Talk:Ark of the Covenant#Contentious reversions without good reason

In almost all films the ark is portrayed as carried and completely observable. Not so in the description as per Moses in Numbers 4 where the ark is carefully covered. Numbers 4 goes on and describes how all the furniture is covered by the Kohathites. The most famous subgroup of those perhaps being 'the sons of Korah' who appear as gatekeeper musicians in Psalms books 2 and 3.

:This is a fairly trivial issue that does not merit that much space in the article. The text you inserted wasn't well sourced and seemed to have been generated with ChatGPT. Some of the sentences didn't relate to artistic portrayals at all. If you would like to mention the inaccuracies of movie depictions of the ark, please find sources that directly discuss the movie portrayals and cite them in a way that would allow readers to figure out what you are citing, and please write the text yourself (or at least edit it for coherence) instead of pasting in ChatGPT output. -- LWG ^talk 23:16, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

:I don't see it as a fairly trivial issue. See listed reasons. Whirlingmerc (talk) 19:35, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::The ISBN for "The Ark of the Covenant: Its History and Significance" by Roderick Grierson & Stuart Munro-Hay is0753810107 for the paperback edition and 9780753810101 for other formats​

::archive.org

::The ISBN for "The Ark of the Covenant in Its Egyptian Context: An Illustrated Journey" by David A. Falk is 9781683072676

::I will look for better references but the Numbers verse citations are pretty clear Whirlingmerc (talk) 22:20, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

I have to disagree. It may sound cosmetic but not really a trivial issue. The ark was behind the veil of the holy of holies is significant, even when moved it was covered by the veil of the holy of holies. That seems to be significant. Especially true as the veil is torn only when Jesus dies on the cross. It's not cosmetic, access to the ark was blocked whether in the holy of holies or moving. In art and movies, the ark is rarely portrayed this way. I understand it probably makes for less interesting art to have a covered Ark. Perhaps it's more of interest to artists to show the cherubim on the ark and the less interesting covering doesn't make for interesting portrayals but they are in the requirements for moving the ark are pretty clear in the book of Numbers.

On the subject of AI removed code was not AI/Claude/ChatGPT/... generated, however yes spelling and grammar was smoothed and the issues mentioned were not in the last version. No the content was not generated that way. BTW, along the same lines, a dull looking covering is true of the tabernacle as well which had dull animal skins on the outside covering precious things within. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8080:ae00:1615:5199:e4b5:ea1:c306 (talk)

::Here is the text I removed, in case any other editors want to offer their opinions on how it could be improved/included:

{{Collapse|1=The artistic portrayals of the ark often contrast with the requirement to cover the ark while moving it. Several films, such as Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981) and David and Bathsheba (1951), depict the Ark of the Covenant as openly visible during transport. However, biblical descriptions require that the Ark be covered when moved. According to Numbers 4:5-6, it was wrapped in the veil of the Holy of Holies, then covered with goatskin, and finally draped in a blue cloth Numbers 4:5-6, ESV. This ensured its sanctity and prevented direct contact. Scholars such as Roderick Grierson and Stuart Munro-Hay in The Ark of the Covenant: Its History and Significance and David A. Falk in The Ark of the Covenant in Its Egyptian Context: An Illustrated Journey have examined these biblical mandates, emphasizing their ritual significance Roderick Grierson & Stuart Munro-Hay, The Ark of the Covenant: Its History and SignificanceDavid A. Falk, The Ark of the Covenant in Its Egyptian Context: An Illustrated Journey.

The covering requirements extend to other items in the holy place of the temple. Biblical accounts also require that all Tabernacle furniture be covered before transport. The Table of Showbread, the Lampstand, and the Golden Altar were each wrapped in blue cloth and enclosed in goatskin Numbers 4:7-11, ESV. The Bronze Altar was covered in purple before being enclosed in goatskin Numbers 4:13-14, ESV. These coverings ensured that the sacred objects remained unseen and untouched during movement, a detail often overlooked in modern depictions. {{Reflist-talk}}|2=Removed text}}

