Talk:1948 Palestine war#rfc 647AC09

Boutboul could you clarify [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1948_Palestine_war&diff=prev&oldid=1283086414 this edit], which you summarized as {{tq|Reworded lead to reflect that "First Arab–Israeli War" is the common academic and diplomatic term; clarified that "Nakba" refers to the consequences of the war;|q=y}}? Common in which academic and diplomatic literature? First Arab–Israeli War redirects to 1948 Arab–Israeli War, the international stage of the war that only began May 1948. What is the claim about the meaning of Nakba based on? The first documented use of the term was published while the war was ongoing, so it's implausible that its meaning would be restricted to later consequences. إيان (talk) 10:55, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

:Yes, First Arab–Israeli War refers to the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, not the 1948 Palestine war.

:The Nakba was not a consequence of the war but something that happened during or as a part of the war. Neither is Nakba an alternate name for the war itself.

:@Boutboul, please seek consensus for changes which have been reverted rather than restoring them, per BRD and onus. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:34, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

:* {{tq|Common in which academic literature}}: {{cite encyclopedia |title=1948 Arab-Israeli War |encyclopedia=Encyclopædia Britannica |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/1948-Arab-Israeli-War |access-date=30 March 2025}}{{cite book |last=Morris |first=Benny |title=1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War |year=2008 |publisher=Yale University Press |location=New Haven |isbn=978-0-300-12696-9 |url=https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300151121/1948/ |access-date=30 March 2025}}{{cite book |title=International Law and the Arab–Israeli Conflict |chapter=1948 Arab-Israeli War |editor1-last=Shehadeh |editor1-first=Raja |editor2-last=Quigley |editor2-first=John |publisher=Cambridge University Press |year=2010 |url=https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/international-law-and-the-arabisraeli-conflict/1948-arabisraeli-war/BA3845FBBF68F3C790B6419215F4E67C |access-date=30 March 2025}}

:* {{tq|And diplomatic}}: {{cite web |title=The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 |website=Office of the Historian |publisher=U.S. Department of State |url=https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war |access-date=30 March 2025}}

:* {{tq|The first documented use of the term was published while the war was ongoing, so it's implausible that its meaning would be restricted to later consequences.}} So please find a better wording

:Michael Boutboul (talk) 19:02, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

::3/4 of the sources you're citing have in their title "1948 Arab-Israeli War". You need to self revert. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:14, 30 March 2025 (UTC) Edited 19:15, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Yes, that's correct. I'll change from "First Arab-Israeli War" to "1948 Arab-Israeli war", but the meaning is the same. Michael Boutboul (talk) 17:39, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::::There is already an article for 1948 Arab–Israeli War, the international phase that began after the declaration of Israel and entry of Arab regular armies after months of what had been a civil war within Mandatory Palestine. Restoring stable version until there is consensus for a change. إيان (talk) 19:23, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::"Restoring stable version until there is consensus for a change." Thank you إيان. I think there is consensus to remove from the first footnote the text "Palestinians refer to the events of 1948 as the Nakba (Arabic: النَكْبَة), literally 'the catastrophe'" Do you agree? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:30, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::I'm not convinced. Nakba is synonymous with 1948 and has to be addressed right away in the article. Plan Dalet was Nakba. The depopulation of cities and villages were Nakba.

::::::I'm open to considering different ways of addressing it, but Nakba is often used for the events of the long 1948, events essential to and inextricable from the war. إيان (talk) 19:37, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Fair enough, I don't feel strongly about including it or removing it either way personally. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:45, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Another reason it's important to address early on—historians have noted how the competing frameworks of the Nakba - War of Independence dichotomy have dominated the historiography of 1948. إيان (talk) 20:00, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::So why did you revert it again, despite the existing consensus here?

