Talk:2025 IndyCar Series#FLAGCRUFT

These are the actions needed as far as I can tell.

• Revisions prior to 17:30, 23 May 2024 on Draft:2025 IndyCar Series are not substantive and can be discarded under CSD G6.
• Revisions between 09:12, 16 May 2024 and 13:59, 14 June 2024 are moved to Draft:2025 IndyCar Series.

Pinging GhostOfDanGurney as they are primarily involved with this. Also, I would ask that you not perform cut-and-paste moves in the future due to this kind of cleanup being needed to repair the revision histories. Putting in a technical move request is a better option. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:13, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

In the lists of drivers for the season, Callum Ilott is listed as driving the 83. Yet from what I've seen, his number hasn't been confirmed. Could someone provide a reliable source saying he will drive specifically the 83? Otherwise wouldn't it be better to state that his number is gonna be the 83 or the 90? Ollie111123 (talk) 14:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure why the IndyCar wiki editors are the only wants to have a problem with abbreviations when referred to in articles, but I repeated this on the 2024 article and again in 2025. DRR should be Dreyer & Reinbold Racing, it was changed in 2024 but Marshall Pruett referred to it as DRR-Cusick (did not have Cusick Motorsports as a whole) in an article. It has been Dreyer & Reinbold Racing spelled out since 2000. I believe it should be listed as Dreyer & Reinbold Racing/Cusick Motorsports as the press releases (not the titles) on DRR's websites state the offical team name that way. The 2024 article should also be changed to Dreyer & Reinbold Racing/Cusick Motorsports. Grahaml35 (talk) 03:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|Grahaml35}} [https://www.indycar.com/-/media/Files/2024/NICS/06-500/indycar-entrylist-V1-2024Indy500.pdf This] is the entry list for the 2024 Indianapolis 500, the last race which the entry in question entered. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 07:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The standard on Wikipedia in the Motorsport class template for rookies is a light blue. I am proposing to implement that color standard here and in all of the Road to Indy championship pages. SteeledDock541 (talk) 15:11, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

:Strong oppose as no good reason to change from a long-standing usage has been proposed - There is no indication that this template is actually a standard; that would imply that there was a clear consensus that can be demonstrated was achieved somewhere. The template referred to came as a result of a TfD discussion from New Years 2023 in which the only consensus I can see was to merge various separate templates together. WikiProject:AOWR has been using the currently-coloured box for Rookies for much longer than that, and does so without using a template, but with wikicode. ({{Color box|orange|R|border=orange}}). Not everything needs to be hyper-standardized; nuance is good. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 00:14, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::Really? If you actually look at other championships like the Formula Regional European Championship, F4 British Championship, Formula Regional Middle East Championship, F4 Spanish Championship, Eurocup-3, Italian F4 Championship, and more, they all use the standardized blue rookie box established in the Motorsport class template. Why do you think the template exists then if it's not a standardized system? It is. Opposing it just because the orange color box has been used for a long time is not a valid reason. That's quite literally why I am proposing a change to the standard blue color box ({{motorsport class|Rookie}}), because it is changing a long time use of a particular color box in the Road to Indy articles. Also, the light blue of the motorsport rookie box contrasts much better than the orange of the current box, so it makes the text in the standings much more visible. SteeledDock541 (talk) 00:39, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:::This is IndyCar, its own professional championship series with its own ladder system. What goes on at F4 or the other F1 feeder categories has (or should have) absolute zero bearing here. If we really want to invoke WP:OTHERSTUFF (which we shouldn't), 2025 NASCAR Cup Series doesn't use a box at all, simply a bolded "R" in parenthesis. This is an absurd argument proposing a needless aesthetic change, purely because of OTHERSTUFF. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 02:05, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Ok. My main proposal is in the USF Pro Championships, not necessarily IndyCar. I don't mind if IndyCar keeps using the orange box. I only brought it up here because nobody responded to my talk page message in the 2025 USF Pro 2000 Championship talk page. SteeledDock541 (talk) 02:08, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|SteeledDock541}} you are blatantly in violation of WP:ONUS, The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. Please cease your edit warring and self-revert your insistent inclusions. The MOS is policy and needs to be adhered to unless good reason exists not to, and you have not provided that. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 18:25, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

