Talk:Anna Anderson

The article begins with Anderson's discovery in Berlin at age 24. Would a bio with some relevant information (family, factory work, and prior medical record) from before her notability break up the flow of the article? Mostly asking since her original background from the 1910s is fairly well researched and pinpointed. Anderson's movements from West Prussia to Berlin are extensively documented in The Resurrection of the Romanovs by King and Wilson, as well as some German language sources. The book and the German sources (there strangely seems to be an absence of Polish works on her) state that Schanzkowska is not her birth name, but one she adopted when arriving in Berlin. There is certainty about her actual surname, Czenstkowski, but it's spelled very inconsistently even among her relatives.

Also wondering if her description as Polish might be oversimplified? Her family was Kashubian and spoke the dialect as her native tongue over either German or Polish, though she did seem to have a fluid grasp of both. Kashubs at the time didn't (and some still don't) consider themselves Polish, but German/Prussian would also not be accurate even if Anderson's family certainly was Germanised to a degree given the names in her genealogy and held citizenship of the German Empire.

Thoughts? Rubintyrann (talk) 23:06, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

:We shouldn't select one source over another. When most sources say she was Polish, we don't throw them all out and say she's Kashubian. Similarly, the common spelling in English-language reliable sources should be used, not an unusual form. I think the recent insertion is over-colloquial in tone ("back then it was in Germany") and the references should be formatted like the others in the article, not unnecessarily repeating information already given. DrKay (talk) 17:48, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

::The book I mentioned is already in use in sources. Not sure what edit you're referring to, but what I was asking was if an "early life" section would be appropriate. So far, the only mention about her background is the bit about working as a factory worker when a lot more is known about her before she became known as an Anastasia claimant. I was talking about making a short section, with some details such as her family, upbringing and activities before Berlin. The Kashub question was just an example about the information left out, not my main concern. Yes, Polish *is* the more accurate label over German, but reducing it to that doesn't convey her background in full. Just mentioning details like that a single time at the very beginning would suffice.

::Right now, the article just doesn't really read like a biography. The first section past the lead hinges on her lack of identifcation to switch from "unknown woman" to tentative names like "Tchaikovsky" and "Anderson", which is why I asked in the first place whether introducing her actual name in the beginning was appropriate. Since that would, as is already the case, make everything more confusing. Rubintyrann (talk) 19:43, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

::Also, upon checking back with the source, it's not controversial that her birthname was Czenstkowski. Some of her siblings simply made it "von Czenstkowski" to denote a gentry status.

::As to why it doesn't appear as often in English sources, most don't bother going back that far and like the article, they start and end with Franziska Schanzkowska, described only as a Polish factory worker. King & Wilson were the first to research Anderson's background before Berlin to find the Czenstkowski name on her birth registry. It's the subsequent spelling she adopted that is somewhat disputed (almost exclusively Schanzkowski/Schanzkowsky in German articles and books vs Schanzkowska in English works). Schwanzkowski is used significantly more in pre-2000s sources, with Schanzkowska becoming common in English works in the 2010s, coinciding with the publishing of King & Wilson.

::I haven't seen the recently inserted "Francizka Szankowska" spelling used anywhere before, but it's literally just a retroactively applied modern Polonization of the more German sounding Franziska Schanzkowska. Rubintyrann (talk) 23:10, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

:::As an example, let's just take the last sentence of the last insertion "Her brother Felix received a final letter from Schanzkowska on 17 February 1920 and on 9 March, she was reported missing to Berlin Police by her sister Gertrude.Klier and Mingay, pp. 105, 224; Kurth, Anastasia, p. 166; Massie, pp. 178–179, 250" Let us examine pages 105 and 224 of Klier and Mingay. Any mention of Gertrude? No. Any mention of her disappearance being reported to the Berlin police? No. Any mention of the Berlin Police? Yes, but only saying that they failed to identify her after fishing her out of the canal. Let us examine Massie, pages 178, 179 and 250. Any mention of Gertrude reporting her disappearance to the Berlin police on 9 March? No. For Kurth, refer to multiple previous talk page discussions (now archived) complaining long and bitterly about how unreliable he is. The content is not supported by the purported sources. DrKay (talk) 20:51, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

::::My mistake on not deleting the sources from the paragraph I incorporated into the text. I used King and Wilson for the content. I cited [https://www.spiegel.de/politik/eine-rettung-die-muetterchen-russland-gelang-a-91803dc2-0002-0001-0000-000046409520 this Spiegel article] for the disappearance date and the date of her missing report from [https://www1.wdr.de/radio/wdr5/sendungen/zeitzeichen/zeitzeichen-anastasia-zarentochter-legende-100.html WDR]. I guess I deleted these two citations while standardizing the citations. All faults on on my part. I already returned the copy of the book so now I can't check if I got the exact page count right, but everything I added was from the chapters 19 and 20, spanning some twenty pages. I'm assuming one look was enough to come to the assumption everything was fabricated but you're free to doublecheck.

