropriate subcategory in Category:Music video games as well as the series article of all series members of the metaseries. (NOTE: Do not tag category members of the metaseries with Category:Music video games). All of the members of the metaseries including the first should be tagged with e.g. Category:Metaseries X.
  6. For music game series lacking a series article that are categorized under a music game metaseries, tag the first (oldest) member of the series with the appropriate subcategory in Category:Music video games as well.

{{Collapsible list

|title = Quick Reference

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|1 = {{Collapsible list|title=A Series of Questions about the page to be categorized:|frame_style=border:none; padding:1;|list_style=text-align:left;display:none;|1=

Is it a music video game page?

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|2 = {{Collapsible list|title=Definitions:|frame_style=border:none; padding:1;|list_style=text-align:left;display:none;|1=

"music video game page" - A page related to music video games

"article" - A page written according to WP:WIAA that is not a Category

"game article" - An article related to a specific video game that is a music video game

"music video game series" - A video game series related to music video games and included in a Category relating to the aforementioned video game series

"game series article" - An article on the topic of a video game series as a whole

"category" - A non-article page written according to WP:CAT

"Series/Franchise category" - A Category relating to the video game series

"metaseries" - A music video game series containing a Series/Franchise Category relating to a video game series

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{{Collapsible list

|title = Annotated Categorization Guidelines with Examples

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|1 = To illustrate the effect of the above-listed guidelines, simple examples of video games currently under :Category:Music video games or one of its subcategories are here run through the process to determine proper categorization:

1. For music game series where a series article exists, tag only the series article (e.g. WikiArticle X) with the appropriate subcategory in Category:Music video games and all of the members of the series with e.g. Category:Series X.

e.g. - For the In the Groove series, a series article exists: In the Groove (series). This series article is categorized under :Category:Music video games and under :Category:In the Groove series. In the Groove (video game) and In the Groove 2 articles are both placed under :Category:In the Groove series and not under :Category:Music video games. Even though In the Groove (video game) is the first member of the series (see Categorization Guideline #2), this categorization factor is superseded by the existence of the series article.

2. For large (>5 member) music game series without a series article, tag only the first (i.e. oldest) member of the series with Category:Music video games and all of the members including the first with e.g. Category:Series X.

e.g. - For the High School Musical series, no series article exists. As a secondary categorization factor we use series order to determine inclusion in :Category:Music video games. As the High School Musical: Makin' the Cut! article discusses the first and oldest member of the series, it is included in both :Category:Music video games and :Category:High School Musical video games just as if it had been a series article. High School Musical: Sing It! and High School Musical 2: Work This Out DS articles are both placed under :Category:High School Musical video games and not under :Category:Music video games. In this example, the series would fail to be considered "large" since there are fewer than 6 members, however ideally subcategories will have >5 members and will have a series article which would be listed under :Category:Music video games instead of the first member of the series. Categorization Guideline #2 categorizations should be temporary fixes aimed at addressing clutter in :Category:Music video games and a series article should be written or requested as soon as possible. N.B. Even series (such as the High School Musical series) with fewer than 6 members can be properly categorized according to this Categorization Guideline.

3. For all non-series music video games, tag the game with Category:Music video games.

e.g. - For the game Electroplankton, that is not a member of any series, we place it under :Category:Music video games.

4. For music game metaseries encompassing smaller music game series, tag the metaseries article with Category:Music video games as well as the series article of all series members of the metaseries and all small series or non-series member articles. (NOTE: Do not tag category members of the metaseries with Category:Music video games).

e.g. - For the Bemani metaseries, a metaseries article exists: List of Bemani series. This metaseries article is categorized under :Category:Music video games and under :Category:Bemani games. The Bemani metaseries encompasses both the Beatmania series and the Dance Dance Revolution series as well as several smaller series and non-series games. For the Dance Dance Revolution series, a series article exists: Dance Dance Revolution. This series article is also categorized under :Category:Music video games. Similarly, small series and non-series Bemani metaseries member articles, Bemani Pocket, Dance Maniax, DrumMania, GuitarFreaks, Jubeat, Keyboardmania, ParaParaParadise, and Pop'n Music are also categorized under :Category:Music video games. Note: :Category:Dance Dance Revolution games is not categorized under :Category:Music video games.

