Talk:American and British English pronunciation differences#Issue with this page

Santiago Claudio: I will ping, {{ping|Mutt Lunker}}, {{ping|Sundayclose}} & {{ping|Valereee}}, in hopes that you reply to my message & don't respond "I have checked". I want a follow-up response & don't take this as an attack.

Where do you find these information? Why do you like editing [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_pronunciation_differences this article], even though, it will be checked, verified & removed eventually? You're more of a liability rather than an asset & this is sabotage. You pick a random word that you read or heard somewhere & suddenly it has regional differences. That's not how to determine regional differences.

You mentioned English is in your register, but it isn't. If English is in your register, you should also know French/miscellaneous stress sections, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Splits_and_mergers_in_English_phonology splits/mergers of English phonology] & phonetic rules. There's more to English other than single & multiple pronunciation differences.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_pronunciation_differences This page] is based on original research, but majority of my post are still there & some of them are deleted for a reason. I never bring back deleted post, but you still continue. My post is verifiable. While, yours is already covered in the section.

[https://vk.com/doc243798239_453744268 The Routledge Dictionary of Pronunciation for Current English]

Here are the information, with page numbers for verification:

+Graeme/Graham[e] - Removed, check page 591/1591.

T(h)eresa - Removed, check page 1392 & 1400 of 1591.

Southern German variant of Ludwig {{IPA|de|ˈluːtvɪk|}} is a dialect & will therefore be removed.

Partisan is already listed in the French stress section.

Rioja {{IPAc-en|r|i|ˈ|əʊ|x|ə}} sounds likes a {{IPAc-en|k|}} in Loch & will therefore be removed.

Only three will remain: bastion - check page 143 of 1591; consortium - check page 300/1591 & Sebastian - check 1233 of 1591.

I hope you're not going to reinstate these materials again because it's displeasing & frustrating.

I only edit certain materials, such as, punctuation & spelling. You just edit everything you see & seem very impatient that you want to move forward quickly. I only have [https://xtools.wmflabs.org/ec/en.wikipedia.org/NKM1974 934 total edits to my name] compared to [https://xtools.wmflabs.org/ec/en.wikipedia.org/Santiago_Claudio 33,324 live edits to your name]. Wikipedia seems like a game or competition to you, that is, "How many articles can I edit in 24 hours?". The reason that I'm not active is because reading & writing messages can be long & intimidating. Also, if an issue arises regarding my post, I will likely be inundated with posts on both article & personal page of the Talk section. I have a limited time replying to messages. The reason users are complaining is because they want to eliminate toxic users & resolve conflicts/issues regarding users & articles. Also, Wikipedia has quality control standards.

You should leave articles alone, especially relating to languages in Wikipedia.

Since you don't know phonetics, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Splits_and_mergers_in_English_phonology click here or the above link for more information].

I have a suggestion & advice that you should take into consideration:

Suggestion: Head to your local library to find these two English pronunciation & phonetic transcriptions dictionaries to borrow the book or install the CD-ROM on your personal computer: (3rd ed.) 2008 Longman Pronunciation Dictionary & (18th ed.) 2011 Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary. The CD-ROM works perfectly on Windows 7/8/10. I'm not sure if this works on Windows 11.

Advice: Take phonetic lessons, read the dictionary & watch old audio/video from the previous century (that is, from the 1930s until 1990s).

NKM1974 (talk) 23:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

:I don't see that I've ever edited at American and British English pronunciation differences. Not sure why I was pinged? Valereee (talk) 23:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

::{{ping|Valereee}}, The reason that I pinged you because this user was uncooperative & never replies to messages in the past before he was blocked. You can monitor the situation, if you like. It's on the Species section of his talk page above. NKM1974 (talk) 00:35, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

:::Sorry, I don't go out of my house most of the day for many years now, and I've never went to that library for that reason. Santiago Claudio (talk) 00:40, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

:{{ping|NKM1974}} The very link you provide to Routledge confirms that the monosyllabic pronunciation of Graham exists in America as a secondary pronunciation (though not in Britain), so why delete that? The first time I heard the odd ‘Gram’ version was from a Northern Irish girl as it happens but it doesn’t seem to exist anywhere else in Ireland or Britain - she was half-American with a strange hybrid accent and thus just a special case. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 03:20, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

