Talk:Ahmed Ben Bella#May 2023

He was not simply arrested by the french, in fact his airplane was intercepted over international waters by a squadron of NATO fighter jets and forced to land in France, which would count as aerial piracy.

I have found that he was born actually on December 25, 1916. See Algeria: A Revolution that Failed by Arslan Humbaraci, page 96.

Please cite a source for that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.134.88.69 (talk) 18:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The text says that Ben Bella couldn't speak Arabic when he tried to give a speech in Egypt, "because his first language was French, not Arabic". That is possible, but a source should be cited. Because there are other possible explanations: L'Humanité says that Ben Bella was of "Berber roots", so his first language might have been as well Berber (as for around 30% of Algerians) and his second French (taught in school). It is also possible that his first language was Algerian Arabic (as for 70% of Algerians) and that he realised that that language wouldn't be understood at all in Egypt... the differences between Algerian and Egyptian Arabic are huge, bigger than between Spanish and Italian, and probably Ben Bella couldn't speak Standard Arabic, which is nowhere spoken, but taught in school and considered the "correct" Arabic for a political speech. Can anybody give further information? I'll tag the sentence as 'citation needed'. --Ilyacadiz (talk) 18:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

:I am unable to verify that, but it does indeed sound like the most reasonable explanation.86.52.20.32 (talk) 00:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not an expert on Arabic, but see varieties of Arabic. There are serious variations between Classical Arabic, Modern Standard Arabic, and the spoken dialects. Most of the dialects are mutually intelligible, but the dialects of north-west Africa are rather deviant. So he could have spoken Algerian Arabic, it seems unlikely that he was an effective resistance leader without speaking the language of the bulk of his supporters, but have been unable to communicate with people when he visited Egypt. He may well have learned Modern Standard Arabic in prison. This needs clarification. PatGallacher (talk) 20:33, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

AJE says he was born in 1916 and died at 95. 72.255.58.239 (talk) 06:01, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

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I have added an issues template about the lack of citations for this article's claims, ranging from Ben Bella's supposed assassination attempts, to him crying because he supposedly could not speak standard Arabic, among other things. Sisuvia (talk) 03:04, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

@M.Bitton, Such behaviors (reverting without adequately explaining) are not consistent with someone who is here to build an encyclopedia, because, as you know, editors must collaborate. Anyway could you please explain where is the source misrepresentation in my edit? SimoooIX (talk) 00:25, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

:This [https://www.jeuneafrique.com/176511/politique/ahmed-ben-bella-des-origines-modestes-1916-1945/ source] doesn't support any of these two edits (diff and diff). Such blatant misrepresentation of a source is what's not acceptable. M.Bitton (talk) 00:27, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

::Did you even read the source? Here is a quote from the source:

::

Ahmed Ben Bella est venu au monde dans l’extrême ouest algérien le 25 décembre 1916 à Maghnia, un ancien marché rural placé sous la protection de la sainte éponyme, qu’on dit originaire de Marrakech.

::Another quote:

::

Le futur président algérien est donc marocain et «berbère» par ses origines, rural et provincial par son statut social.

::I think it's pretty clear

::SimoooIX (talk) 00:45, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

:::Since you seem to have difficulty with the French language, I suggest you run the quote through Google translate, or don't, it's up to you. Either way, I strongly suggest you refrain from misrepresenting the source again. I'm done here. M.Bitton (talk) 00:50, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

::::Take a look at the french article, theoretically those who are editing there must have better knowledge at french. Isn't it? SimoooIX (talk) 00:54, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

::::Alright, i found a full article. Take a look at this. [https://www.cairn.info/revue-confluences-mediterranee-2012-2-page-41.htm] SimoooIX (talk) 01:11, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

:::::I'm more interested in the fact that you misrepresented a source and edit warred over it. M.Bitton (talk) 01:14, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

::::::I don't think i misrepresented anything. the sentence was pretty clear. I mean who was meant to be "originaire de Marrakesh" other than Ben Bella? Is it "l'ancien marché rural placé sous la protection de la sainte éponyme"? Or is it Maghnia? Come on!