Team nationality for a national championship is irrelevant to said championship and and an exercise in nationalism if flags were added to prior seasons, that is also inappropriate. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 18:28, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:And if you're citing WP:OTHERSTUFF like WEC and F1, those are international championshipns in which teams do represent nationalities. This is NOT the case in IndyCar. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 18:32, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

There at no point was any consensus for inclusion, so your citing of WP:CON to me on my usertalk flies in the face of WP:ONUS. That you could see that one other user had added the flags recently, your first move should have been to come here rather than continue reverting for inclusion. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 18:42, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

So far, I have a policy-based reason for maintaining the status quo of exclusion (MOS:FLAGCRUFT), while the reasons for inclusion appear to be WP:OTHERSTUFF. If I am wrong, please let me know. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 18:45, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:The fact that it is a national championship is irrelevant to the inclusion of flags for teams. Many national championships including the Super Formula Championship have flags for teams. Also, IndyCar technically isn't a national championship since they also race in Canada. The flags for teams are a visual informational tool showing readers the country that team is based, not "an exercise in nationalism" as you are claiming.

:Since we are at an impasse, I am taking this to a dispute resolution for an external opinion. SteeledDock541 (talk) 23:15, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

::Strongly agree with SteeledDock541. Calling the innocuous addition of flags to show the origins of the teams as an "exercise in nationalism" is ridiculous and GhostofDanGurney's comments seem unnecessarily combative. 192.252.142.154 (talk) 19:34, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

:::When 12 of 12 teams are based in the US and 9.5 of those 12 teams are owned by US-money, it's utterly needless and yes, inherently nationalistic. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 01:58, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::@GhostOfDanGurney, I also agree with @SteeledDock541 that there's nothing wrong here with adding flag icons for teams. There is a good reason, which is that the teams are based in specific countries and their nationality is notable; it gives interesting surrounding context about the team and is something people often want to know (as suggested by the other similar articles that have team flagicons). The flagicons allow the reader to glean this information at a glance, rather than having to consult each team article individually, so they have a utilitarian purpose. I have no special familiarity with car racing and even I can see that.

::I don't think the nationality provision of MOS:FLAGCRUFT is especially relevant here—the text of the provision makes it clear that it's about cases where the nationality of the subject is insignificant and editors are tempted to accompany it with flag iconography arbitrarily in order to "claim" it for the pride of a specific nationality (as is a common point of contention with famous historical figures, celebrities, works of art, etc.). I'm totally sympathetic to the desire to minimize the potential for nationalist strife between editors, but I don't think that's a risk in this case, especially considering that team flags have been added on other similar articles without causing conflict.

::I also don't think it's especially appropriate to dimiss SteeledDock541's points about other national championship articles as WP:OTHERSTUFF in this case. For one thing, this isn't a question of WP:OTHERSTUFF because that's about article deletion; I think you have WP:OTHERCONTENT in mind. If you look at the text of WP:OTHERCONTENT, you'll see that it says, "While consistency with other pages is not a good argument by itself, comparisons between pages are often made in order to illustrate a more substantial argument; as such, comparative statements should not be dismissed out of hand unless they lack any deeper reasoning." In this case, the fact that other similar articles have team flagicons suggests that a broader consensus exists in favor of or at least permitting their use (as I think SteeledDock541 was right to point out), it gestures towards the fact that people find them useful and desirable, and it shows that they don't tend to result in nationalist strife, so there is more to the comparison than just consistency for consistency's sake.

::Last but not least, at the point that both SteeledDock541 and @Hendra498 tried to add the team flags, and you were the only one reverting both of them, that did actually suggest that a weak consensus existed already in favor of keeping the team flags, so if anyone should have come to the talk page instead of modifying the article it was you. Saying that "there at no point was any consensus for inclusion" seems rather disingenuous to me in light of that. In any case, you now have significantly stronger evidence that consensus is in favor of keeping the team flags.