:::::::::On Wikipedia, when a topic can have multiple titles, these are usually mentioned in the text itself, not relegated to a note—why should this article be treated differently? Moreover, all my edits were properly sourced, and our responsibility is to follow reliable sources, not individual beliefs. Michael Boutboul (talk) 19:50, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::The Nakba-War of Independence dichotomy is appropriate in the footnote, and I could be open to adding something about "1948 Arab–Israeli War" or "First Arab–Israeli War" there if you want, or there could be a brief dedicated section on terminology.

::::::::::But again, there's already an article entitled 1948 Arab–Israeli War for what began May 1948 and we can't say that that article is about it and also this article is about it. You'll notice that a preponderance of sources using the term "1948 Arab–Israeli War" also adopt the view that the war started May 1948. The scope of this article is more comprehensive. These matters could also be addressed in a terminology section, though it is also somewhat addressed in the historiography section. إيان (talk) 15:32, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::This information is explained in the lede already. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 15:45, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::Respectfully, the majority of serious sources do not date the beginning of the 1948 war to May 1948, but rather to 30 November 1947, immediately following the UN Partition Plan vote. You’re asserting several points quite firmly, but without providing any sources to support them. I would encourage you to substantiate your claims, as that is the basis for any content on Wikipedia. Michael Boutboul (talk) 08:22, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Currently, this is addressed in the disambiguating hatnote, but this could also be a short section on names/terminology/division before the Background section. إيان (talk) 19:27, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Please check Wikipedia:Article titles#Treatment of alternative names: {{tq|By the design of Wikipedia's software, an article can only have one title. When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. If there are three or more alternative names – including alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historic names, and significant names in other languages – or there is something notable about the names themselves, a separate name section is recommended.}}

:::::I assume we can retain three alternative names in the first paragraph: '1948 Arab–Israeli War' (the most common and neutral), 'War of Independence', and 'Nakba'. Michael Boutboul (talk) 20:05, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::You're not listening. The term 1948 Arab-Israeli War refers to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:09, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Thank you for your comment. I believe it's important to emphasize that what matters here is not personal interpretation but what reliable sources actually state. For instance, International Law and the Arab-Israeli Conflict notes: {{tq|The 1948 war is regarded by Israel as its war of independence [...] The Arab population of Palestine regard the war as a catastrophe, al-Nakba.}}" Similarly, Encyclopaedia Britannica explains: {{tq|"1948 Arab–Israeli War [...] For Israel, the war is remembered as the War of Independence [...] For Arabs, the war is remembered as ‘the Nakba.’" These sources clearly show an equivalence between the terms 1948 Arab–Israeli War, War of Independence, and al-Nakba, depending on the perspective.}}

:::::::The term 1948 Palestine War is less frequently used in academic sources, but when it is, it refers to the same historical event. Our role on Wikipedia is to reflect this range of terminology accurately and neutrally, based on what the sources actually say—not on individual preference. Michael Boutboul (talk) 21:23, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::We literally have two separate articles for the 1948 Palestine war and for the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The lede of this article explains the differences. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:32, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::The fact that an error appears on Wikipedia does not justify continuing to perpetuate it. As I clearly demonstrated in my previous message, the most reliable sources indicate that the 1948 Arab–Israeli war is sometimes referred to as the War of Independence, or, from another perspective, as the Nakba. These terms refer to the same historical event, viewed through different narratives.

:::::::::Once again, what matters is not what we personally believe, nor what Wikipedia happens to state, but rather what the most authoritative sources affirm. This is, after all, the cornerstone of Wikipedia itself. Michael Boutboul (talk) 05:53, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::The sample of four sources in which Morris features twice is obviously not comprehensive nor is it representative.