::All of that text except the citation code comes up 100% probability of being AI-generated on GPTZero, and it has the sorts of problems typical of AI text that has not been sufficiently edited. For example the Grierson and Munro-Hay book cited doesn't exist. [https://www.google.com/search?q=Roderick+Grierson+%26+Stuart+Munro-Hay%2C+%22The+Ark+of+the+Covenant%3A+Its+History+and+Significance%22&sca_esv=5112c3a901f3f3de&ei=9N_RZ5fuAorKwN4PvZ2auQ4&ved=0ahUKEwiXuIb8ooWMAxUKJdAFHb2OJucQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=Roderick+Grierson+%26+Stuart+Munro-Hay%2C+%22The+Ark+of+the+Covenant%3A+Its+History+and+Significance%22&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiXVJvZGVyaWNrIEdyaWVyc29uICYgU3R1YXJ0IE11bnJvLUhheSwgIlRoZSBBcmsgb2YgdGhlIENvdmVuYW50OiBJdHMgSGlzdG9yeSBhbmQgU2lnbmlmaWNhbmNlIkgAUABYAHAAeAGQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgCgAgCYAwCSBwCgBwA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp Google searching] that title produces one result: this wiki article. That would never happen if you had actually read the sources you are citing and written the text based on them. This leads me to conclude that you generated the text with ChatGPT and did not sufficiently fact check it, which is a waste of other editors' time, and as we can see is already starting to poison Google search results. I don't really have time to try to salvage the text into something worth including, so unless there are other editors here willing to do the leg work I am going to have to remain opposed to including any of this text in the article. -- LWG ^talk 19:35, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:Going forward I shall work on more acceptable citations. Any. thoughts on the actual point that Numbers clearly says to cover the ark when moving and almost all depictions leave it uncovered? The reference in numbers is pretty clear cut. Whirlingmerc (talk) 22:10, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:actually both books are in print Whirlingmerc (talk) 22:16, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::Can you provide page numbers for where you found this information in these books? - Aoidh (talk) 22:32, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:::I will work on it. However friend. Let’s look at this another was. If I search for depictions of the ark covered they are rare and only one I found so far is from harvard’s collection https://harvardartmuseums.org/collections/object/250963

:::The artwork titled "Ark of the Covenant Carried through the Red Sea by the Priests" is attributed to an anonymous artist from Augsburg, Germany, around the year 1476. It's a woodcut print that illustrates a scene from the Speculum Humanae Salvationis. If I contrast that with the many images I see on wiki in this article they are many uncovered. Only Sunday school drawings sometimes show it covered blue. Now the two books only will only say the ask was behind the veil and covered when moved. I can look in the church and seminary library for better. Now as far as ai I am an engineer and will appologize. I write things and need to clean up grammar and spelling. I also am a techical PhD and taught GenAI. I doubt your test can always tell if someone cleaned up something like an ai grammar and fixed grammar and spelling but that’s my opinion in any case I appologize for the confusion. Originally point of few depictions by artists show the ark covered evidenced by the rare Harvard example. I stick with the premise that the ark behind the veil and covered by the veil when moved is significant especially as torn when Jesus died Whirlingmerc (talk) 23:23, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::::I understand and agree with your point that the covering of the ark in the Biblical account is significant as a piece of the Jewish/Christian narrative. The tearing of the veil is also important, although it doesn't directly connect to the ark. I also agree that it's a shame that much art through history has misrepresented the Biblical narrative. But those are all perspectives that you and I have personally. To be included in Wikipedia information needs to be verifiable and reflect what reliable sources are saying. Referencing Numbers is sufficient if all we are doing is reporting the Biblical narrative, but once we go beyond that into commentary (like commenting on the accuracy of movie depictions) we need to limit ourself from saying what reliable sources are saying. In this case, that means if you are going to talk about the inaccuracy of Indiana Jones or David and Bathsheba in the article, you need to cite sources that talk about those movies, not just the Biblical text.

::::More importantly, even/especially after running it through GenAI, the text you inserted was still low quality, incorrectly referenced, and some of it wasn't even directly related to the subject of the ark. If you teach GenAI you should be aware that these tools use Wikipedia's content as training input, thus any errors introduced to Wikipedia by GenAI creates the potential for a pathological loop situation. You should also be aware that anyone who uses GenAI needs to be responsible for verifying the accuracy of the output before using it. That means, among other things, checking that any references produced by AI actually exist and contain the information you are using them as citations for, and citing those sources in a way that allows the reader to actually track down what you are citing and why (something you should also know if you have a PHD).

::::I realize that my tone probably sounds a little harsh and I want to make it clear that I am glad you have joined the Wiki and would love to see you making constructive contributions here, but my tone is coming from the fact that I volunteer my time because I want to see the wiki improved, and it is frustrating when I have to waste my time cleaning up low-quality AI contributions. I would recommend as next steps for you here that you follow Aoidh's advice and track down page numbers for the citations you have, as well as additional citations for the information you don't currently have citations for (the movie commentary). Then try rewriting your paragraph from scratch in a way that accurately reflects those sources. I would also recommend you check out Wikipedia:No original research as well as the information at Help:Introduction to help you understand what kind of content is appropriate here. -- LWG ^talk 01:05, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::All good points. I am going to a church and seminary library and collecting as good of references as possible. I did find some rare depictions of the ark covered while moved similar to the one in Harvard's collection https://brightmorningstar.org/what-happened-to-the-ark-of-the-covenant/ has the lithograph card circa 1910 of the ark covered in blue cloth while crossing Jordan. (Israel enters the land of promise.

:::::Joshua 3:5-17. Golden Text: And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation.