::As a side note, @SteeledDock541, DRN only really works well if all parties involved are willing to participate at the outset; you can't really drag someone there if they're not interested, which so far it doesn't seem like GhostOfDanGurney has been. Since the conversation was between you and one other editor, you could also have used 3O (in which case I might have shown up and posted the above). If GhostOfDanGurney does want to take it as far as DRN after this point, I'm willing to participate as well, but it would be preferable to settle things here if possible. 🍉◜⠢◞ↂ🄜𝚎sₒᶜa𝚛🅟ම𛱘‎🥑《 𔑪‎talk〗⇤ 06:58, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Yeah that's fair. I had a discussion with GhostOfDanGurney on his talk page (which he has since deleted) before he added this topic on this talk page, so we've talked about this before coming here. Plus, I didn't want it to become an edit war, so I just thought of doing DRN. Although you're right, I probably should've used 3O. SteeledDock541 (talk) 13:08, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Yeah, I saw that talk page conversation from your DRN filing (the conversation is here if anyone's curious what we're talking about). Also, yeah, 3O is nice because it just introduces another (presumably distant and unbiased) participant into the discussion directly, which is often enough to settle things and keeps it all on the article talk page. With DRN, the moderator will tend to stay more aloof from the debate itself so you won't necessarily get as definitive of input from them; plus, participation is voluntary so it only really works well if everyone wants to do it. If there's too many people for 3O but you still feel like it would help to have more, you can get a similar effect by posting on a relevant Wikiproject page or similar with a brief message neutrally noting what the topic of the dispute is, linking to the talk page thread, and saying that more input would be appreciated or the like. There's also the heavier option of the RFC of course (e.g. you could start an RFC in MOS Talk asking if motorsport team names should be accompanied by flagicons showing country of origin in tables of entries, results, etc. always/typically/no rule/not by default/never, or something like that). You might know some or all of this already, I see you've been around for a while, but I figured I would mention it all just in case you haven't had much need of the resolution mechanisms for content disputes. 🍉◜⠢◞ↂ🄜𝚎sₒᶜa𝚛🅟ම𛱘‎🥑《 𔑪‎talk〗⇤ 16:21, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

:::1) I strongly disagree that the nationality of racing teams participating in IndyCar is notable per RSs. In certain championships such as IMSA SportsCar Championship or FIA World Endurance Championship, cars have a decal placed on them indictating the nationality of the team or manufacturer, and subsequently, in WP:RSs, teams in those championships are referred to as "[insert country here]-flagged". This is simply not the case in the IndyCar series. The placing of flags therefore fails FLAGCRUFT as we would be emphasizing UNDUE nationality.

:::2) There also is great potential for "nationalistic strife" here as there is ambiguity in regards to Arrow McLaren, Prema Racing and Juncos Hollinger Racing, all of which operate from bases in the US, but have varying levels of ownership from outside the US. Which nationality is then chosen for each? People will disagree with this, as they often do in the above example articles in point 1. Every other team in this championship is unambiguously American (however, once again, the fact that they are so is not emphasized in RSs). We need not point out that the vast majority of teams of an American championship are American, especially when RSs do not emphasize this.

:::3) There is no use of flags at 2025 NASCAR Cup Series or any previous season of that championship, which is similarly a US-based, national championship with a single race in a bordering country.

:::4) The status quo of no flags goes back to about 2018 or 2019. So I reject any and all premise that a consensus in any way exists otherwise.

:::5) Rushing to DRN was very premature without first waiting for other editors to reply here first. It is utterly unneeded and I will not participate at this moment. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 22:42, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Do you have any examples at hand of RS that illustrate this re IndyCar? I guess to some extent there's a question of how much the sources need to emphasize the nationality of the teams before we say it clears FLAGCRUFT, but I'm curious what the relevant sources even look like first. @SteeledDock541, if you have IndyCar-related sources you feel do support the use of team flagicons, I think that would be great too. I've tried looking around some myself but I'm not really sure I'm consulting the right things.