::::::Also why would the author make such conclusion: "Le futur président algérien est donc marocain et «berbère» par ses origines, rural et provincial par son statut social"? SimoooIX (talk) 01:25, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

:::::::You misrepresented a source. That's a fact! M.Bitton (talk) 01:28, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

::::::::I don't see any misrepresentation of sources right now. I just explained to you why. Could you please tell where do you see the misrepresentation of the source? Because clearly what you're doing now is not going to help! SimoooIX (talk) 01:30, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::Why do you insist on wasting my time with your nonsense? I asked you to use Google translate, why didn't you?

:::::::::Here's the translation for you: "Ahmed Ben Bella was born in the far west of Algeria on December 25, 1916 in Maghnia, an old rural market placed under the protection of the eponymous saint, who is said to be from Marrakech."

:::::::::If you still don't understand or keep denying that you misrepresented a source, then there is nothing anyone can do to help you. M.Bitton (talk) 01:39, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

::::::::::Now i can see where the problem is. In case the author was refering to "la sainte éponyme" who is mostly Lalla Maghania, i don't think she was "said to be from Marrakesh". If that was the case, why would the author make such a conclusion at the end? Anyway the two sources i cited [https://www.jeuneafrique.com/176511/politique/ahmed-ben-bella-des-origines-modestes-1916-1945/][https://www.cairn.info/revue-confluences-mediterranee-2012-2-page-41.htm] are both written by the same author, so in all the cases, technically i misrepreseted nothing. Thanks. SimoooIX (talk) 02:32, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

{{od}} Technically, this is waste of time. In any case, mentioning the origin of his parents is already more than we is found in most RS. I see no reason to give UNDUE weight to origin of the origin of something that played no part in who he was. M.Bitton (talk) 15:12, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton, here i've started this discussion for so you can tell us why you think that the content you removed is undue. SimoooIX (talk) 15:13, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

:I already explained why in the edit summary and the above discussion, therefore, I see no need to repeat myself. If you disagree, you are aware of The WP:ONUS policy and how it works. M.Bitton (talk) 15:16, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

::Let's start with facts. You removed properly sourced content , then you edit-warred over it.

::No, it is not undue. Take the article of Abdelmadjid Tebboune For example, the 'early life' section does also mention details about his family (even more than what was in this article before your removal). You're clearly pushing your POV now.SimoooIX (talk) 15:29, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

::Hi @Rosguill, i hope you're doing well. Please take a look at this issue, i have added properly sourced [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/1152620824 content], but apparently M.Bitton didn't like what i added, and [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/1152657971 removed] it as well as other relevant content for being 'undue' (which is clearly not). i have [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1152658831 reverted] their removal and respectfully asked them not to edit war and discuss their removal in the talk page first. but they clearly seem unwilling to cooperate and [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/1152659100 cotinued edit warring]. (you'll notice that they are refusing to continue this discussion now). I really need your help now, as i'm done with their POV pushing and disruptive behaviour. (Also before they make baseless accusations of sources misrepresentation i invite you to read the discussion whose title 'April 2023' above). Thanks. SimoooIX (talk) 16:43, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

:::I'm glad you pinged an admin, because the persistent personal attacks need to be addressed.

:::Look, i'm aware that an Algerian president being Moroccan Berber by his origins is a bothersome to you. But Wikipedia is not the place to impose your biased POV. this PA (that made me take a break yesterday, to avoid responding in kind) is near identical to the first that you made on the day you joined the project. M.Bitton (talk) 14:54, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

::::No, you were clearly refusing to continue the discussion. Actually it wasn't a personal attack, i was adressing your POV and not you personally. In any case it cannot be worse than this obvious personal attack.[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/1152191612] Beside labeling the mentions of a specific country (Morocco) as 'stupid'. Talk:Marinid Sultanate#April 2023.

::::Anyway nothing will change the fact that you have removed properly sourced content and edit warred over it.SimoooIX (talk) 15:07, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

:::(sigh) I think it's time for another ANI thread. I will open it shortly. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:39, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

::::I'm sorry if i have disturbed you. But i really had to do that. Their Edit warring, POV pushing and refusal to discuss must be adressed otherwise this will never stop. SimoooIX (talk) 16:00, 2 May 2023 (UTC)