:::::Bible Card by the Providence Lithoraph Company, Copyrighted 1907.) This is a bit more of an accurate depiction with the blue cloth than even the Harvard collection where the one from Ausburg was shown red. On the subject of artistic depiction. Covered or not covered may miss or maybe obscure a point that it is the space between the cherubim where God was said to dwell in a special way. This is a point from "The cherubim in Mishkan frame the space in which the Divine Presence comes to dwell. From there Moses would “hear the voice speaking to him,” emerging “from above the mercy seat that was on the Ark of the covenant from between the two cherubim”" (Num. 7:89) and discussed in detail on the Hebrew college page https://hebrewcollege.edu/blog/wings-of-desire-gods-presence-in-the-tabernacle/ by Rachel Adelman is assistant professor of Hebrew Bible at the Rabbinical School of Hebrew College, PhD at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem Whirlingmerc (talk) 16:51, 14 March 2025 (UTC) Another aspect of the ark not often mentioned is that while the commandments which are in the ark and the law in brief, the scrols of the law are set next to the ark outside. This is said in Deuteronomy 31:24-29 (NASB) from "the song of Moses"

::::::"24 It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this Law in a book until they were complete, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, 26 “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, so that it may remain there as a witness against you. 27 For I know your rebellion and your stubbornness; behold, as long as I have been alive with you until today, you have been rebellious against the Lord; how much more, then, after my death? 28 Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against them. 29 For I know that after my death you will behave very corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will confront you in the latter days, because you will do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands.” I will see if I can find a scholarly source outside the Bible on this but Deuteronomy is pretty clear with Moses speaking to that point in the Song of Moses. Whirlingmerc (talk) 17:20, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Here is an artistic/ theological discussion on the limitations

:::::::

:::::::==== Difficulties depicting the Ark ====

:::::::One Bible illustrator admitted, "Just about every Bible artist I know has missed this one! The fact is, the only time we should show the Ark uncovered is when it's in the Holy of Holies." Blog on Bible Illustration, "Ark of the Covenant in Art," bibleillustration.blogspot.com Despite biblical instructions, many artistic depictions show the Ark of the Covenant uncovered during transit, which contradicts the explicit scriptural mandate that it should always be veiled. The Bible instructions are that the Ark should be covered with layers of blue dyed animal skins during transportation, distinguishing it from other sacred furniture from the Holy of Holies, which was covered in red dyed skins. This "color coding" was not only a practical means of identifying sacred items and the even more sacred ark. Numbers 4:5-6, ESV.

:::::::RC Sproul has often said the first people filled with the Holy Spirit in the Bible were the Artisans, Bezalel and Oholiab who made the Ark, Tabernacle and garments of the high priest in his work Recovering the beauty of the Arts RC Sproul, Recovering the beauty of the Arts, p4, Ligonier MinistriesExodus 28:4,ESVExodus 31:2-4,ESVExodus 35:30-32,ESV The artisans empowered for making beauty but this work regarding the ark significantly concealed, an irony for art.

:::::::Art historians and Bible illustrators often discuss the frequent discrepancy between the Ark's prescribed treatment in scripture and its representation in art. However, there are atypical examples where the Ark is depicted covered. A piece in the Harvard Art Museums shows the Ark covered appropriately during transit https://harvardartmuseums.org/collections/object/250963. Additionally, a lithograph card circa 1910, housed by the Bright Morning Star organization, depicts the Ark covered in blue cloth while crossing the Jordan, further emphasizing scriptural accuracy Bright Morning Star. https://brightmorningstar.org/what-happened-to-the-ark-of-the-covenant/

:::::::Not looking at the ark was part of the inspiration of how Indiana Jones survived in Raiders of the Lost ark. The Bible has strict prohibitions against viewing the Ark, warning that individuals who look at the Ark might die Numbers 4:20, ESV. Even when the Ark was stationed in the Holy of Holies, the high priest used incense during rituals, which created a cloud above the Ark, acting as a screen and symbolically protecting the priest from viewing the Ark directly in some measure Leviticus 16:13, ESV.

:::::::Moreover, the Reformed tradition, which is particularly cautious about the accuracy of religious images, emphasizes that depictions of the Ark should adhere strictly to biblical descriptions, advocating for a portrayal that always includes the prescribed coverings Theopedia, "Ark of the Covenant," theopedia.com.

:::::::This emphasis on by the book scriptural fidelity reflects a religious and artistic challenge: how to visually represent something profoundly holy and fundamentally mysterious—qualities epitomized by the Ark of the Covenant, which was both a physical object and a symbol of God’s immediate presence. The Hebrew University's blog on 'the space between cherubim' delves into the complexities of this concept, discussing how God dwells in the space between the cherubim that is supremely sacred and largely incomprehensible, making artistic representation challenging on many levels Hebrew University Blog, "The Space Between Cherubim," huji.ac.il. From the "Song of Moses", Deuteronomy 31:15 reinforces this concept, where God appears in the cloud and stands above the mercy seat, in the space between the cherubim Deuteronomy 31:15, ESV.

