Talk:African humid period#Merger discussion with Neolithic subpluvial
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{{Copied |from=African humid period |from_oldid=996997233 |to=Tipping points in the climate system |date= 18:21, 2 October 2022 |diff=https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tipping_points_in_the_climate_system&oldid=1113675928 }}
{{Did you know nominations/African humid period}}
{{DYK talk|22 February|2019|entry= ... that changes in Earth's orbit around the Sun over 10,000 years ago led to the disappearance of the Sahara desert?|nompage=Template:Did you know nominations/African humid period}}
{{refideas
| state = collapsed
|[https://scholar.google.de/scholar?as_ylo{{=}}{{CURRENTYEAR}}&q{{=}}%22saharan+humid+period%22+OR+%22Holocene+humid+episode%22+-%22african+humid+period%22&hl{{=}}de&as_sdt{{=}}0,5 en1]
|[https://scholar.google.ch/scholar?as_ylo{{=}}{{CURRENTYEAR}}&hl{{=}}de&as_sdt{{=}}0%2C5&q{{=}}%22african+humid+period%22&btnG{{=}}&oq{{=}}%22afric en2]
|[https://scholar.google.ch/scholar?as_ylo{{=}}{{CURRENTYEAR}}&hl{{=}}de&as_sdt{{=}}0%2C5&q{{=}}%22afrikanische+feuchteperiode%22+OR+%22afrikanische+feuchtperiode%22+&btnG{{=}} de]
|[https://scholar.google.ch/scholar?as_ylo{{=}}{{CURRENTYEAR}}&q{{=}}%22periode+humide+africaine%22&hl{{=}}de&as_sdt{{=}}0,5 fr]
|[https://scholar.google.ch/scholar?as_ylo{{=}}{{CURRENTYEAR}}&hl{{=}}de&as_sdt{{=}}0%2C5&q{{=}}%22periodo+umido+africano%22&btnG{{=}} it]
|[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl{{=}}de&as_sdt{{=}}0%2C5&as_ylo{{=}}{{CURRENTYEAR}}&q{{=}}%22african+humid+periods%22+-%22african+humid+period%22&btnG{{=}} Plural]
|[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl{{=}}de&as_sdt{{=}}0%2C5&as_ylo{{=}}{{CURRENTYEAR}}&q{{=}}+%22Holocene+humid+period%22+OR+%22Holocene+Pluvial%22+OR+%22Holocene+Wet+Phase%22+OR+%22Kibangien+A%22+OR+%22Makalian%22+OR+%22Nabtian+Wet+Phase%22+OR+%22Nabtian+period%22+OR+%22Neolithic+pluvial%22+OR+%22Nouakchottien%22++OR+%22subpluvial%22+AND+-%22african+humid+period%22&btnG{{=}} Alternative terms]
}}
{{refideas
| state = collapsed
|[http://www.episodes.org/journalArchiveArticle.do "Will Greenhouse Green the Sahara?"]