::::Also, SteeledDock541, I'm interested to know how you made the calls for McLaren/Prema/Juncos in e.g. this revision; I see there is some ambiguity, like how Juncos is described as "Argentine-American" in their article's lead. 🍉◜⠢◞ↂ🄜𝚎sₒᶜa𝚛🅟ම𛱘‎🥑《 𔑪‎talk〗⇤ 03:31, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::@GhostOfDanGurney was not the only one who reverted the flagicons, as I also do not believe that they're relevant, nor add value. As I'm just now entering this conversation, please allow me a day or two to digest all the comments and familiarize myself with the various WPs quoted before providing a more detailed response. Assadzadeh (talk) 07:58, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::Okay, that's good to know. If you have illustrative sources you'd like to cite showing the relevance or lack thereof of team nationality in IndyCar coverage etc., I'm definitely curious at this point. My guess is that it will be extremely hard to settle this if everyone goes based on their taste in flagicon usage or the like, but it might be easier if we look more to RS for guidance. Taking a cursory look at the sources for this article I wouldn't say it's overwhelming in either direction but maybe somewhat more on the side of deemphasizing nationality; for example the article [https://www.indycar.com/news/2024/04/04-09-prema "PREMA Racing To Join NTT INDYCAR SERIES in 2025"] has a photo of a Prema car in Italy-themed livery, but neither of the Juncos sources characterize them as any particular nationality. An article [https://racer.com/2021/08/03/juncos-to-return-to-indycar-full-time-as-juncos-hollinger-racing "Juncos to return to IndyCar full-time as Juncos Hollinger Racing"] cited in the Juncos article does describe Ricardo Juncos as Argentine, but says nothing in that regard about the team itself. It might also be worth noting that the tables on [https://www.indycar.com/Results indycar.com/Results] don't indicate the nationality of the teams or the drivers. I'd be interested to know if there are more IndyCar sources that do highlight team nationality; Prema might be kind of an outlier because they seem to emphasize their Italian heritage. 🍉◜⠢◞ↂ🄜𝚎sₒᶜa𝚛🅟ම𛱘‎🥑《 𔑪‎talk〗⇤ 08:42, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Doing a quick search, the only site I found with flags that would generally be considered reliable would be [https://www.autosport.com/indycar/teams/ Autosport/Motorsport] - They list all teams but Prema as from the United States. Esw01407 (talk) 15:20, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::The PREMA article does state that it is an Italian team, but then goes on to say that "the PREMA Racing INDYCAR team will operate out of a state-of-the-art facility located in Indiana." Likewise, the Juncos article refers to the team as an Argentinian outfit (based on Ricardo Juncos' nationality, but does not mention Hollinger's nationality), but then goes on to say that it is based in Speedway, Indiana. So, how are nationalities assigned for these two teams? Also, during the broadcast of IndyCar races (especially true during drivers' introductions at the Indianapolis 500), they often mention a driver's nationality, but I have never heard of them referring to the nationality of the racing team. Assadzadeh (talk) 18:56, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Since Arrow McLaren is completely owned by the McLaren Group, they are British. Ricardo Juncos is Argentinian, but he relocated his entire team (Juncos Racing at the time) to the United States in 2003. JHR therefore runs under an American flag. Prema's headquarters are in Italy, you don't base the team's nationality on just one location of the company's operations. The notion that you factor in these teams' locations of their IndyCar operations as a way of defining the flag they run under is not correct. You base it off of the location of their headquarters, which for Prema and McLaren, are not in America.

