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Category talk:Neo-Norman architecture#Disambiguating Neo-Norman architecture

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Disambiguating Neo-Norman architecture

Neo-Norman architecture can refer to i) revival of 11th- and 12th-century Norman architecture and ii) revival of Architecture of Normandy#Vernacular domestic styles and the Wikipedia and Commons categories are linked by Wikidata and contain a mixture of both. The first seems to be the primary topic. Any ideas on how the categories should be split? Would it make sense to move the neo-medieval architecture to *:Category:Romanesque Revival architecture?

TSventon (talk) 22:38, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

I have also found an en Wikipedia article and some information on fr Wikipedia

  • Norman Revival architecture says {{tq|Norman Revival architecture is an architectural style. In the United Kingdom, "Norman style", also known as "Lombard style" may be essentially a synonym for Romanesque Revival architecture.}} (Citation needed)

:It concludes {{tq|"Norman" is a term used in conjunction with the style that emerged from the Pacific Northwest Region of the United States Forest Service; this style "had no clearly identifiable architectural prototype, but reflected the influence of the English Cottage and Norman Farmhouse styles."{{cite web|url={{NRHP url|id=64000698}} |title=USDA Forest Service Administrative Buildings in the State of Oregon and Washington built by the Civilian Conservation Corps. / Depression-Era Buildings |author=E. Sail Throop|date= September 1984}}}}.

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  • :fr:Architecture romane normande#Architecture néo-normande says {{tq|Dans la lignée des mouvements historicistes, néo-romans et néo-gothiques, un style architectural s’inspire de l’architecture normande romane du XIe au XIIe siècle, en Normandie et en Angleterre. De nombreux monuments en portent les signes plus ou moins réinterprétés, notamment des églises, mais aussi d'autres types de bâtiments. Manchester en comporte deux exemples avec son ancienne Bourse ainsi qu’une synagogue à Fallowfield.}} (Référence nécessaire) (In line with the historicist, neo-Romanesque and neo-Gothic movements, an architectural style is inspired by Norman Romanesque architecture from the 11th to the 12th century, in Normandy and England. Many monuments bear its signs more or less reinterpreted, notably churches, but also other types of buildings. Manchester has two examples with its old Stock Exchange as well as a synagogue in Fallowfield. Via Google translate)
  • :fr:Style néo-normand is a redirect to :fr:Architecture néo-traditionnelle# Néo-normand, which says {{tq| L'architecture néo-normande est un style de villas créé selon Claude Mignot par Jacques Baumier à Houlgate dans la seconde moitié du XIXe siècle. Forme normande du régionalisme, elle se caractérise par des bâtiments construits à partir d'une structure à pan de bois traditionnelle, mais avec des matériaux modernes.}} (Référence nécessaire) (Neo-Norman architecture is a style of villas created according to Claude Mignot by Jacques Baumier in Houlgate in the second half of the 19th century. A Norman form of regionalism, it is characterized by buildings constructed from a traditional half-timbered structure, but with modern materials. Via Google translate)

TSventon (talk) 23:02, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

  • French architecture#Regional architecture says {{tq|After World War I, Americans romanticized the traditional French farmhouse, creating a style known as French Normandy. Sided with stone, stucco, or brick, these homes may suggest the Tudor style with decorative half timbering (vertical, horizontal, and diagonal strips of wood set in masonry). The French Normandy style is distinguished by a round stone tower topped by a cone-shaped roof. The tower is usually placed near the centre, serving as the entrance to the home. French Normandy and French provincial details are often combined to create a style simply called French Country or French Rural carved or embossed on mouldings, sconces, and banisters.}} Added [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=French_architecture&diff=prev&oldid=138689022 here]. TSventon (talk) 17:34, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|Johnbod}} I hope you know more about this than I do as you added a mention of "Norman farmhouse style" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norman_architecture&diff=prev&oldid=842202167 here]. TSventon (talk) 01:59, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

::Yes "revivalist versions of vernacular or later architecture in Normandy, such as the "Norman farmhouse style" popular for larger houses." - one version of your ii) above. [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Norman+farmhouse+style%22&client=firefox-b-e&sca_esv=bf2e6ac576f1796d&ei=fSSsZ5DsLK6phbIP7sePsQU&ved=0ahUKEwjQnr7-pr2LAxWuVEEAHe7jI1YQ4dUDCBI&oq=%22Norman+farmhouse+style%22&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGCJOb3JtYW4gZmFybWhvdXNlIHN0eWxlIjIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABSPMuUPIKWOIYcAF4AZABAJgBswOgAe0EqgEHMC4xLjQtMbgBDMgBAPgBAZgCA6AClwbCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgIFEAAY7wXCAggQABiiBBiJBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcHMC4yLjQtMaAHpQU&sclient=gws-wiz-serp Plenty of examples here], few looking anything much like actual farmhouses in actual Normandy. Johnbod (talk) 04:35, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

:::{{ping|Johnbod}}, can you suggest any ideas on how to disambiguate categories for i) and ii)? TSventon (talk) 23:07, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

::::What exactly is the problem? Please state it clearly. We have :Category:Neo-Norman architecture in the United States and a Canadian one. I don't know we have any articles on French revivalist efforts. The category note at :Category:Neo-Norman architecture says of the style "It has nothing to do with the version of Romanesque architecture called Norman architecture in English" - that's perhaps a slight overstatement, but I don't think myself that category should be added to the Romanesque Revival tree. Btw, you quote ""Norman style", also known as "Lombard style"" - I've never heard the latter, used of the UK. Johnbod (talk) 00:42, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{ping|Johnbod}} I started off in Commons, actually with :Commons: Category:Norman architecture in Uruguay, which should be Neo-Norman architecture. I wanted to ask for wikiproject input before starting a Commons category discussion. What I see as a problem is that

:::::*I believe that the WP:Primary topic for “Neo-Norman architecture” is type i)

:::::*:Commons:category:Neo-Norman architecture says it is about type i) buildings, but contains a mixture of type i) and type ii) buildings.