:::::::The by the book covering may press the viewer to think of all the aspects of the ark, inside and outside, sacredness, cherubim, even the easily missed space between cherubim, the golden mercy seat, the common wood and the precious gold together, abstract and concrete physical, how the law was both inside the ark in terse form and also laid next to the ark in longer form and even the incense of the priest. Most artists have not gone in that direction and allow a visualization of the poles, elegant one piece cherubim on each side of the mercy seat as well as the gold and wood construction. "There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel." Ex 25:22 Exodus 25:22, ESV (talk) 14:57, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

The above is kinda a lot to read but from what I can tell most of what you are saying isn't relevant to the text you are seeking to add to the article. Most of what you wrote above would fall under WP:OR, that is, you are reading about the theological significance of the ark's design and of the command to cover it, and you are reading about artistic depictions of the ark through history, but you are putting those two things together yourself instead of a citing a reliable source that puts them together. If none of your sources mention Raiders of the Lost Ark or David and Bathsheba then neither should this wiki article. Until you find those sources, the rest of the discussion is kinda a waste of time: you've already convinced me that the ark was supposed to be covered and you've already convinced me that many artistic depictions ignore this (I agreed with both of those points before we even started this conversation). The issue here isn't whether the information is true, the issue is whether it is up to the quality standards of an encyclopedia in writing style and sourcing. -- LWG ^talk 18:37, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:Then limit the comment to say with prior citation.

:One Bible illustrator admitted, "Just about every Bible artist I know has missed this one! The fact is, the only time we should show the Ark uncovered is when it's in the Holy of Holies." Despite biblical instructions, many artistic depictions show the Ark of the Covenant uncovered during transit, which contradicts the explicit scriptural mandate that it should always be veiled. The Bible instructions are that the Ark should be covered with layers of blue cloth during transportation. Whirlingmerc (talk) 13:01, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

::The best image of the ark particularly as views by the high priest on the day of atonement is from The Temple Institute which is in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem which has a wealth of information and images related. Since it is Passover, they are not available to respond for a week or two. I am asking the artist's name and additional citation information is it is all right with them to be cited with the image. The link is "https://templeinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/ketoret-represents-unity-1000.jpg". Whirlingmerc (talk) 18:00, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure if these sources or information have a place in this article. My initial thoughts were no, due to it being a point of interest more than a "claim"

However, I believe it's worth other editors taking a look to see if this information fits anywhere for this, or if it's something worth mentioning outside of being a "trend"

Some readers may find the information useful or interesting while researching the topic. It can provide historical context that there is continued interest or media attention on the topic.

The main point of conversation for addition is regarding the historical context of modern media attention on the topic, FOIA requests by interested third parties, and to a lesser extent the released CIA document regarding the claim. A point of interest on the CIA document is the difference between what the document says, and what is being sensationalized. Reiterating, my main focus is not the veracity of the claims made, rather the modern interest and response.

The context is:

a CIA document suggests that an asset claimed to have knowledge of the location of something that can be interpreted as The Ark of the Covenant. However, this claim is not made by the CIA. I think it's important to distinguish that the CIA is not claiming anything, rather that an asset of the CIA claimed to have knowledge, which was not subsequently verified.

This has been relevant due to released (previously classified) documents. It should be noted that 'classification' by the US government does not indicate merit/veracity of claims or information.

The sources are provided through the release of US government documents, but included a recent third party article discussing some of the subject.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/03/27/cia-ark-of-the-covenant-resurfaced/82686919007/

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00789R001300180002-7.pdf

Published FOIA requests related:

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/05955966

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/Final%20Letter%5B15992807%5D.pdf Saucelionhotdogwheat (talk) 09:01, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Three recommendations that would improve the article:

1) Replace the problematic picture of Joshua and Caleb kneeling before the ark in the start of the article with a picture of the ark covered in blue cloth carried by priests, blue cloth over the veil of the holy of holies which covers the Ark when moved, as Numbers 4 says.

https://brightmorningstar.org/what-happened-to-the-ark-of-the-covenant/ there is also one covered in red in the harvard collection https://harvardartmuseums.org/collections/object/250963 but blue cloth is the correct color in Numbers.

No ordinary persons are allowed to look at the ark (lest they die and said in strong terms by Moses) and the ark is covered in blue when moved which is the only time Joshua and Caleb would see it as the 1910 cited lithograph shows. Joshua is said to have waited outside the tabernacle when Moses went in (did not go in, no one but the high priest went in). Of course people were to be almost half mile back as the ark moved carried on poles. A half dozen other items from the tabernacle carried on poles and instead of blue cloth under ordinary animal skins as per Numbers 4 and underneath various colored cloths like red blue purple to keep the items in the right places I would move those to the art section of the article as it's an example of an artistic depiction. Joshual and Caleb would not go near the ark or look at it. The high priest would do it and only once a year.

2) The Catholic view that the ark is a type of Mary but that is only one Christian view but the only one presented. Since the view that the Ark is a type of Jesus has been a conservative protestant view of many for centuries, I recommend adding the explanation with the cited references above in discussion of that with Spurgeon, Plummer, Calvin, particularly Psalm 68 quoted in Ephesians by the apostle Paul, a very strong reference. Both views should be presented the Catholic one. Spurgeon had multiple sermons about that. The article references Aquinas supporting the ark somehow a type of Mary is not quite true. Aquinas did not ever write about the ark as a type of Mary, not even once, but wrote some parallels and analogies as Mary. Setting that aside many protestants see. The whole tabernacle/temple, the high priest and the ark all pointing to Jesus and it's too narrow to only present a Catholic view.