:::::If you feel like you need sources or more concrete information to use flags, that's fine. If we can't really find much more information, then we can just keep the page as it is without flags. SteeledDock541 (talk) 21:57, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::As an avid IndyCar fan since 1982, I have never paid attention to, nor cared about, a racing team's nationality. Although, to be honest, this was likely due to the fact that most, if not all, were U.S. based and therefore nationality was never mentioned in the media. That's why I don't think that listing a team's nationality is relevant, nor notable. Should more international teams join the IndyCar Series, then we can have this conversation again. Assadzadeh (talk) 23:01, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I referred all the way back to 2008 IndyCar Series (when IRL and Champ Car reunited) and only the 2009, 2010, and 2016 articles show flagicons for the racing teams. If it makes a difference, I can look back even further, but as of now there doesn't seem to be a consensus to include them. Assadzadeh (talk) 00:20, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Ok in the 2010 and 2016 articles, there was one team in each article that wasn't American, and that is the case in 2025 with Prema. So, based on those previous articles, can we not add the flags for 2025 since not all teams are American? SteeledDock541 (talk) 02:41, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::@SteeledDock541 My concern with adding the flags to just the 2025 article is that we're still left with only a handful of years having them. I also checked the Indianapolis 500 articles going back to 2000, and they don't include flagicons either. So, unless you're willing to add the flags for the missing years' articles as well, then my suggestion would be to remove them altogether. Assadzadeh (talk) 03:03, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::I mean I don't mind doing that for the other articles. Although, I'm not sure why you can't establish a new precedent going forward to use flagicons in the article instead of basing it on previous season articles.

::::::::::I also want to wait and see what the others in this discussion think before taking any action. SteeledDock541 (talk) 03:11, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::I still don't see a need to add flagicons for the racing teams, but if you want to proceed down that path for 2025 and the preceeding years, then best wishes. Assadzadeh (talk) 03:36, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::I also see no reason for the flags to be added. Unnecessary changes for the sake of making changes. Esw01407 (talk) 12:38, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::I'm not sure what you mean by {{tq|unnecessary changes for the sake of making changes}}, but if you actually read my previous comments, you would see that there is logic and reasoning behind it. However, if you feel like they don't need to be added, that's fine, but what's the point of going and saying I'm proposing this change just for the sake of it? It's completely false. SteeledDock541 (talk) 13:07, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::Here's how things look to me at this point. I think there is some support in RS to use team flagicons at least for 2025, because we do have a source (the one Esw01407 linked to, [https://www.autosport.com/indycar/teams/?y=2025 this one]) that provides their own team flagicons. We could easily just follow their lead and use U.S. flags for every team except Prema. That heads off the possibility of nationalist quibbling because you can just point to the source as a neutral reference (although I have to say too that at least on this article I don't think we've really seen any nationalist infighting re team nationalities anyway). For some years, that source uses U.S. flags for every team, and I think for those years it would arguably be needless to use team flags. This implies an approach for each year where if you can cite a source unambiguously characterizing the nationalities of the teams for that year that indicates at least one team as outside the U.S., you can use that source as a guide to add team flagicons and we'll permit it, whereas if the only available sources characterize every team for that year as U.S.-based or just say nothing about their nationality, it implies that team flagicons should be omitted. I rather like that approach because it's based on RS, is pretty cut-and-dried, and provides a balance between the perspective that the team flags are useless (which they arguably are when all the teams are U.S.-based) and that they provide valuable information (which they arguably do when the team pool is multi-national). I don't think there's any reason why we necessarily have to either have or omit team flags for every year homogeneously; sometimes they make sense, sometimes they don't, and that way both sides get their way sometimes. 🍉◜⠢◞ↂ🄜𝚎sₒᶜa𝚛🅟ම𛱘‎🥑《 𔑪‎talk〗⇤ 13:55, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::First of all, we only have one source that supports using team flagicons. That hardly meets the requirement of RS, which states, "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources" (note that it's plural). Also, adding flagicons for some years, but not others, would only cause confusion. A reader unfamiliar with the IndyCar Series would not know that missing flagicons indicates that all the teams are U.S.-based. So, if we're going to go down this path, then I would insist that flagicons be included for all years where we can find multiple reliable sources. Assadzadeh (talk) 15:01, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::Yeah I agree, relying on just one source isn't enough and adding flags for one season and not another doesn't make sense. You need to have consistency in the articles. Since the common consensus seems to be not to add flags, let just end the conversation here and agree not to add them. SteeledDock541 (talk) 15:04, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::Well, if even you aren't interested at this point, that only leaves editors from the preexisting pro-flag side that haven't continued to participate or never showed, so yeah, I guess we might as well call it settled. I kind of like the flags myself now that I've seen them, but I don't really have much of a dog in the race honestly having little organic connection to this topic area. I can't help myself from noting in passing though, although it's immaterial here at this hour, there's no reason an individual point in an article necessarily needs more than a single good source—that passage is referring to an article as a whole, and although it's not policy, the widely-cited WP:OVERCITE has, "A good rule of thumb is to cite at least one inline citation for each section of text that may be challenged or is likely to be challenged," something many, many articles stick to. I wouldn't want anyone to leave out good content somewhere for fear of one being too few. (We do actually have a second source that highlights that Prema is Italian, also, if it came to that.) It does seem like the heavy preponderance of IndyCar sources don't focus on team nationality though—it seems maybe like, somewhat moreso than with U.S. high school football for example, but probably closer to that than to say, the World Cup—so if we're going on the balance and everyone wants to keep the flag usage consistent between years, I understand leaving them out on that basis. 🍉◜⠢◞ↂ🄜𝚎sₒᶜa𝚛🅟ම𛱘‎🥑《 𔑪‎talk〗⇤ 16:44, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