5. For music game metaseries lacking a series article, tag the first (i.e. oldest) member of the metaseries with Category:Music video games as well as the series article of all series members of the metaseries. (NOTE: Do not tag category members of the metaseries with Category:Music video games). All of the members of the metaseries including the first should be tagged with e.g. Category:Metaseries X.

e.g. - It could be argued that the article, List of Bemani series, is not a metaseries article since it takes the list form. If this view is held, we turn to series order as the secondary categorization factor to determine inclusion in :Category:Music video games. As the Beatmania article discusses the first and oldest member of the series, it is included in both :Category:Music video games and :Category:Bemani games just as if it had been a metaseries article. As above, series article Dance Dance Revolution is also categorized under :Category:Music video games (See Categorization Guideline #4).

6. For music game series lacking a series article that are categorized under a music game metaseries, tag the first (oldest) member of the series with Category:Music video games as well.

e.g. - Under the Bemani metaseries, the Beatmania series lacks a series article. As a secondary categorization factor we use series order to determine inclusion in :Category:Music video games. As the Beatmania article discusses the first and oldest member of the series, it is included in both :Category:Music video games and :Category:Bemani games just as if it had been a series article. In this instance, if we hold the same view as in the example for Categorization Guideline #5, then the Beatmania article serves as both the metaseries article and the series article.

Note on Categorization Guideline #5:

This guideline can lead to surprising results in cases where the oldest member of a metaseries is itself a member of a series with a series article. If, for instance, the Beatmania series had a series article (e.g. Beatmania (series)), and we took the view that List of Bemani series did not serve as a metaseries article but instead that the Bemani series lacked a metaseries article, then Beatmania, Beatmania (series), and Dance Dance Revolution would all be included under :Category:Music video games with Beatmania serving as the metaseries article. This example illustrates the point, made in the example to Categorization Guideline #2, that secondary categorization factor categorizations should be temporary fixes aimed at addressing clutter in :Category:Music video games and in all cases proper series/metaseries articles should be written or requested as soon as possible.

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Music video game category

Can someone remove the Dance Dance Revolution games now that I added the DDR series as a subcategory? Thank you! --Yono (talk) 03:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

:15px Done. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 09:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

GH Redundancy

The "Guitar Hero" category is included twice. Once as a direct subdirectory and a second time as a subcategory of "Guitar music games". Isn't this redundant? -- TRTX T / C 17:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

:This is an interesting question for me right now. According to the common practice we've been using this is redundant but it is an exception to the general "no redundancy" rule. The reason for this is that in this rare case, this redundancy is required by both the User benefit and Secondary categorization rules. See below. -Thibbs (talk) 13:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Categorization and subcategorization

I've been working on a scheme to formalize the categorizations we've been using as common practice at :Category:Music video games. I have gone through WP:CAT and WP:SUBCAT in detail and I think I have come up with a good solution. My proposed scheme can be found at my sandbox and I would welcome any and all comments here or at my talk page (here might be preferable in terms of transparency). Please contribute to this discussion so that we can gain community input on this decision. Thanks! -Thibbs (talk) 13:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

:Update: Having received some good feedback and seeing no further objections I have finalized the guidelines and am hereby moving them here. Further apropos I have decided that the background in their development might be of some use (however insignificant) to future editors, thus I am moving a brief version of this background into talk here as a subsection of this section. In order to ensure that users will be able to use the categorization guidelines in the decision-making process most readily, I have decided to place them at the top of the page and I will leave them unsigned. As this is a consensus decision, my individual role is insignificant, but by way of ensuring transparency I hereby sign them from a distance. -Thibbs (talk) 23:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

=Background of development=

Currently :Category:Music video games subcategories may be further subdivided into four rough groups:

  1. Series/Franchise subcategories - (Bemani, Guitar Hero, High School Musical, and In the Groove)
  2. Gameplay subcategories - (Dance, Drumming, Guitar, and Karaoke)
  3. WikiEdit subcategories - (:Category:Music video game stubs)
  4. Other - (:Category:Music video game soundtracks and :Category:Music generated games)

For Group 1 subcategories it has been common practice to include only the article on the series as a whole (the "series article") under :Category:Music video games, and place all members of the series under the appropriate subcategory. I think this is a good practice as it reduces clutter while conforming to both the "Secondary categorization" and "Topic article" rules.