Thanks Whirlingmerc (talk) 14:05, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

3) Something to add. Consider adding something about the craft maker of the Ark (and tabernacle). RC Sproul says they are the first people in the Bible said to be filled with the Holy Spirit. The craftsman who led the design and construction of the tabernacle, Bezalel, is said to have been 'filled with the Spirit of God' for the job (Exodus 35.31) and the other person was Oholiab, together chosen to design and build the Tabernacle, as described in Exodus 31:1-5.

:1) The image caption says it is an image of Joshua and Moses, not Joshua and Caleb. The rest of this point has no sources. Is there another image that is compatible with Wikipedia's licensing that you think would be better for this article?

:2) Adding more viewpoints could be fine but we need actual sources and not just your claims. We can't cite Psalm 68 or Ephesians for this kind of claim in an encyclopedia because they are primary sources and if we analyze primary sources ourselves that is what Wikipedia calls original research.

:3) Again, this kind of information might be good to add with actual sources, but citing Exodus 35:31 with your own interpretation is WP:OR.

:Until you read and understand Wikipedia's policies on original research, continuing to post things like this is just wasting time. -- LWG ^talk 20:28, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

:1) In any case almost no theologian thinks Joshua, Moses or Caleb would ever be allowed to go before the ark look at or kneel in front of it as portrayed. Only the high priest went into the Holy of Holies and that once a year. For copyrights it would be consistent to just refer to the image with the blue cloth by the link and no copyright violated. I do see various blogs where there is a more accurate ark carried and covered in blue There may have been some confusion with the artists as Moses went into a tent prior to the ark and tabernacle and Joshua waited outside. Once tabernacle and ark made by the 1st year after the exodus only the high priest went into the holy of holies and only once a year where the ark was).

:2) Scroll up please. I already provided complete references for Spurgeon (a strong example of a respected Baptist preacher), Plummer (a strong Psalms authority) all in total agreement Paul's use in Eph 4 of Psalm 68 was of using the ark ascending as a type of Christ Ascending and it had been a view for many centuries. Even Aquinas supports the dual material of the ark pointing to the dual nature of Jesus (hypostatic union of fully human fully divine).

:see ====The Ark as a type of Christ in conservative protestant, reformed and church history views====

:note references I went back already and picked at bottom of page regarding Spurgeon, Pumber and Aquinas has arguments in favor of the dual material of the ark pointing to the dual nature of Jesus as well. A Spurgeon sermon was cited where the entire sermon was devoted to how Paul using Psalm 68 in Ephesians 4 to point to Jesus asencion as Spurgeon continued to do in many sermons.

:::====The Ark as a type of Christ in conservative protestant, reformed and church history views====

:::

:::Many protestant theologians plainly take Paul’s citation of Psalm 68:8 < ref> 68:8, ESV in Ephesians 4:1-13 Ephesians 4:8, ESV as a plain claim of the ark ascending Mount Zion representing Jesus’s ascension. Charles Spurgeon’s sermon “Our Lord’s Triumphant Ascension” being example where he plainly says “When he says regarding David moving the ark up Mt Zion to Jerusalem that we are no loss for the spiritual interpretation when with song and dance David brought the ark form the home of Obed Edom to Jerusalem. “When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men” C.H. Spurgeon, Pulpit Legends: Christ in the Old Testament,” Our Lord’s Triumphant Ascension”, pp 529-540 He maintained the same view that the ark is a type of Christ in other sermons such as "the Ark our Covenant" where he said “The ark was crowned, but we see Jesus made a little lower than the angels, and crowned King of kings and Lord of lords." And while physically there is the golden mercy seat, "we see the spotless, perfect life, and infinitely precious atonement of Christ, which are better than the much fine gold. I see God, not as a light for the eyes, but as shining upon the soul in Jesus my Lord. Oh, the glory, the glory of that light! I am reconciled! I am a child of God!.” Charles H Spurgeon, September 25, 1881 Scripture: Jeremiah 3:16 From: Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit Volume 27 https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/the-ark-of-the-covenant/#flipbook/.

:::W S Plummer in the Geneva Commentary on Psalms W S Plummer, the Geneva Commentary on Psalms, Psalm 68 p660, first published 1867, ISBN 987095151 The Banner of Truth gives many references to the same view where Psalm 68 having the ark ascend Zion is typological of Jesus ascension as used and quoted in Ephesians 4:8-13.