I posted a message at Wikipedia:WikiProject American Open Wheel Racing in hopes of getting more participation. Assadzadeh (talk) 17:33, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:@SteeledDock541 Don't give up just yet. I have further reviewed wiki articles going back to 1996 when the split occurred between CART and IRL and it seems that most of the articles prior to the 2008 merger include flagicons for the racing teams. So, if you're willing to take on the task of filling in the missing pieces, then I'll support the effort and assist as needed. My suggestion would be to work backwards, as it will become harder to find reliable sources. Even the [https://www.autosport.com/indycar/teams/?y=2025 Autosport article] seems to be incomplete for the earlier seasons. Assadzadeh (talk) 19:00, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::@SteeledDock541 Are you going to cite the sources of all the changes you just made by adding those Flag icons? Esw01407 (talk) 22:32, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Most of the teams from the 2010s have articles that indicate in the intro where they are from. There are website with stats that I used like [https://motorsportstats.com/team/schmidt-peterson-motorsports/summary/series/ntt-indycar-series Motorsport] and [https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/database/teams/beck-motorsports/ Motorsport Magazine]. There are others where I went straight to the team's website using the [https://web.archive.org/web/20170222193957/http://www.juncosracing.com/juncos-racing-announces-entry-in-101st-running-of-the-indianapolis-500/ wayback machine]. SteeledDock541 (talk) 22:37, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::I just finished doing that, but again, what does doing that have to do with the 2025 article that we are having a discussion on? Is it for the sake of consistency like we discussed previously? SteeledDock541 (talk) 22:38, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::I can't support making such changes while the discussion is ongoing. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 23:05, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::The whole idea of a listing of what is esentially just American flags is nonsense. Utter garbage. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 23:08, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

::::@GhostOfDanGurney I too thought that it would just be a listing of American flags, until I actually started looking at some articles. For example 1996 Indy Racing League shows that all the teams were U.S.-based, which is what I expected, since one of the goals of the new series was to draw more American drivers (and by default American teams). However, as I moved forward, I was surprised that one or two international teams competed in subsequent years. So, although I initially did not see any value in adding the flagicons, I now think otherwise, as long as reliable sources are found.

