Talk:149th Armored Regiment

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Wattsriots-burningbuildings-loc.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 00:51, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

As the page has been moved as requested at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/149th Armor Regiment I am transcluding the GA review here.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 02:59, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

{{Talk:149th Armor Regiment/GA1}}

As the link in the wikiproject header is incorrect I am transcending the review here.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 02:53, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

{{Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/149th Armor Regiment|class = A}}

G'day {{u|Kirill Lokshin}} or {{u|AustralianRupert}}. This page has been moved during the ACR and now the links to it and the GAN are broken. I know I should know what we do in this situation, but my mind has gone blank. Something to do with redirects? Help. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:03, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

:G'day, PM, I've implemented the Article history template, which should fix the link to the GAN. The ACR page could be redirected to the new name, but I'd suggest just page moving the ACR to the new name without leaving a redirect as it is probably a more tidy approach. But that might make Milhistbot misunderstand when it comes time to close. {{ping|Hawkeye7}} Thoughts? AustralianRupert (talk) 05:38, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

• Hunnicutt's book - Stuart: A History of the American Light Tank, Voume 1 and Pg. 395 clearly mentions that the 192nd Tank Battalion became the first American troops to engage in tank to tank combat. The 192nd and 194th Tank battalions were combined with the 17th Ordnance Company to form the Provisional Tank Group (149th), but, it was specifically 5 M3 tanks of the B-company of the 192nd Battalion, which, engaged with the 4th Tank Regiment of Japanese. ∯WBG^converse 10:46, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
• :This happened on 22 December 1941.
• :
• :In contrast, the five Japanese Type 89A tanks were destroyed on 1 January 1942. ∯WBG^converse 10:53, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
• ::I have temporarily restored the content. I am not seeing on google books a [https://books.google.com/books?q=editions:ISBN0891414622&id=JzEhAQAAIAAJ clearly readable version of this book] mentioned above.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 11:58, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
• :::You can safely assume that I am not making up stuff and that I'm literate enough. If you need a copy of the scanned page, wikimail me. ∯WBG^converse 11:59, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
• :::Hunnicutt writes:-{{talkquote|After the attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent Japanese landings on Luzon, the Provisional Tank Group moved north to support the United States and Philippine troops and to cover their retreat to the Bataan peninsula. On 21 December. Major (later Lieutenant Colonel) Theodore F. Wickord, commanding the 192nd Tank Battalion, received orders to move the battalion north and to send B Company on ahead for a special mission. During the movement, Captain Donald Hanes, commanding B Company, expected to refuel his tanks at Gerona and again at Bauang. However, fuel was not provided at Gerona and the enemy was rapidly approaching Bauang. The 26th Cavalry (Philippine Scouts) was operating in the area and they had already been under attack by enemy aircraft.{{pb}}When reports reached General Wainwright that an enemy motorized force was approaching Damortis, he directed Captain Hanes to engage them. Since the company was almost out of gasoline. the available fuel supply was combined to provide enough to fill up a single five tank platoon. Once again, the short cruising range of the light tank M3 was a major disadvantage. Led by Lieutenant Ben R. Morin, the fivetanks moved north out of Damonis toward Agoo. Here they ran into elements of the Japanese 4th Tank Regiment becoming the first American troops to engage in tank versus tank action in World War II. The lead M3 left the road to maneuver. but it was hit and set on fire. Lieutenant Morin was wounded and captured along with his crew. The remaining four tanks also were hit by 47mm fire. but they were able to withdrew. Later they were destroyed by enemy aircraft. Despite this tragic start, the 192nd fought skillfully during the remainder of the Withdrawal toward Bataan.{{pb}}The Provisional Tank Group headquarters and the 194th Tank Battalion, commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Ernest B. Miller, had moved north on Christmas Day. The 194th operated to the west of highway 3 with the 192nd to the east. Both battalions fought a series of rearguard actions and were the last troops into the Bataan peninsula. The 192nd crossed the bridge over the Culis river into Bataan during the night of 6-7 January 1942 as the last unit before the bridge was blown.}}
• :::{{Cite web|url=https://chicago.suntimes.com/2016/6/24/18434222/rev-benjamin-ben-r-morin-soldier-who-survived-japanese-pow-camps-dead-at-94|title=Rev. Benjamin ‘Ben’ R. Morin, soldier who survived Japanese POW camps, dead at 94|last=O'Donnell|first=Maureen|date=2016-06-24|website=Chicago Sun-Times|access-date=2019-06-20}} writes:-{{talkquote|Rev. Morin, the first U.S. tank commander to engage enemy forces in World War II ....Lt. Morin was leading five tanks through the jungle to attack the Japanese .... With that, he made history. Morin led “the first U.S. tank engagement of World War II,” said Lt. Col. Brad Leighton, a spokesman for the Illinois National Guard}}
• :::You might further wish to read:-
• ::::{{Cite book|url=https://books.google.co.in/books?id=VlfMQk-wekkC|title=Rolling Thunder Against the Rising Sun: The Combat History of U.S. Army Tank Battalions in the Pacific in World War II|last=Salecker|first=Gene Eric|date=2008-04-16|publisher=Stackpole Books|isbn=9780811743624|language=en|page=9-14}}
• ::::{{Cite book|url=http://worldcat.org/oclc/921236058|title=The doomed horse soldiers of Bataan : the incredible stand of the 26th Cavalry|last=Woolfe, Raymond G., Jr., author.|isbn=9781442245341|oclc=921236058}} (I too need to read this).∯WBG^converse 12:13, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

::::::Surely, the soldiers of both units want to make the claims of being the first of this, or the the last of that. For instance the claim of the 192nd being the last to go across the bridge contradicts claims by other reliable sources which states it was parts of the 194th that were the last to cross.

::::::The 192nd can continue its claim, and the differing claims can be acknowledged.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 12:36, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

:::::::The sources used by you are all less reliable than my ones. Please learn to assess quality of military scholarship. There is not an iota of doubt that your claims (and the hook) were factually incorrect. ∯WBG^converse 12:56, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

::::::::That's an entirely subjective argument. As the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=149th_Armored_Regiment&diff=902664507&oldid=902664346 source removed] is to Armor, and a reprint of an article from that journal. Therefore, if there is doubt, it's because a reliable source was relied on for its accuracy. And as historians [https://www.neh.gov/humanities/2017/summer/feature/historians-disagree-about-everything-or-so-it-seems don't always agree], there is a reason why there is contradiction from the sources utilized by WBG and at Tanks of the United States. Again the sources at Tanks of the United States are not clearly accessible for verification and thus one must WP:AGF. Thus the argument made at User talk:The Rambling Man#Main page redux is subject to scrutiny; whereas sources removed are clearly readable to all who would want to access them.

::::::::Additionally the reversion of a reversion of the content removal contradicts WP:BRD, and is movement towards WP:EW. Moreover, please see WP:AVOIDYOU, as it can be construed that WBG is not discussing a difference of what reliable sources state, but about myself. WBG can say there is "not one iota an iota of doubt", but when different reliable sources state different things, then there is doubt. Thus why we are having this discussion.

::::::::I acknowledge that there are claims that the 192nd are what they are. But in removing the content WBG removed what is verified to reliable source. And it's OK for different reliable sources to state different things.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 00:24, 21 June 2019 (UTC)