{{moved to|User_talk:Santiago_Claudio#Majority of Your Posts Removed on American and British English pronunciation differences|NKM1974 (talk) 01:36, 22 March 2023 (UTC)}}

{{ping|Overlordnat1}} The phonetics are shown with pronunciations on LPD3 & CEPD18: {{IPAc-en|ˈ|ɡ|r|eɪ|ə|m}} & {{IPAc-en|ɡ|r|eɪ|m}}. This is similar to a user that posted Craig with {{IPAc-en|ɛ}} & {{IPAc-en|eɪ}} but was removed because they are allophones. I'm not an expert on phonetics. I only check & post items on the register. {{ping|Nardog}} knows more about phonetics than I do. Were you able to find LPD3 (2008) or CEPD18 (2011) in CD-ROM or book format at your local library? NKM1974 (talk) 01:55, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

:I can’t say I’ve tried to find those specific texts yet but it’s not only Routledge that lists a difference, just look up Graham at OneLook.com and you’ll see most dictionaries give two separate pronunciations for British and American English. I prefer the analyses given in Merriam-Webster, dictionary.com and two of the other online dictionaries which both give Random House dictionary as a reference - they all transcribe Graham in such a way as to effectively claim that some Americans pronounce Graham in the same way that most English people say ‘gram’, though Merriam-Webster goes as far as to claim it can be ‘Gra-um’. Some other dictionaries use the silly diglyph formed by combining ‘a’ and ‘e’, thus basically saying that the pronunciation can be ‘gram’ or ‘grem’, thus meaning there are at least 3 possible (from my perspective) non-standard pronunciations that could be listed as Americanisms. The version you mention that sounds like ‘Grame’ is surely just what happens when someone says the word in the standard way (Gray-um) but they’re speaking at a mile a minute, I doubt it’s standard anywhere and ‘grame’ and ‘grem’ sound completely different to each other anyway (so your comment about allophones seems somewhat baffling to me). Overlordnat1 (talk) 02:20, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

::{{ping|Overlordnat1}}, I agree with {{ping|Wolfdog}} recent edit that most dictionaries give the wrong pronunciation. Nutella is a registered trademark & it should be removed. NKM1974 (talk) 05:20, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

:::Rejecting dictionary pronunciations is bizarre and, anyway, all you have to do is look up the pronunciation of Graham on YouGlish for both the U.K. and the US and hear the difference for yourself. The same goes for ‘Craig’ and ‘Nutella’ btw. Clearly {{ping|Wolfdog}} was right that the fact that Oxford and MW have contradictory pronunciation notes for cumin is unhelpful but the obvious reality is that most people in both Britain and America say ‘cyoomin’ or, rarely, ‘coomin’. The ‘cummin’ pronunciation, if it exists at all in Britain (or anywhere else), is much rarer. YouGlish confirms this fact. Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:29, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Apologies for half finishing an edit, getting distracted, and clicking "Save page" hours later; I am prone to this unfortunately. What I was trying to do was clarify the Moscow example was tweak the wording to clarify the point being made. The existing wording was:

For example, Moscow is RP {{IPAc-en|ˈ|m|ɒ|s|k|oʊ}} and GAm {{IPAc-en|ˈ|m|ɒ|s|k|aʊ}}, but only the {{IPAc-en|oʊ}}–{{IPAc-en|aʊ}} difference is highlighted here, since both the presence of a contrastive {{IPA|/ɒ/}} vowel in RP (which falls together with {{IPA|/ɑː/}} in GA) and the RP use of {{IPA|[əʊ]}} rather than {{IPA|[oʊ]}} are predictable from the accent.

In my view, this is confusing; it is self evident from the full transcriptions given in the first part of the sentence that "only the {{IPAc-en|oʊ}}–{{IPAc-en|aʊ}} difference is highlighted here", as that is the only difference between the two full transcriptions that were just given. The preceding "but" is incongruous since that implies that "only the {{IPAc-en|oʊ}}–{{IPAc-en|aʊ}} difference is highlighted here" contracicts the previously given full transcriptions, when in fact it is in agreement with them.