|[https://books.google.de/books?hl=en&lr=&id=FftDDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA23&dq=%22p%C3%A9riode+humide+africaine%22&ots=Iwr2g3PaYQ&sig=iXaIdobQi30JV0EhnbRgQJwfSyI#v=onepage&q=%22p%C3%A9riode%20humide%20africaine%22&f=false On crocodiles]
|[https://e-docs.geo-leo.de/handle/11858/00-1735-0000-0001-BA62-D For the research history]
|[https://geojournals.pgi.gov.pl/asgp/article/view/12319/10793 If we want to correlate events in disparate parts of the Sahara]
|[https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Zhongshi_Zhang/publication/265791589_Aridification_of_the_Sahara_desert_caused_by_Tethys_Sea_shrinkage_during_the_Late_Miocene/links/5458b7120cf2cf5164833037/Aridification-of-the-Sahara-desert-caused-by-Tethys-Sea-shrinkage-during-the-Late-Miocene.pdf "Aridification of the Sahara desert caused by Tethys Sea shrinkage during the Late Miocene"]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000292971830048X "Whole-Genome-Sequence-Based Haplotypes Reveal Single Origin of the Sickle Allele during the Holocene Wet Phase"]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379119305931 Not sure if a neodymium isotope record can be taken as evidence of "ending" the AHP]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012821X19303589#br0020 Might be unduly specific for a climate model]
|[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-11701-z Might be a novel interpretation w/o backing from a consensus]
|[https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/joc.5924 A single study]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X19304481 For discussion of disparate changes between two lake basins]
|[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/feart.2019.00314/full Could be a dodgy source]
|[https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-94974-1_6 Could be a summary source for the South Africa section]
|[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/wcc.591 For future developments]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012821X18307246 Not sure if it merits inclusion]
|[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10745-019-0072-9 A take on the "man-made hypothesis"]
|[https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI-D-18-0742.1 Seems to contradict the normal view of the role of dust]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012821X18306125 Might be useful for reconstructions of Central Africa climates]
|[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0959683619838021 Potential effects on the northern Mediterranean]
|[https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2015/1092/ Development of Hurricanes in Megalake Chad], p.191
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0012821X12001306 Some additional discussion of Lake Turkana]
}}
{{refideas
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|[https://cp.copernicus.org/articles/16/117/2020/ Perhaps just one model]
|[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/feart.2020.585770/full Is Frontiers a reliable source?]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379120305059 Another early decline source]
|[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0959683620932963 More on the Central African vegetation change] and [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092181812030148X same]
|[https://journals.equinoxpub.com/JMA/article/view/42344/39127 Does not draw much of a connection to AHP]
|[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10933-020-00138-w Representative for upper-elevation Ethiopia?]
|[https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/gsa/geology/article/doi/10.1130/G48059.1/590930/Similar-Holocene-glaciation-histories-in-tropical On glacial history] but the rejection of [https://cp.copernicus.org/preprints/cp-2020-61/ this] makes me wary.
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1464343X20302028 Implies but does not explicitly state a connection between AHP and volcanism]
|[https://books.google.ch/books?hl=de&lr=&id=q4PUDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=%22african+humid+period%22&ots=W2_zoWo_Tw&sig=2iGAQAQzczlzrfgr4aTTSGTDcEQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22african%20humid%20period%22&f=false Connection to the Neolithic Revolution]
|[https://apo.ansto.gov.au/dspace/handle/10238/9585 Alternate name "Green Sahara Period"?]
|[https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-15265-9_12 Egyptian record]?
|[https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1029/2020GL089695 Effects on isotope ratios]
|[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17927-6 Effects of its end on East Asian climate]
|[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mec.15663 Is this definitive enough for AHP]
|[https://journals.iaepan.pl/apolona/article/view/2298 Effects of antiquities trade on the archeological record]
|[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jqs.3223 Record on one site]
|[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67246-5 Effects on sheep?]
|[https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2020PA004009 Has this information on the Mediterranean waters]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379120303516#bbib48 Effects of soil properties]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379119304883 Discussion of Arabian humid periods]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140196318312229 Another example from Arabia]
|[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0959683619895580 Mediterranean context]
|[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/9780470015902.a0029070 Relation with Helicobacer pylori]
}}
{{refideas
| state = collapsed
|[https://lingvo-science.ru/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/lingvoscience_33_november_2020-2.pdf Not sure if reliable]
|[https://www.pnas.org/content/118/23/e2101486118.short Watermelons]
|[https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/gsa/geology/article/39/7/687/130637/Evolution-of-a-Pharaonic-harbor-on-the-Red-Sea Effects on a harbour]
|[https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/34/1/jcliD200317.xml Information may already be included]
|[https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2021GL094194 Might be just one model]
|[https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/gsa/geology/article/49/2/140/590930/Similar-Holocene-glaciation-histories-in-tropical Glaciation history; last I checked this is a bit contentious]
|[https://cp.copernicus.org/articles/17/1243/2021/ More specific impacts on Asian monsoons]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169555X21003044 Lake Abhe records]
|[https://www.ajol.info/index.php/ijma/article/view/207738 Not sure if reliable]
|[https://brill.com/view/journals/jaa/19/1/article-p57_3.xml Just one site?]