:::Wayne Grudem Systematic Theology, an introduction to Biblical Doctrine plainly speaks of Paul’s use of Psalm 68 with the Ark of the Covenant ascending Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, an introduction to Biblical Doctrine, Zondervan 1994, ISBN 978-0-310-286707 p 589

:::The use of Ephesians 4 quoting Psalm 68 is perhaps the strongest argument from the ark as a type of Christ but not the only argument as many others hold this view and might add the solid gold cover one piece with the cherubim was beaten pointing to Christ being beaten, the acacia word dry and point to Jesus springing out of dry land in Isiah 53 and some point to the use of common and precious material gold and wood pointing to Jesus dual nature as human and divine. Whirlingmerc (talk) 20:15, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Some theologians focused on the dual materials of the Ark and the dual natures of Christ. Thomas Aquinas compared the two types of materials of the ark to the two natures of Christ in the hypostatic union (Jesus having human and divine natures). "The Ark, wherein were the Law and the manna, signified Christ, Who is 'the living bread that came down from Heaven' and 'the fulfillment of the Law'. Moreover, the wood overlaid with gold signifies that Christ was true man and true God." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica Part: III (Tertia Pars), Question 25, Article 3 Whirlingmerc (talk) 18:01, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:Whirlingmerc (talk) 21:39, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

::Images of the ark in various use with blue cloth covering :

"https://ldsseminary.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ark_covenant_blue-skins.jpg" Ark covered in blue in battle

"https://www.fromreformationtoreformation.com/post/poole-on-1-samuel-4-4-5-israel-s-superstitious-veneration-of-the-ark" Ark carried with people standing back

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63NtDH7qHYY" (a typocal sunday school lesson abount the ark showing David dancing before the ark covered in blue

These are examples. Ironically the Sunday school lesson materials are more accurate in general than the artists were

Whirlingmerc (talk) 15:01, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Are any of those alternative images public domain or available with a free license so they can be used in this article?

::I took another look at your references for the protestant views. It's kinda difficult for me to understand what you are saying, but I agree that it might be worth including in the article (or else removing/reducing the Blessed Virgin Mary section, which seems equally esoteric). I would suggest writing up a proposed section on "The Ark as a Type of Christ" here on the talk page and letting other editors help you work that into something that is an encyclopedia-quality text, since what I'm currently reading is frankly not very understandable. I would rather see no mention of typology at all (Catholic or Protestant) than incomprehensible text walls. -- LWG ^talk 19:26, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

:Stepping back, I think maybe the contrast between the Catholic view which focuses on the contents of the ark pointing to Jesus and the chest container pointing to Mary, a more typical protestant view is Protestants more typically would take a more encompassing stance and see all aspects of the temple pointing to Jesus: the sacrifices, the high priest, the tabernacle/temple, the holy of Holies and not the least being the ark. This has strong biblical support. Given that, I rewrote this leading off with that. It is also not insignificant that the ark slowly disappears, the manna and Aaron's rod no longer in the 1st temple, the whole ark not in the 2nd temple which some see as pointing to the coming of the Messiah and the spotlight on Him.

:=== rewrite to discuss, chop down ====

:In Protestant—particularly Reformed—theology, the Ark of the Covenant is often regarded as only one of many of the encompassing typological representations of Jesus Christ associated with the temple, the temple itself, the sacrifices, the Holy of Holies, and the high priesthood—all seen as anticipatory of Christ.

:Encompassing types in this view would include, but not limited to the Ark’s contents. The manna is understood as foreshadowing Jesus as the Bread of LifeJohn 6:35, ESV. The stone tablets of the Law are taken to represent Christ’s perfect fulfillment of the Mosaic LawMatthew 5:17, ESV. Aaron’s rod, which budded, is sometimes interpreted as a symbol of Christ’s resurrection and divine priesthood. The content of the ark as type of Christ align with the Catholic view.

:This broader typology, which includes the ark but more encompassing, extends types of Christ to the entire Old Testament system of worship. Christ is seen as the true High PriestHebrews 4:14–16, ESV, the ultimate sacrificeHebrews 10:10, ESV, and the one who opens access to the Holy of Holies by His own bloodHebrews 10:19–22, ESV. There would be overlapping agreement with the Catholic view in this and several areas namely the ark contents, the high priest, and sacrifices all representing Jesus but would be even more expansive.

:Support for this broad approach is found in the Epistle to the Hebrews, especially chapters 8 through 10, which describe the earthly tabernacle as a “copy and shadow of the heavenly things”Hebrews 8:5, ESV. Christ is presented as the true High Priest who entered the “greater and more perfect tent” not made with handsHebrews 9:11, ESV, and offered Himself “once for all” as a perfect sacrifice to accomplish eternal redemptionHebrews 10:10–12, ESV.

:This theme is echoed in the Gospel of John, which depicts Christ as the true dwelling place of God. John 1:14 states, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us,” using the Greek term σκηνόω (skēnoō), which literally means “to tabernacle”John 1:14, ESV. Elsewhere, Jesus says, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” referring to His own body. Notably, the Greek word used for "temple" is ναός (naos), typically used to highlight a special presence of God such as in the Holy of Holies, rather than the temple complex at large which is a different word John 2:19–21, ESV. ναός (naos) was sued for temple in the tearing of the temple (naos) veil at Jesus’ death, symbolizing unrestricted access to God through HimMatthew 27:51, ESV.