The sentence then talks about the {{IPA|[əʊ]}} - {{IPA|[oʊ]}} and {{IPA|/ɒ/}} - {{IPA|/ɑ/}} differences between RP and GA, but the fact that the word Moscow would be pronounced with those different vowels in the respective accents hasn't been explained anywhere. For this to make sense, it first needs to be explained how the respective pronunciations would be transcribed in accent-specific notation.

I have altered the wording to:

For example, in their respective conventional accent-specific transcription systems, Moscow would be transcribed as RP {{IPA|/ˈmɒskəʊ/}} and GAm {{IPA|/ˈmɑskaʊ/}}, but it is RP {{IPAc-en|ˈ|m|ɒ|s|k|oʊ}} and GAm {{IPAc-en|ˈ|m|ɒ|s|k|aʊ}} in the transcription system used in this article. Only the {{IPAc-en|oʊ}}–{{IPAc-en|aʊ}} difference is highlighted here, since both the presence of a contrastive {{IPA|/ɒ/}} vowel in RP (which falls together with {{IPA|/ɑː/}} in GA) and the RP use of {{IPA|[əʊ]}} rather than {{IPA|[oʊ]}} are predictable from the accent.

I am not entirely happy with the wording of this as it seems a bit cumbersome in places, but I think it makes the point that was missing in the previous version. Offa29 (talk) 16:52, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The British pronunciation of nephew registers on An English Pronouncing Dictionary Ed.6 (published in 1944) & Collins Dictionary website. [https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.94053/page/n325/mode/2up?view=theater&q=nephew An English Pronouncing Dictionary Ed.6] & [https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/nephew Collins Dictionary]

{{ping|Offa29}} Since you're from Britain, how well do you know French/Miscellaneous stress sections in this article? If you know those sections well, do correct & put them in the right position. Where do you get all your sources regarding pronunciations? Also, when posting, leave an information on the Edit Summary so it's easier to browse an article's history & do reply on your talk/article's section. Since, this is becoming a habit for you, leaving a blank & not responding for far too long could lead to a warning, suspension or block in your account or IP. I've seen it before. This isn't an attack, I'm just trying to point out what you need to improve that yields results. NKM1974 (talk) 04:59, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

:1944? 1944? How many adult speakers from 1944 do you supposed are alive today? If you think that a dictionary published in 1944 is a reliiable source for modern pronunciation, I really have no words. Offa29 (talk) 11:54, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

::{{ping|Offa29}} Nephew is reinstated for historical reasons & don't delete history. Here's another evidence, that's common during the Great Depression & Second World War of the 1930's & 1940s, respectively: [https://publicera.kb.se/mosp/article/download/10450/8890 JC WELLS - A Phonetic Update on RP] NKM1974 (talk) 14:51, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|Kwamikagami}} This article is based on original research & phonetics. The reason that you deleted the three entries is because you based them on letters & not phonetics.

[https://ebis.waterboard.lk/documentation/agmdoc/Nilmini/Data_I/Desktop%20Data/Prounounciation%20Dic%202.pdf The Routledge Dictionary of Pronunciation for Current English]

Here are the information, with page numbers for verification & phonetics:

Nehru - {{IPAc-en|ˈ|n|ɛ|r|uː|}} (UK) {{IPAc-en|ˈ|n|eɪ|r|uː|}} (US) check page 891 (920 of 1,590)

sequoia - {{IPAc-en|s|ɪ|ˈ|k|w|ɔː|ɪ|ə|}} (UK) {{IPAc-en|s|ɪ|ˈ|k|ɔː|ɪ|ə|}} (US) check page 1,219 (1,248 of 1,590)

vehicle - {{IPAc-en|ˈ|v|iː|ɪ|k|ə|l|}} (UK) {{IPAc-en|v|iː|ˈ|h|ɪ|k|ə|l|}} (US) check page 1,491 (1,520 of 1,590)

I hope you're not going to remove these three items because I've given you the phonetics & links on where to find those information.

I have a suggestion & advice that you should take into consideration:

Suggestion: Head to your local library to find these two English pronunciation & phonetic transcriptions dictionaries to borrow the book or install the CD-ROM on your personal computer: (3rd ed.) 2008 Longman Pronunciation Dictionary & (18th ed.) 2011 Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary. The CD-ROM works perfectly on Windows 7/8/10. I'm not sure if this works on Windows 11.