}}
{{refideas
| state = collapsed
|[https://oxfordre-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/africanhistory/display/10.1093/acrefore/9780190277734.001.0001/acrefore-9780190277734-e-842#ref_acrefore-9780190277734-e-842-note-20 Potential link to slavery]
|[https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/39/8/msac168/6652436 Possible watermelon hybridizations]
|[https://www.zurnalai.vu.lt/proceedings/article/download/28579/27811 Paleopathological implications]
|[https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/hunting-in-the-desert-assessing-the-form-and-use-of-kitelike-structures-in-the-western-sahara/B519A5CB9E808A1065689A727037BAD6 Sahara architecture perhaps linked to the AHP]
|[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/feart.2022.892664/pdf Frontiers]
|[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12517-022-09964-w SE Libya]
|[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jbi.14510 Speciation]
|[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/feart.2022.982694/full Frontiers]
|[https://cp.copernicus.org/articles/18/1035/2022/ Lakes and wetlands]
|[https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/quaternary-research/article/changing-environments-and-human-interaction-during-the-pleistoceneearly-holocene-from-the-shallow-coastal-area-of-dor-israel/5809A7501F304B37FD5135617CB2512A Israeli coastline]
|[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/feart.2022.934488/pdf Frontiers]
|[https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2202530119 On pyramids and the AHP]
}}
{{refideas
| state = collapsed
|[https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-sciences/article/why-did-doctrinal-religions-first-appear-in-the-northern-subtropical-zone/775436D18EA40DCEB9088CBE3947E0E4 This may need more public acceptance]
|[https://www-nature-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/articles/s41598-023-37135-8 Vegetation article, probably more about temperature than precipitation]
|[https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/2022PA004498 Not 100% sure that this east-west change in South American precipitation is reproduced by proxies]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379123000422 Wildfire discussion may already be sufficient]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1464343X23002443 A century of research reconstructing quaternary environments in east and North Africa and its global legacy]
|[https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3633 Effects on rice genomics]
|[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jbi.14510 Effects on dryland species]
|[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06603-6 Fish evolution]
|[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00382-023-07013-0 Comparison of AHP and GW]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674283422002070 Comparison of AHP and GW #2]
|[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031018223001438 Not sure that this 7.2 ka event is synchronous enough]
|[https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-27330-8_63 Connecting Israel-Palestine archaeology to the AHP]
}}
{{reflist
| state = collapsed
|[https://link.springer.com/10.1007/978-3-031-31921-1 A source with some questionable claims regarding CO2 effects on climate]
|[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17409292.2024.2427483#abstract Tracing the Desert Island: Atlantis, Unknowability, and Colonial Imagination]
|[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/dep2.299 Unsure what exactly it correlates to the AHP]
}}
{{Section sizes}}
Younger Dryas category
Is it really correct to list :Category:Younger Dryas on this page? The Younger Dryas is a pause in the AHP, not a continuation. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
:I was not searching for continuations, but for articles which either place the Younger Dryas in its palaeontological and archaeological context, or provide explanations for its causes. Dimadick (talk) 18:50, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
On the length tag
I'd like to dispute the length tag on the grounds that this topic is extremely broad and covers a number of aspects across several different countries, fields of science and ages. That and as discussed in the archive, it does not neatly split into various topics. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
:The article is currently written in a way that is broader than the topic, and the topic can certainly be covered in a more concise way - for example avoiding examplefarms. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:14, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
::Yes, deliberately so, to give a bit of context of what came before and what else occurred at the same time. The examples of e.g lakes were picked with a reason, too - the lakes in question have had dedicated studies to them. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 05:17, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
:::But we don't need to report every lake that's been studied - we're meant to be providing a broad overview of the subject. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:18, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
::::I am inclined to think that listing lakes that were studied is an appropriate level of detail. Details on each lake on the other hand would be excessive. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 05:59, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
Russian source
[https://www.rgo.ru/sites/default/files/maket-70-el.pdf#page=71 This source] discusses the speciation of the Guinea tilapia, but it's too long to readily translate. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Thoughts on "How language can be a path away from neo-colonialism in geoscience"?