::::::::::It’s not an error, and this is not the first time these names and divisions have been discussed. Onceinawhile might know of where those discussions are. إيان (talk) 10:55, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::I have no intention of engaging in an edit war. That said, what you’ve done is not in line with Wikipedia’s guidelines—it is not permitted to remove properly sourced content, especially when no alternative sources are provided in return. I’m happy to provide additional references if needed, but as it stands, two reliable sources are certainly better than none. Michael Boutboul (talk) 14:43, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::These conversations have already been had, and ad nauseum. Selfstudier might also know where they are. I've seen them but I don't know/remember where. The tradition is that sourcing isn't supposed to be necessary for material in the introduction as the introduction is supposed to be built on material in the body. As I've written earlier, I'd be supportive of a section on terminology/divisions/classification. إيان (talk) 15:21, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::Selfstudier is currently under a topic ban. It is therefore not particularly sound to rely on what Selfstudier may have written in the past. It’s also worth noting that, per Wikipedia guidelines, it is not necessary to include references in the lead if the material is properly sourced in the body of the article—which, in this case, it is not. In the meantime, I’m still waiting for the sources you mentioned. If you cannot provide them, I kindly invite you to restore my latest edit. Michael Boutboul (talk) 20:41, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::I wasn't aware, but I wasn't citing anything they said either. Just thought they might know where the previous discussions were, as a courtesy to you. I took the time myself and was able to find a few discussions and afford you such a courtesy, with sourcing you might like to consult: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1111387913#Requested_move_5_September_2022:~:text=Latest%20comment%3A-,2%20years%20ago,-11%20comments 2022] and 2019.

::::::::::::::As IOHANNVSVERVS and I have repeatedly stated, there's already an article at 1948 Arab–Israeli War. I'm not convinced that it is right to make any changes to the introduction of this article, 1948 Palestine war, and it doesn't seem like anyone else is either. Again, a section on terminology might be appropriate. إيان (talk) 15:34, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::You may remain unconvinced, but so far you haven’t provided any arguments grounded in reliable secondary sources. On Wikipedia, personal opinions aren’t what matter—what counts is what the sources say. Michael Boutboul (talk) 11:53, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::Did you not consult the previous discussions I went to pains to provide you? إيان (talk) 14:05, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::Those are discussions about page titles, not about the lede. Could you please provide reliable sources that clearly explain that the "1948 Palestine War" is a distinct event from the "War of Independence", the "Nakba", or the "1948 Arab–Israeli War"? If you cannot, I kindly ask that you restore my previous edits. Michael Boutboul (talk) 09:57, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::Some of the sources you yourself have cited explain the difference. The lede of this very article explains this.

::::::::::::::::::This has been explained to you repeatedly. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:18, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::So in this case, could you kindly point out the exact sentence from the source you are referring to? From my understanding, there are at least three reliable sources stating that it is the same event:

:::::::::::::::::::International Law and the Arab-Israeli Conflict notes: "The 1948 war is regarded by Israel as its war of independence [...] The Arab population of Palestine regard the war as a catastrophe, al-Nakba."

:::::::::::::::::::Similarly, Encyclopaedia Britannica explains: 1948 Arab–Israeli War [...] For Israel, the war is remembered as the War of Independence [...] For Arabs, the war is remembered as ‘the Nakba.’"

:::::::::::::::::::And Benny Moris in 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War: "The 1948 War - called by the Arab world the First Palestine War and by the Palestinians al-nakba (the disaster), and by the Jews the War of Independence - was to have two distinct stages: a civil war, beginning on 3o November 1947 and ending on 14 May 1948, and a conventional war, beginning when the armies of the surrounding rounding Arab states invaded Palestine on 15 May and ending in 1949."

:::::::::::::::::::And a less reliable book 50minutes,. The 1948 Palestine War: The Launch of Conflict in the Middle East (History): "The first conflict, called the Palestine War or the War of Independence"

:::::::::::::::::::These sources clearly show an equivalence between the terms 1948 war, First or 1948 Arab–Israeli War, War of Independence, and al-Nakba, depending on the perspective.