:Regarding the ark specifically, support for the typology is found in Ephesians 4:8, where the Apostle Paul quotes Psalm 68:18. This psalm describes God's triumphant march through history—often associated with the movement of the Ark of the Covenant—and highlights its ascent to Mount ZionPsalm 68:18, ESV. Paul reinterprets this event as prefiguring Christ’s ascensionEphesians 4:8, ESV, thereby establishing a New Testament lens through which Old Testament imagery is viewed. O Parmer Robinson notes in "The Flow of the Psalms" that the Psalm begins with the blessing said when the ark starts to move. O Palmer Roberson, The Flow of the Psalms, PR Publishing, 2015, p 100

:This ark ascending Zion as type of Christ ascending has been repeatedly advanced by the Baptist Charles Spurgeon, who in his sermon Our Lord’s Triumphant Ascension, applies Psalm 68 directly to ChristCharles Spurgeon, Our Lord’s Triumphant Ascension. In another sermon, The Ark Our Covenant, he draws multiple parallels: the Ark’s crown represents Christ’s kingship, the mercy seat signifies His atonement, and the Shekinah glory above the Ark symbolizes the divine presence dwelling in ChristCharles Spurgeon, The Ark Our Covenant.

:The typological connection between the Ark and Christ is also affirmed by theologians such as psalms authority W.S. Plumer, in the Geneva Commentary on the Psalms, and Wayne Grudem, in his Systematic TheologyW.S. Plumer, Geneva Commentary on Psalms, Psalm 68 p660, first published 1867, ISBN 987095151 The Banner of Truth Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, an introduction to Biblical Doctrine, Zondervan 1994, ISBN 978-0-310-286707 p 589.

:The physical design of the Ark further contributes to this interpretation. Constructed from acacia wood overlaid with gold, the Ark is often understood as representing the dual nature of Christ—fully human and fully divine. The mercy seat, overshadowed by cherubim and sprinkled with sacrificial blood, is seen as a figure of Christ’s atoning death. The cherubim, hammered from a single piece of gold, are sometimes viewed as symbolic of His suffering. The use of acacia wood—a durable material from arid regions—has been linked to Isaiah 53:2’s depiction of the Messiah as “a root out of dry ground”Isaiah 53:2, ESV.

:Although this interpretive approach is prominent in Protestant thought, it is not exclusive to it. Thomas Aquinas, for example, also viewed the Ark as a figure of Christ. He interpreted the gold and wood construction as representing Christ’s divine and human natures, respectively, and saw the contents of the Ark—the manna, the law tablets, and Aaron’s rod—as pointing to Christ as the Bread of Life, the fulfillment of the Law, and the eternal High PriestThomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, III, q. 60–83.

Whirlingmerc (talk) 16:39, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

:Perhaps limit the ark as a type of Christ to just saying this: (well commented, mainstream, and addresses the artical only representing Catholic Marian views of the ark but not Protestant views (and the ark as a type of Christ would in fact include the Catholic theologian Aquinas ). So consider adding the following:

:::: Psalm 68 has the ark ascending Mount Zion as a triumph of Yahweh. Paul applies that Psalm to Jesus triumphant ascension. Many protestant theologians take Paul’s citation of Psalm 68:8 < ref> 68:8, ESV in Ephesians 4:1-13 Ephesians 4:8, ESV as a plain claim of the ark ascending Mount Zion representing Jesus’s ascension. Charles Spurgeon’s sermon “Our Lord’s Triumphant Ascension” being example where he plainly says “When he says regarding David moving the ark up Mt Zion to Jerusalem that we are no loss for the spiritual interpretation when with song and dance David brought the ark form the home of Obed Edom to Jerusalem. “When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men” C.H. Spurgeon, Pulpit Legends: Christ in the Old Testament,” Our Lord’s Triumphant Ascension”, pp 529-540 He maintained the same view that the ark is a type of Christ in other sermons such as "the Ark our Covenant" where he said “The ark was crowned, but we see Jesus made a little lower than the angels, and crowned King of kings and Lord of lords." And while physically there is the golden mercy seat, "we see the spotless, perfect life, and infinitely precious atonement of Christ, which are better than the much fine gold. I see God, not as a light for the eyes, but as shining upon the soul in Jesus my Lord. Oh, the glory, the glory of that light! I am reconciled! I am a child of God!.” Charles H Spurgeon, September 25, 1881 Scripture: Jeremiah 3:16 From: Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit Volume 27 https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/the-ark-of-the-covenant/#flipbook/.

::::W S Plummer in the Geneva Commentary on Psalms W S Plummer, the Geneva Commentary on Psalms, Psalm 68 p660, first published 1867, ISBN 987095151 The Banner of Truth gives many references to the same view where Psalm 68 having the ark ascend Zion is typological of Jesus ascension as used and quoted in Ephesians 4:8-13.

::::Wayne Grudem Systematic Theology, an introduction to Biblical Doctrine plainly speaks of Paul’s use of Psalm 68 with the Ark of the Covenant ascending Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, an introduction to Biblical Doctrine, Zondervan 1994, ISBN 978-0-310-286707 p 589

:Whirlingmerc (talk) 13:11, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

It would not be completely possible to use secular sources only for the Ark of the covenant but the following has improved citations.