I've introduced [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-023-01337-6 this source] in the article but I am not excited by it. Putting aside for a moment that the term "African humid period" was a) coined in 2000 by deMenocal and not by Nicholson and Flohn 1980 which don't use the term and b) there are so many manifestations outside of North Africa that such a rename motion has gained little traction so far, I am not sure if this study carries the weight to argue that the term is neo-colonial. Certainly not without a "allegedly" before it which strikes me as questionable too. I am just not sure whether to default to inclusion or exclusion. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 20:11, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
:I see that {{ping|Herostratus}} has removed this part. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
::Yes, I can't read the article beyond the first few sentences, but it looks like a polemic and a pretty incendiary one at that. Apparently "African humid period" is racist or something. If it's misleading or too broad or whatever, that'd be one thing, but racist is just over the top. I don't know what the authors recommend instead, and if they have a concrete suggestion I suppose we could put it in the Terminology and use the article to ref that (altho these people might not be notable enough, so maybe not). But the political screed stuff, seems too fringe to me. Herostratus (talk) 04:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Herostratus}} It seems like there are non-paywalled copies [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=12272673317540356968&hl=de&as_sdt=0,5 here]. The pertinent part to AHP is {{tq|Another example, which is rooted in colonial-era treatment of colonized areas as uninhabited and homogenous 2 , is the ‘African Humid Period’. This Holocene climate perturbation has been recognized across mainly northern Africa for over 100 years but this phrasing first appears in the 1980s 6. The term is problematic, as instead of referring to a section of the continent, indeed initially just the Sahara 6, the whole of Africa is invoked. Lumping together 54 countries, eight climatic regions and 30 million km 2 into a single, simple, unknowable entity harks back to colonial thinking. Instead, we could simply refer to this period as the ‘northern African Humid Phase’.}} Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:47, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Ah, thank you. Well, they do have a suggestion "northern African Humid Phase", which is entirely reasonable. We could use that article as a source for the statement "some scientists have instead used and recommended... "Northern African humid period". After all, they are correct in saying "The term is problematic, as instead of referring to a section of the continent, indeed initially just the Sahara 6, the whole of Africa is invoked. Lumping together 54 countries, eight climatic regions and 30 million km 2...", altho I don't think it is super confusing cos reading a couple-few sentences in to any material on the subject makes it pretty clear what is being talked about.
::::But, ascribing this to an imperialist mindset is just such arrant nonsense that I'm not sure that these people are serious enough to have any standing to comment on anything not directly in their exact areas of technical scientific expertise, defined narrowly. Yes I know the West has acted badly in a lot of places, but this here is a science article.
::::Anyway, they didn't recommend "Northern African humid period", the recommended "northern African humid period", and for all I know capitalizing "Northern African" as a proper noun rather than using "northern Africa" as a mere descriptive phrase indicates a desire to divide the continent into formally separate sections which is racist or something. Who knows? It's tiring to try to keep up with this stuff and so I'd just as soon not include these people at all. Herostratus (talk) 21:41, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
For the interested
[https://acp.copernicus.org/articles/20/6521/2020/ This sauce] speculates that the Los Chocoyos eruption of Lake Atitlán might have induced a significant greening of the Sahara 84,000 years ago. Via Mediterranean rainfall and not the monsoon, however. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:07, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Green or "green"
{{ping|Mukogodo}} I still must contest [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=African_humid_period&oldid=prev&diff=1238984343 this formatting change]. Most of the world does not put the green in scare quotes, even if it probably should, and the distinction between savanna and green strikes me as overly literal. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:28, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
6,000–5,000 years ago during the Piora Oscillation cold period.