:::: == Early life ==

:::: === Childhood (1896–1914) ===

::::Franziska Anna Czenstkowski was born in Borrowilaß as the second of four surviving childrenKing and Wilson p. 271 to Catholic Kashub parents Anton Czenstkowski and Marianna Witzke. She was baptized eight days after her birth at St. Marie Church in the neighboring village Borek and named after Frances of Rome.King and Wilson pp. 269–270 She was raised with Kashubian as the household language, but also fluently spoke local dialects of Polish and German, favoring the latter in regular conversation.King and Wilson pp. 273–274 Between 1897 and 1905, Czenstkowski's family moved around Kreis Bütow, earning day labor wages as sharecroppers and indentured servants. In 1906, Anton inherited a 30-acre estate in Borrowilaß, which he sold to buy a farm property in Hygendorf.King & Wilson p. 271–272 The family developed a negative reputation in the village as Anton became known as an alcoholic layabout.King and Wilson p. 275 Czenstkowski had attended local grammar schools throughout her childhood and completed secondary education in 1910.King and Wilson p. 273

::::In 1911, Czenstkowski's father contracted tuberculosis and died on 13 April 1912, after being bedridden for months. Czenstkowski became withdrawn following his death and frequently clashed with her mother for remarrying the following year.King and Wilson p. 276 With the growing strain, combined with the spread of unfounded rumours of promiscuity and incest, 17-year-old Czenstkowski was sent away to live outside of Pomerania, arriving in Berlin by train on 14 February 1914.King and Wilson p. 277

:::: === Life in Berlin (1914–1920) ===

::::In Berlin, Czenstkowski went by the surname Schanzkowska, a "feminized and grammatically incorrect" Germanization of her original name,King and Wilson p. 278 although the name was also frequently spelled as the more common "Schanzkowski"von Rathlef-Keilmann and von Kügelgen p. 198 and "Schanzkowsky".von Rathlef-Keilmann and von Kügelgen p. 178 It's suspected that the name change was an attempt to "abandon her Eastern background". While in Prussia she spoken Plattdeutsch, generally considered a working class dialect, she learnt standard Hochdeutsch during her time in Berlin.King & Wilson p. 274 Through 1914, Schanzkowska worked as a maid and Konditorei waitress, and after she was joined by her younger sister Gertrude in 1915, the siblings moved into a tenement flat in Wedding quarter.King and Wilson pp. 278–279 In 1915, amidst the increased war effort during World War I, Schanzkowska took a position at a AEG munitions factory in Berlin-Mitte and in 1916, Schanzkowska became engaged to a recruit in the German Army, becoming pregnant the following summer.King and Wilson pp. 280–282

::::File:Franziska_Schanzkowska.jpg

:::: ==== Involuntary confinement, break with family and isolation (1916–1919) ====

::::In June 1916, her fiancé was fatally wounded during the Brusilov offensive while deployed in Galicia on the Eastern Front. Not long after, while Schwanzkowska was working at the munitions factory, a grenade fell out of her hand and exploded on the assembly line. She sustained minor injuries and was treated for "nervous shock" as a foreman was killed in front of her.King and Wilson, p. 284 According to Gertrude, Schanzkowska was left physically weak and later fell prone to momentary loss of consciousness, symptoms consistent with blood poisoning, likely as a result of an amateur abortion.King and Wilson, pp. 282–283 She was declared insane on 19 September 1916 at Heil- und Pflegeanstalt Schöneberg. For a year, she spent time in {{Interlanguage link|Karl-Bonhoeffer-Nervenklinik|de}}, commonly known as Dalldorf asylum, and {{Interlanguage link|Universitätsklinikum Ruppin-Brandenburg|lt=Landesheilanstalt Neuruppin|de}}.King and Wilson, p. 283 Schanzkowska was noted as a quiet patient, albeit "high strung and prone to violent changes of mood", refusing any interaction with medical staff.

::::Following her release on 22 October 1917, Schanzkowska initially moved back in with Gertrude. However, she was overwhelmed with the task of taking care of Schanzkowska, and both sisters returned to Hygendorf in December 1917. The family had a similarly hard time handling Schanzkowska's stubborn demeanor and outright refusal to work. After she performed poorly during agricultural work, Schanzkowska was employed as a pub waitress in Bütow. During a workplace accident, her hand was caught in a dishwasher coil, leaving Schanzkowska with a permanent scar to the middle finger. In March 1918, renewed conflict with her mother led Schanzkowska to leave Prussia again, this time at her own volition.