:::::::::::::::::::As @إيان suggested we could add a section on terminology/divisions/classification and at least three titles in the lede as explained in Wikipedia guidelines. I would suggest "1948 Palestine War", "First/1948 Arab-Israeli war" and "Nakba". Michael Boutboul (talk) 07:40, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::::I did suggest a small section on terminology/divisions, but I did not suggest {{tq|at least three titles in the lede|q=y}}, especially since—again—the title you are most passionately promoting already has its own article. As far as the lede is concerned, it could be mentioned along with the others in the footnote at most. إيان (talk) 16:07, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

This event occurred in 1948. Wikipedia doesn't make revisionist history. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Israel%27s_War_of_Independence Making Israel's War of Independence a redirect] to this article conveys the impression that Israel does not exist at all, only that there was a 1948 Palestine war, and the entire area that is identified on maps, recognized by the United Nations, and has over 6 million citizens does not exist. Using this naming convention would be like Americans referring to the Vietnam War (I know, Vietnam conflict, whatever) as the 1973 United States war. Or the American War of Independence as the 1776 United Kingdom War. There's a saying about victors making history or something. Israel won the war. They became the nation, country, of Israel in 1948. Prior to that, Israel wasn't recognized as a country. Wikipedia is saying that Israel still isn't a country. This is incorrect. FeralOink (talk) 17:08, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

:All due respect but none of this makes sense. It also seems to violate WP:NOTAFORUM.

:We go by what reliable sources say and most sources call this war the 1948 Palestine war. Israeli war of independence is an alternate (POV) name of this war, as stated in the first footnote in the lede of this article. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:39, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::Please provide "reliable sources saying call this war the 1948 Palestine war" as I already provided sources saying something different. Michael Boutboul (talk) 09:44, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Oh no! Boutboul is gone! Okay, I acknowledge, User:IOHANNVSVERVS, that the folks over at WikiProject Israel were MUCH more brusque than you ever were (well, one of them was; the other two were nice, and gave me a pleasant technical explanation about redirects). This motivated me to investigate and learn that there hasn't been an Israel's War of Independence article since IZAK created a [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Israel%27s_War_of_Independence&diff=prev&oldid=235484389 redirect from it in the dark ages of Wikipedia] (2004). I think I'll just focus on cleaning up references for the Plan Dalet D article, as there is a lot of duplicate sourcing and inconsistent dates there, and leave you to this war article. Thank you for your patience.--FeralOink (talk) 00:30, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

What was wrong with it? I think it's quite useful to explain the nomenclature to the reader as it can be quite confusing. Alaexis_¿question? 15:26, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

:I'm not opposed to a brief terminology section. The one added by @Boutboul was much too long, poorly sourced, and inaccurate. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 15:31, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

::In this case, you might consider suggesting alternative sources. That said, it’s somewhat difficult to understand how Benny Morris could be regarded as a poor source, given that he is likely the most frequently cited historian on the subject. I would also kindly encourage you to consider undoing your revert. Michael Boutboul (talk) 15:54, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Benny '[https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2004/03/the-lonely-historian/303118/ we-should-have-completely-ethnically-cleansed-Palestine]' Morris self-identifies as a Zionist and there are certainly a variety of circumstances that should be considered with regard to why he might be cited more than others; he is not a "master source." For what must be like the fourth or fifth time by now, there are plenty of sources to consider in the places where this has already been thoroughly discussed (such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1111387913#Requested_move_5_September_2022:~:text=Latest%20comment%3A-,2%20years%20ago,-11%20comments here in 2022] and here in 2019). إيان (talk) 23:04, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

::::If you believe Benny Morris is not a reliable source, please feel free to raise the issue at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. As it stands, he is widely regarded as one of the most prominent historians on the 1948 war. Could you kindly point me to any sources that challenge this view regarding the terminology of the 1948 war? So far, I’ve only seen Wikipedia links, which—as everyone knows—are not considered reliable sources. I’d be happy to include them in the terminology section. Michael Boutboul (talk) 06:25, 20 April 2025 (UTC)