A "PIORA" cold period is very much debated, and above all, never ocurred in that time, perhaps Piora I started at 3400 BC, if at all.HJJHolm (talk) 09:42, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
:3,400 BC is 5,400 years ago so within Menocal's timespan, though? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
National Geographic September 1924
Does someone have a working version of [https://archive.org/details/nationalgeographic19240901/page/252/mode/2up?q=animals the article] that says on which page the savannah animals are mentioned. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:55, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Intro
The Introduction is by far to detailed. On the other hand, we need a chapters about datings of the beginning and the end.HJJHolm (talk) 06:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
:I don't think that the intro is too detailed at all, sorry. It seems to be a proper level of detail. There is already a chapter about the dating of the ending (6.1 Chronology) and the dates of the beginning aren't particularly controversial and don't need a chapter. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
Length/citation number
So, currently the article has 965 citations and with my annual update the number will likely grow. {{ping|KyleSirTalksAlot}} has flagged the article for excessive citations so at some point a split will have to be done, but someone has to write the split articles. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
:Begun shortening by removing duplicate citations. Got down to "additional factors". Thinking to do this section by section:
:* Effects
:** 4.1 Flora and fauna of the Sahara
:** 4.2 Lakes and rivers of the Sahara
:** 4.4 Additional manifestations in the Sahara
:** 4.5 Arabia
:** 4.6 East Africa
:** 4.7 Other parts of Africa and the rainforest realm
:** 4.8 Levant and Mediterranean
:** 4.11 Effect on other climate modes
:*** 4.11.1 Remote precipitation and the AHP
:*** 4.11.2 Hurricanes and the AHP
:* 6 End
:** 6.1 Chronology
:** 6.3 East Africa and Arabia
:** 6.7 Southern Hemisphere Africa
:** 6.8 Mechanisms
:*** 6.8.1 Potentially human-mediated changes
:** 6.9 Global
:*** 6.10.1 Humans
:*** 6.10.2 Non-human
:* 8 Implications for future global warming
:Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
::Also worth checking
:::Did the first three; the fourth is probably too much work. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
"Nomadic" additions to the lead
There have been several additions of the term "nomadic" to the lead, first with no source, then with [https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/green-sahara-african-humid-periods-paced-by-82884405/ this one]. There are a few problems:
- This concept needs to be discussed in the article before it can be added to lead, per WP:UNDUE and WP:LEADCITE
- Most importantly: As formulated by the edits, the addition implies that the inhabitants of the Green Sahara were mainly nomadic. That's a questionable claim that would need extensive discussion in the article text, not just one source.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:17, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Preprints awaiting publication or rejection
[https://cp.copernicus.org/preprints/cp-2024-81/] and [https://egusphere.copernicus.org/preprints/2024/egusphere-2024-539/] Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 19:29, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Apropos of nothing...
User:Turathizetu/sandbox, User:Kōkogaku-sha/Takarkori, User:小文儿/Lothagam Lokam and User:Turathizetu/Jarigole Pillar Site. Some interested user may want to launch them one day. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
"The AHP is the most profound climate change of the low latitudes during the last 100,000 years"
As questioned by {{U|Darkskysunflowers}}. The source text is {{tq|The AHP represents the most comprehensive and areally extensive change in low-latitude climate of the last 100,000 years, and it provides an instructive example of the response of continental climate and ecosystems to external forcings}}, I figure the question is about how it compares to the ice ages? Given that sea levels are more geography than climate and that the southward shift of the Sahara boundary during LGM/HE1 seems to be somewhat less than its northward retreat during the AHP, it might still be valid. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
:The wording of "The AHP is the most profound climate change of the low latitudes during the last 100,000 years" feels too broad/vague/subjective. The source text saying that the AHP is the most "areally extensive" change makes sense and is a narrower-stroke assertion. Given what is known as well as what is still unknown about details of the climate across the globe of the past 100,000 years, I tend to prefer erring in the direction of narrower assertions.
:Very nice work on the article, by the way - it's clear you've put more than a little effort into it. Darkskysunflowers (talk) 17:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)