Talk:Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia

:The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) TarnishedPath^talk 10:48, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

----

:Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia → {{no redirect|Anglican Church in New Zealand}} – The full title of the church is never used in common parlance and is simply just referred to as the Anglican Church or Anglican Church in New Zealand. The proposed title is more concise and consistent with other churches e.g. Moravian Church, Episcopal Church (United States), and Eastern Orthodox Church Traumnovelle (talk) 02:33, 12 March 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 12:18, 19 March 2025 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:10, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

:Neutral on the specific question of whether it should be renamed - I think either way could be justified.

:*https://web.archive.org/web/20240919101059/https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2024/20-september/news/world/new-zealand-archbishop-anoints-newly-elected-maori-queen

:*https://web.archive.org/web/20240624211402/https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/06/25/reverend-rob-mccullough-abuser/

:*https://web.archive.org/web/20250314161031/https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/15920514.maori-traditions-make-new-bishop-ripon-feel-home/

:*https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-anglican-studies/article/abs/from-settlement-to-superdiversity-the-anglican-church-and-new-zealands-diversifying-population1/2AC26C5CF0911EEE0D24739B23DAA98E

:sources refer to the church in both ways. I think there should be some consideration of which is more common, but this is not demonstrated. it is wrong to use the word "never" in either direction. Landpin (talk) 16:17, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

::I said in common parlance. The second source is an op-ed for a poem, see this article from a co-editor of the publication where it is simply referred to as the Anglican Church: [https://newsroom.co.nz/2020/10/07/i-saw-you-praying-in-the-chapel/].

::The Cambridge source just uses the simpler unofficial name, as does Te Ara: [https://teara.govt.nz/en/anglican-church/page-3]

::Contemporary news about the church neglects the full title: [https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/anglican-church-leaders-support-te-tiriti-offer-christmas-message-of-hope/WDKWXFBBZREEBJ45GA6VZR56QM/] [https://www.1news.co.nz/2019/08/10/anglican-church-hands-over-160-year-old-flag-to-kingitanga/] [https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/08/20/restoration-of-christ-church-cathedral-on-hold/] (quote but uses just simply Anglican in the article) [https://www.1news.co.nz/2019/08/10/anglican-church-hands-over-160-year-old-flag-to-kingitanga/] [https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360486378/anglican-church-mends-rift-ngati-toa-parata-whanau-fight-treaty-principles-bill] [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/125721946/anglican-church-knew-of-abuse-by-carer-but-promoted-him-anyway] Traumnovelle (talk) 19:34, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

• Weak oppose, WP:COMMONNAME is not based on what is commonly said in general, but what is specifically used most by sources, of which none are shown in the proposal. Additionally it may be less WP:PRECISE as it technically covers more than just New Zealand which may be more confusing for readers, as well as the church appearing to deliberately use a long title to clarify its coverage. The title is too long for ngrams, but "Anglican Church in Aotearoa" (assuming it is followed by ", New Zealand and Polynesia") is [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Anglican+Church+in+Aotearoa%2CAnglican+Church+in+New+Zealand%2CAnglican+Church+of+Aotearoa%2CAnglican+Church+of+New+Zealand&year_start=2000&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 more used] than just "Anglican Church in New Zealand", so weak oppose. DankJae 14:20, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
• :The title is more WP:CONSISTENT with the way other church bodies are titled. Most of the ngrams results if you look into them are references. WP:PRECISE isn't about having the most accurate name as possible but instead about having a name that is unambiguous as possible. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:54, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::Which other church bodies? Landpin (talk) 00:04, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::Some examples are mentioned in the lead. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:11, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::WP:CONSISTENT does not apply here, those are fully separate churches, there is little connection from this one to the other churches (nor is there convention for Anglican churches etc), the policy you should be citing is WP:COMMONNAME which they follow but fail to show evidence for it here. The proposed title doesn't improve any ambiguity but would cause more confusion as Fiji etc aren't part of New Zealand, so if anything is promoting a misconception like calling the Netherlands "Holland", calling the most populous part as the sole part. Still believe that clarifying that the church covers more than New Zealand and without evidence provided for the proposed still outweigh assumptions that readers just don't bother to use the long name. DankJae 09:16, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::WP:PRECISE says 'Usually, titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that. For instance, Saint Teresa of Calcutta is too precise, as Mother Teresa is precise enough to indicate exactly the same topic. On the other hand, Columbia would not be precise enough to unambiguously identify the Columbia River.' The proposed title is precise enough to identify the topic. Traumnovelle (talk) 18:43, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::Potentially, it might be slightly misleading. For instance, it is actually quite confusing that the Church of England is not only the established Church of England, but also the established church of Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man. For the Church of England, not much can be done, because the name is confusing. In this case, potentially having the long form name of the church would avoid that sort of confusion. Someone might skimread the article and not immediately realise the zone which it operates in isn't just New Zealand. Landpin (talk) 19:27, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::That isn't the purpose of titles, otherwise we'd make titles are descriptive as possible. You should see WP:CRITERIA to understand what is looked for in an article title. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:29, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::All of this discussion is pointless. It doesn't matter 'what people generally say' whether a title is 'too long,' or whether anyone THINKS it should be called something else. It IS called "Anglican Church of Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia." This is not only deeply culturally and theologically important, but it is simply ACCURATE. https://www.anglican.org.nz/About 139.80.239.165 (talk) 22:19, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::It does matter what title people use (WP:COMMONNAME), whether it is too long (WP:CONCISE). We don't use official titles for article titles if a more suitable title exists. We also don't title articles to appease cultural and theological beliefs, because it is simply impossible to achieve that. Traumnovelle (talk) 23:39, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

:I am a member of governance bodies in the Anglican Church of Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia. It would be inaccurate and potentially offensive to the three Tikanga nature of our church, and to the two Archbishops who would have their archdioceses completely removed from the name of their church. Here are the canons, and you can find ANZAP's Constitution/Te Pouhere here also https://www.anglican.org.nz/Resources/Canons 222.155.78.93 (talk) 09:17, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

:Oppose - proposed name significantly reduces the accuracy and I don't think the examples of usage are enough to clearly state that the proposed title is the common name enough to justify a move. Turnagra (talk) 22:58, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

:Note: Wikipedia:New Zealand Wikipedians' notice board, WikiProject Polynesia, WikiProject Anglicanism, and WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 11:38, 13 April 2025 (UTC)