The categorization guidelines serve as a consensus set of instructions that formalize what has been merely common practice and, further, they reduce the amount of monitoring required of concerned editors.

For Group 2 and 3 subcategories, practices have varied and the categorization guidelines address categorization/subcategorization of these articles in a definitive manner.

Group 4 subcategories are harder to lay rules for insofar as they represent disparate topics only united through catchall grouping. Nevertheless, the "Common sense rule" should always prevail and, when in doubt, general rules from the categorization guidelines should apply to articles found under these subcategories.

Notes:

Applying the "Diffusing large categories" principle

Hi, I was going to remove the double-redundancy related to :Category:Music video games when I saw that this redundancy is so intended.

This category is growing too large and the "Diffusing large categories" principle should be applied. In my opinion the user doesn't get any benefit if an article is tagged both as "Music video games" and as "Dance video games". Moreover, it gets more complicated to know which articles are tagged as "Music video games" and NOT as "Dance video games". --Micru (talk) 16:21, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

:Technically neither term subsumes the other. Not all music games involve dancing and some dance-related games don't involve meaningful connections to music. There are a few video games that include dance pads but where the dance pad isn't used for input to the game. For these games the players are supposed to dance but the music is not a necessary part of the game. These games are pretty uncommon obviously and practically speaking the vast majority of dance games are music video games. In fact to be more specific the vast majority of dance games are rhythm games. So I see that you have a point from a practical perspective. If you think the "Categorization Guidelines" (above) should be changed to comport more with the "Diffusing large categories" principle then I don't see it as a huge problem. Feel free to make an appropriate change. -Thibbs (talk) 18:45, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::Thanks for the fast answer. The guidelines you developed are appropriate, the only thing is that we should try to move all the articles one level up for the sake of usability. In my edition I tried to reflect this, hopefully it is not geting too complicated... I agree with you that most dance video games are rythm games, however we should try to find a middle ground between the "accurate definition" and what the users expect to find, which, at the end of the day, is what defines the genre. There will be exceptions, but I expect them to be as few as possible and we could leave them in the parent category :Category:Music video games. --Micru (talk) 09:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

New categories

I have created the following new categories:

What do you think? Do you have any suggestions?

I'm also thinking of a new category (:Category:Video games with music as plot-relevant) to include games like Eternal Sonata, Amadeus Revenge and similars. Would that be too much? --Micru (talk) 12:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

:Interesting new ideas. The "Hand-controlled rhythm games" and "Hand-controlled dance video games" might be rather redundant as most dance games are rhythm games too. Also most games that have dance pads (like DDR for example) also allow for hand-control with either specialized controllers like [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DDR_HandController.jpg this] or with a normal gamepad. So the line might be kind of hard to draw here. For "Puzzle-music video games" a definition is definitely needed since all music games have been classified as puzzle games back in the early days of the genre when "music games" were not recognized as a distinct genre. Also I think "Music creation video games" would really benefit from a definition. (I notice, for example, that you placed all of :Category:Turntable video games‎ within "Music creation video games". Without a definition for "Music creation video games" I'm not sure that's accurate. The Beatmania games, for example, are traditional rhythm games with only a turntable-shaped controller. I can't see how they would be much different from games like DDR, Pump It Up, or Bust a Groove) You might be interested in this similar-sounding category: :Category:Music generated games. As for "Video games with music as plot-relevant" I think this category might suffer from over-breadth. In many traditional rhythm games, the frame-story plot is about a group of young people who have to participate in a number of dancing competitions or performances. The songs, then, could easily be considered part of the plot. I do like the idea of somehow creating a category for games like Eternal Sonata, and Amadeus Revenge, etc. Perhaps this would work but the definition would have to be crafted appropriately. In general my advice is to add definitions/descriptions to all the categories per WP:CAT#Content of category pages. Good luck. -Thibbs (talk) 14:54, 20 July 2010 (UTC)