:::::*:en:Category:Neo-Norman architecture says it is about type ii) buildings, but links to Neo-Norman architecture about type i) buildings and contains a type i) building, St Michael and All Angels Church (Howick, Northumberland)

:::::*The subcategory :en:Category:Neo-Norman architecture in the United States contains type i) buildings, Bunch-Walton Post No. 22 American Legion Hut, First Parish Church (Weston, Massachusetts), Vassar Chapel and Wyndcliffe

:::::The reference to "Lombard style" appears to have been written by an American editor.

:::::I can only find two French neo-Norman buildings on en Wikipedia, Château de Montvillargenne and Trouville-Deauville station, but fr articles on French neo-Norman buildings have numerous Commons images.

:::::TSventon (talk) 12:27, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

:{{re|TSventon}} I agree that i). is the primary topic for Neo-Norman and Norman Revival (but not for {{lang|fr|néo-normand}} in French, I think). Romanesque Revival is an unambiguous term for that style, and St Michael and All Angels Church, Howick should be moved from :Category:Neo-Norman architecture to :Category:Romanesque Revival church buildings in England. Note that the article Norman Revival architecture exists, as a stub with little more information than there is at {{section link|Norman architecture#Neo-Norman}}. But the term "Norman Revival" is still best avoided in categorisation, partly because I can find it also in use for ii)., e.g. [https://www.vancouverheritagefoundation.org/house-styles/norman-revival/ here]. {{pb}} For ii)., an unambiguous term would be preferable. Could I suggest "French Provincial" as the closest thing to one in relatively wide use? We already have the article French provincial architecture (covering both the original types of building and the revival style) and :Category:French Provincial architecture in Alabama. {{pb}} "Lombardic" was a revival style in Britain, but it might have been confined to Nonconformist chapels; see [https://coflein.gov.uk/en/site/6434/ here] for a discussion of it in the work of one Welsh chapel architect. I doubt that "Lombardic" and "Norman" were used interchangeably to describe the same buildings, but both were aspects of the Romanesque Revival. Ham II (talk) 08:46, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

::{{re|Ham II}} I think that French provincial architecture looks like a good option, for one thing the article actually has references. Logically, Norman revival architecture should be a subset of French provincial revival architecture. However, some books distinguish two different styles, e.g. French Eclectic and French Norman in Harris{{cite book |editor-last1=Harris |editor-first1=Cyril M. |title=Dictionary of Architecture and Construction |edition=4th |date=2006 |publisher=McGraw Hill |isbn=978-0071452373 |page=441 |url=https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/_/fM5aRKFSQvYC |access-date=16 February 2025}} and French Provincial and French Normandy in Hopkins. {{cite book |last1=Hopkins |first1=George D. |title=Creating your architectural style : designing and building a fine home |date=2009 |publisher=Pelican Publishing Co |location=Gretna, La. |isbn=978-1589807198 |pages=113–114 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=OGJgquCEEZIC&dq=french+provincial+architecture&pg=PA114 |access-date=16 February 2025 |archive-date=17 July 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220717173249/https://www.google.com/books/edition/Creating_Your_Architectural_Style/OGJgquCEEZIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=french+provincial+architecture&pg=PA114&printsec=frontcover |url-status=live }} However, I don’t think the article covers regional/provincial architecture in France usefully.

::I have moved all the 11th- and 12th-century revival architecture to Romanesque Revival categories. I think French néo-normand architecture should be moved to :Commons:Category:Regionalist architecture in France as it does not have much in common with American French Normandy architecture.

::In Commons we have :Commons:Category:French Eclectic architecture, :Commons:Category:Neo-Norman architecture and :Commons:Category:French provincial architecture, which should probably be merged.

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::TSventon (talk) 22:37, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

:::These things are very hard to pin down. There is an inevitable degree of ambiguity/interpretation. Take Penrhyn Castle. It has indeed been described as Romanesque Revival. But I personally prefer Neo-Norman, as I think that better conveys what Hopper was trying to achieve. However, what I think matters not, it's what the sources say. Which helps you not one whit. I shall see if I can come up with a more useful comment. KJP1 (talk) 20:46, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

::::I think the requirements of categorisation are different from those of prose. Penrhyn Castle can still be called Neo-Norman in the body text of its article, and that style rather than the one based on French provincial architecture is the primary topic for the term in English. But in categorisation the term is best avoided because of the possibility of its being used for buildings in the other style, resulting in a jumbled category of unclear scope – so it's better to use the broad term Romanesque Revival, which encompasses the primary sense of Neo-Norman, in category names. Ham II (talk) 08:20, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

:::::I now think that the best option is to turn Category:Neo-Norman architecture into a disambiguation page like :Category:Apple. I think that "French Provincial architecture" (North American revival style) can be confused with can be confused with "French provincial architecture" (French architecture outside Paris) so "French Eclectic" may be better. TSventon (talk) 07:05, 25 February 2025 (UTC)