::::@SteeledDock541 Just to be clear, wiki articles cannot be used as the basis to determine the nationality of a team (in case that's what you meant), but the external websites can be. Assadzadeh (talk) 00:50, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Actually I was referring to your previous comments where you were saying I could add the flagicons for previous IndyCar seasons and that's you'd assist. I was unsure why having flagicons for all those season articles matters to this discussion and 2025 season article. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your rational is that if we are implementing flagicons, the implementation should be consistent across all IndyCar season articles. SteeledDock541 (talk) 01:03, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::Yes, that is my rational, although I realize that we can only go so far back before reliable sources dry up. Assadzadeh (talk) 01:23, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Ok, since the implementation of flags for the previous IndyCar seasons (starting at 2008) has been completed, can we implement flags for the 2025 page, or not yet? SteeledDock541 (talk) 02:29, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Still not needed. Also, I have a major problem that you didn't add citations in those articles you just edited. It might contain those sources in individual articles, but not in those series articles. I think you should fix that before moving forward, it's very reasonable since you've pushed extremely hard to get these flag icons.

::::::::You have also not addressed how your going to handle the other teams yet, are you going to continue to push for Arrow McLaren to be British, when other sources list them as a US team. Even Arrow McLaren's own [https://www.linkedin.com/company/arrowmclaren/about/ Linkedin] list them being in Indianapolis. (This also complicates the article split your trying to do over at Arrow McLaren, as this page has the founding date as 2001, the same date as Sam Schmidt Motorsports.) In fact according to IndyCar's own website, PREMA is HQ'ed in [https://www.indycar.com/teams/PREMA-Racing Fishers, Indiana]. What sourcing to you intend to use as the base for these flag icons? Esw01407 (talk) 03:11, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::@Esw01407 I have already addressed this above in a previous comment:

:::::::::{{tq|The notion that you factor in these teams' locations of their IndyCar operations as a way of defining the flag they run under is not correct. You base it off of the location of their headquarters, which for Prema and McLaren, are not in America.}}

:::::::::Arrow McLaren is 100% owned by McLaren Racing and the Mclaren Group. Sam Schmidt and Ric Peterson are no longer involved with the team. Prema is fully an Italian team. Just because their IndyCar base in is Indiana does not somehow make them an American team. That is like saying Red Bull Racing isn't Austrian, Mercedes isn't German, Haas isn't American, and Alpine isn't French because all these teams operate in the United Kingdom. That's not the case because you base it off of their headquarters. SteeledDock541 (talk) 03:30, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::I have provided you sources that do not agree with what you said, these specific IndyCar teams are based in the United States, most in Indiana. Autosport/Motorsport is a reliable source that shows American Flags, except for PREMA. Please also cite the flag edits in the other years, or they will be undone. Esw01407 (talk) 10:47, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::Here are just some sources that prove otherwise:

:::::::::::Arrow McLaren:

:::::::::::[https://www.sportskeeda.com/team/arrow-mclaren-sp Source 1] - Slightly outdated ownership listing, but shows that team is British based

:::::::::::[https://racer.com/2025/01/03/schmidt-peterson-bid-farewell-to-arrow-mclaren Source 2] - Shows current ownership structure

:::::::::::[https://www.indycar.com/teams/Arrow-McLaren Source 3] - Even the IndyCar website lists McLaren Racing as the team owner

:::::::::::Prema Racing:

:::::::::::[https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2024/04/prema-racing-to-join-ntt-indycar-in-2025/ Source 1] - States team is Italian

:::::::::::[https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/news/exclusive-sub-f1-giant-prema-indycar-2025/10638017/#:~:text=Team%20principal%20Rene%20Rosin%2C%20son,away%20from%20Indianapolis%20Motor%20Speedway. Source 2] - Also states team is Italian SteeledDock541 (talk) 13:28, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::Fine, I've tried my best here. Are you going to go back now and cite all those other years accordingly, per my request? Esw01407 (talk) 13:37, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::Yeah I can do that. It will probably take a while, so if you're willing to assist me, I'd greatly appreciate it. The process will go by much faster if we have multiple people doing instead of just me. SteeledDock541 (talk) 14:08, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::I will not be able to assist. Esw01407 (talk) 14:13, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::Even the sources don't agree with each other.