::::After traveling east, labored as a resident farmhand at Gut-Friederikenhof estate in Grotkoppel, near {{Interlanguage link|Döhnsdorf|de}}. The estate also housed a prisoner of war camp for soldiers of the Imperial Russian Army, who were used as forced labor alongside regular farmhands, and in autumn 1918, a POW laborer attacked Schanzkowska with a sharp gardening tool, leaving her with significant facial and cranial injuries.King and Wilson, pp. 284–285 For a few months, Schanzkowska lived in her old tenement in Berlin, where she became increasingly reclusive. According to her landlady Doris Wingender, she hardly left her room, but most likely engaged in sex work to pay rent.King and Wilson, p. 285, p. 287 From spring to 20 November 1919, Schanzkowska again performed seasonal work at Gut-Friederikenhof, listing the Wingender apartment as her permanent residence.King and Wilson, p. 288

::::Schanzkowska disappeared on 17 February 1920{{Cite news |date=5 March 1967 |title=EINE RETTUNG, DIE MÜTTERCHEN RUSSLAND GELANG? |url=https://www.spiegel.de/politik/eine-rettung-die-muetterchen-russland-gelang-a-91803dc2-0002-0001-0000-000046409520 |access-date= |work=Der Spiegel |language=de |issn=2195-1349}} and was reported missing on 9 March.{{Cite web |date=3 February 2025 |title=Im Februar 1920: Die Anastasia-Legende wird geboren |url=https://www1.wdr.de/radio/wdr5/sendungen/zeitzeichen/zeitzeichen-anastasia-zarentochter-legende-100.html |access-date= |website=Westdeutscher Rundfunk Köln |language=de}} Rubintyrann (talk) 21:33, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::As an example, let's take the first sentence. "the second of four surviving children" sourced to "King and Wilson p. 271". Where is that in King and Wilson? Nowhere. Certainly not on page 271 which says she was the eldest surviving child. I don't see the point of checking the rest of the proposed text when in each check I've done so far, the first thing I've checked has been wrong. DrKay (talk) 09:02, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Well I'm not getting that book back anytime soon so I guess that puts the kibosh on an early life section for another fifteen years with your veto. I should make a habit of listing direct quotes if possible to avoid rookie screw ups like that. There's always next time then. Rubintyrann (talk) 16:28, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

::Franzisca Schanzkowska was German. She was born in Prussia (Germany), and German was her main language. Due to several Polish people living in Hygendorf, the children picked up the language, but later forgot it through disuse, according to Gertrude, her sister. On the "Anmeldung" from 1918, Franzisca wrote nationality as "Prussian". In the book "Almost Anastasia", the author interviews Waltraud von Chenskovsky, Franzisca's niece. "We were German, not Polish", Waltraud stressed. 2603:8001:27F0:88F0:C1B0:6AFF:FA52:2790 (talk) 19:17, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

:::It was more or less why I wanted to expand on her life before the pre-Anastasia claim. Kashubs were fairly Germanised at that point in time, as could be seen by the names of her parents and siblings, and the family certainly seemed more culturally German than Polish (their residence in majority German towns, their descendants now living in Germany). I felt that just changing "Polish factory worker" to "German factory worker" might be too controversial, hence why I tried to establish the background through an early life section.

:::I'm not that deep into the subject myself, but I just felt it was odd such a large chunk of her biography was missing on her origins when biographers were able to establish pretty much everything from her birth to the suicide attempt in Berlin the article leads on with. My best guess is previous edit-warring and attempts to avoid complicating the article with a historical dive into how there used to be Germans in what is now Poland. I read some of Waltraud's statements about her aunt and felt it would be appropriate to also deal with Franziska Schanzkowska/Schanzkowski/Czenstkowski, beyond just solely focussing on her claim to notability, the whole "mentally ill woman who claimed to be a dead Russian princess". I'd be all for the addition of Waltraud's statement about the family's categorisation somewhere in the article or at least in a footnote.

:::I'm hoping to revamp the draft I had with more accurate page citations since that seems to have been the main gripe with my previous version. I'll be sure to check out Almost Anastasia if I can. Rubintyrann (talk) 14:08, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I cannot for the life of me understand why she is labeled as a factory worker. Lots of German women were conscripted to work in factories to help the war effort. Franzisca worked as a maid, a waitress, a factory worker, a bottle washer in a brewery, and finally as a farm laborer. The correct description should be "A German woman from the working class.". 2603:8001:27F0:88F0:28A6:6762:813B:87BF (talk) 01:07, 18 May 2025 (UTC)