Advice: Take phonetic lessons, read the dictionary & watch old audio/video from the previous century (that is, from the 1930s until 1990s).

Also, in the future, I hope you don't make rash decisions on this article that's phonetic & not letter-based.

NKM1974 (talk) 23:50, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:routledge is evidently not a rs - and yes, i understand the difference between spelling and pronunciation

:for nehru, we had claimed that there was an /h/ in the american pronunciation; thre is not

:for sequoia and vehicle, i've never heard those pronunciations - not saying they don't occur, but they're not general, and neither occur in merriam-webster or random house

:so sorry, i'm going to revert you as long as you're contradicted by reliable dictionaries — kwami (talk) 01:53, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::ah, you appear to have misread the routledge transcription

::it only supports what we had for sequoia, and while that may be a minor regional pronunciation, it's not representative of the general american pronunciation

::nerhu is correct as you have it above, but the h is not pronounced as we claimed in the article

::vehicle is correct in routledge, but as a minor pronunciation per other dictionaries; the primary pronunciation is the same as in britain - and the pron you gave above is simply wrong — kwami (talk) 02:03, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::: {{ping|Kwamikagami}}, I will ping {{ping|Nardog}} & {{ping|Wolfdog}}. They might be able to resolve this issue. This has been there for a long time without any objections. NKM1974 (talk) 02:08, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::::yes, nardog should be able to explain/resolve the issue

::::errors can often remain on wp for years, even decades - that doesn't give them more credibility than rs's — kwami (talk) 02:11, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::::: {{ping|Kwamikagami}}, The pronunciation of vehicle registers on An English Pronouncing Dictionary Ed.6 (published in 1944) & Pronouncing dictionary of American English (published in 1949). [https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.94053/page/n491/mode/2up?view=theater&q=vehicle An English Pronouncing Dictionary Ed.6] & [https://archive.org/details/pronouncingdicti00unse/page/462/mode/2up?q=vehicle&view=theater Pronouncing dictionary of American English]. NKM1974 (talk) 02:49, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::no, it doesn't. those are just two more sources that demonstrate that this article is wrong. there is a not-uncommon pronunciation that pronounces the h, though without a shift in stress, that only one of those sources shows; 'vehicle' might therefore replace 'nehru'. — kwami (talk) 02:53, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Hello. I'm not sure what you're requesting of us by pinging us. There are a variety of dictionaries out there that can disagree at times. Vehicle without /h/ is General American and with /h/ is a lesser alternative, mostly correlating with [https://dialectsurvey.wordpress.com/2020/10/21/q73-how-do-you-pronounce-vehicle/ the South]. I agree impressionistically for your GenAm transcriptions of the other two words, but American Heritage and Merriam-Webster don't (except AHD for your Nehru transcription). So those words are perhaps more variable. Also, English phonotactics generally forbid postvocalic /h/. Wolfdog (talk) 12:44, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::is there a single dictionary that has an /h/ in 'nehru' [and thus 3 syllables, since /h/ can't end a syllable in english] or shows 'vehicle' stressed as /viːˈhɪkəl/?

:::::::/sɪˈkɔːɪə/ might be a minority pronunciation, but it certainly isn't a us/uk difference, since the 'uk' pronunciation is also the dominant us pronunciation — kwami (talk) 17:36, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::{{ping|Wolfdog}}, The reason that I pinged you & {{ping|Nardog}} is because I don't want this to turn into another dispute. {{ping|Kwamikagami}}, did you check [https://dictionary.cambridge.org Cambridge Dictionary] regarding Nehru, sequoia & vehicle? NKM1974 (talk) 22:06, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::did you? i just checked, and cambridge contradicts all your claims - the 'u' in 'sequoia' is pronounced in the u.s., and the 'h' in 'vehicle' and 'nehru' is silent. in fact, they give /ˈneɪruː/ as the british pronunciation!

:::::::::really, it's not difficult to verify a pronunciation with a dictionary, so i don't know why you're arguing about it. — kwami (talk) 22:37, 11 May 2025 (UTC)