:::::::::::::McLaren source 1 states "Arrow McLaren SP is a British-based motorsports racing company", but shows "Base/Headquarters Indianapolis, Indiana" in the infobox.

:::::::::::::McLaren source 3 shows "Headquarters Indianapolis, Indiana"

:::::::::::::Prema source 1 refers to the outfit as "junior formula racing team based in Italy", but then states "will operate out of a “state-of-the-art” facility located in Indiana."

:::::::::::::Prema source 2 refers to the team as an "Italian-based juggernaut", but then goes on to state "Prema’s massive headquarters will be based in Fishers, Indiana"

:::::::::::::So, how are these sources being used to justify that they're not U.S.-based? Assadzadeh (talk) 14:19, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::Sportskeeda is a highly unreliable source that is redlisted at WP:RS/PS. Source 3 is IndyCar.com, so is primary. The fact that this is a debate is the exact "nationalistic strife" I've been trying to avoid by opposing these flags in the first place. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 15:25, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

:@Assadzadeh, thank you for this action, as it caught my attention. I am also against the inclusion of flags for teams, which I am inclined to consider as cruft within the context of Indy car racing. The supposed nationality of the teams is of little to no real impact on how those teams and series operate, and through my readings of this discussion and sources being posted, is often ambiguous. RegalZ8790 (talk) 16:43, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

::Here's where I stand on this topic. At first, I was against adding flagicons for the teams because I didn't see any value in it. As I started reviewing prior years' articles, I noticed that some did have flagicons and was intrigued to find that there were in fact non-U.S. teams. So, I suggested that prior years' articles be made consistent and have flagicons added. However, based on the latest discussion and the inconsistency in the sources, I'm questioning the accuracy of flagicons in prior years' articles and would recommend removing them altogether, not just in this year's article. Assadzadeh (talk) 17:29, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I feel that is a logical and reasonable action, and I support such a decision in regards to current and historical seasons. Could I suggest making a comment on the main AOWR page summarizing these points? As the "center" of our community, I think it would be good to have things on record in that location. RegalZ8790 (talk) 23:43, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

::::@RegalZ8790 Sounds good to me. I added a summary to the comment on the main AOWR page. Is that sufficient? Assadzadeh (talk) 00:10, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Will the editor who created the Driver Standings table finish the job by providing a key/explanation for the superscript notations? There is a description of multiple ways drivers earn points per lap, but they are NOT tied to a superscript character. One superscript character is an "L", often with a leading numeral, but NO indication if it stands for "laps led"(1 point each) or for "most laps led"(2 points), or if the accompanying numeral indicates the number of laps led. There are also asterisks(*) with NO EXPLANATION. If YOU created this, please explain it for the rest of us.Gil gosseyn (talk) 23:23, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

:I do not understand your problem - there is a table explaining the in-line notation right next to the standings. Hmnphl (talk) 08:37, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

::I think I know what the problem is. When I view the page on my mobile device in portrait mode, the Driver Standings table is on the left, with the Color/Result table on the right, stacked on top of the In-line notation table. However, when I view the page in landscape mode, the two tables on the right disappear. The issue is with how the wikicode is trying to combine all three tables in one.

::I have now moved the Color/Result and In-line notation tables below the Driver Standings table, which are viewable in both portrait and landscape modes. Please let me know if you are still seeing the problem. Assadzadeh (talk) 13:58, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:::@Finn Shipley Do you have a reason why you reverted my edit? Assadzadeh (talk) 00:55, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I thought there was an issue with how it was displayed on 2025 IndyCar Series when I looked at pages that had the table cause they all looked the same compared to the one on that particular page; I'll revert it back to that if its an issue Finn Shipley (talk) 03:47, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::@Finn Shipley It's OK, you can leave it as is for now, unless the other user still has an issue. Assadzadeh (talk) 03:56, 16 June 2025 (UTC)