Since there are copyright issues and the best sources for covering the ark are Sunday school material not artists generally.. how about adding something like the following illustrating in words that the ark is behind the veil of the temple when in the holy of holies or when moved and never looked at casually.

________ see below ________

Access to the Ark was strictly limited. According to Leviticus 16:2 Leviticus 16:2, ESV and Leviticus 16:34, ESV, only the high priest was permitted to enter the Holy of Holies, and only once a year on the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for the sins of the people. The ark was behind the veil of the Holy of Holies.

According to Numbers 4:5 Numbers 4:5, ESV, even when the Israelites prepared to move, Aaron and his sons were instructed to take down the shielding curtain—the veil separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place—and cover the Ark of the Covenant with it. This procedure ensured that the Ark, representing the presence of God, remained concealed and protected during transport and not to look at it as emphasized in Numbers 4:20 Numbers 4:20, ESV, which warns that the Kohathites, the Levitical clan assigned to carry the Ark, “shall not go in to look on the holy things even for a moment, lest they die.” Whirlingmerc (talk) 17:02, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

:Biblical texts are not reliable sources, and should not be used in citations. Do you have modern, secular sources supporting this narrative?Dimadick (talk) 23:53, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

::I added citations below

::"Access to the Ark was strictly limited. According to Leviticus 16:13, only the High Priest was permitted to enter the Holy of Holies, and only once a year on the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for the sins of the people. Both Benson and Gill note in their commentaries that the High Priest brought incense using coals from the altar to obscure his view of the Ark, lest he die.Benson, Joseph. Commentary on the Old and New Testaments. London: T. Cordeux, 1811–1818. Commentary on Leviticus 16:13.Gill, John. Exposition of the Entire Bible. London: Edward and Charles Dilly, 1746–1763 (complete edition). Commentary on Leviticus 16:13, p 103 “Only the High Priest was permitted to enter the inner sanctum, the Holy of Holies, and only once a year, on the Day of Atonement... The high priest entered with incense to create a cloud of smoke, concealing the Ark and preventing a direct view of the divine presence.” Baruch A. Levine, Leviticus, JPS Torah Commentary Series, 1989

:: The Priests use of the coals from the altar for his eyes is in stark contrast with the angel using coals from the altar for Isiah's mouth. In Leviticus 16:13, the high priest places incense on burning coals to create a cloud that conceals the presence of the Lord, shielding him from death during the Day of Atonement. This ritual emphasizes the danger of God's holiness to sinful humanity and the necessity of separation. In stark contrast, Isaiah 6 presents a vision where the prophet sees the Lord enthroned without a veil, and a seraph touches his lips with a live coal from the altar—not to shield him, but to purify and commission him. As R.C. Sproul notes, “No man could see God and live… But God didn’t kill Isaiah. He healed him,” emphasizing that the coal represented not destruction but divine grace and cleansing through atonement (R.C. Sproul, The Holiness of God, Tyndale House, 1985, pp. 30–32). Similarly, Alec Motyer explains that “the burning coal from the altar signifies that forgiveness is rooted in sacrifice… The very place where the fire of judgment falls becomes the source of grace” (Alec Motyer, The Prophecy of Isaiah: An Introduction and Commentary, IVP Academic, 1993, p. 77).

::Since only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies and was warned to approach reverently “lest he die,” the law required golden bells on the hem of his garment Exodus 28:35, ESV. Later Jewish mysticism, notably the Zohar—a 13th-century Kabbalistic text traditionally attributed to Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai—mentions a rope tied to the High Priest’s leg to retrieve him if he died inside Zohar, Vol. 2, Parashat Acharei Mot, 67a. In Daniel C. Matt, The Zohar: Pritzker Edition, Vol. 6 (Stanford University Press, 2011). This suggests if the priest was not heard moving, the belief was they pulled him out with the rope.

::According to Numbers 4:5-6, when the Israelites prepared to move, Aaron and his sons were instructed to take down the shielding curtain—the veil separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place—and cover the Ark of the Covenant with it. A weather resistant animal hide would go over it for protection and a blue cloth over that would uniquely distinguish it from other items carried. This procedure ensured that the Ark, representing the presence of God, remained concealed and protected during transport and was not to be looked upon, as emphasized in Numbers 4:20, which warns that the Kohathites, the Levitical clan assigned to carry the Ark, 'shall not go in to look on the holy things even for a moment, lest they die.'Benson, Joseph. Commentary on the Old and New Testaments. London: T. Cordeux, 1810, Commentary on Numbers 4:5,6; 4:20.Gill, John. Exposition of the Entire Bible. London: Edward and Charles Dilly, 1746–1763 (complete edition). Commentary on Numbers 4:20. “Contact with or vision of sacred objects could result in death—not because of magical properties, but as a boundary marker of holiness and divine otherness. The injunctions in Numbers 4 are protective rituals.” Mary Douglas, Leviticus as Literature, Oxford University Press, 1999, pp 69-80

::“The Ark was veiled before the Kohathites could approach. The text (Numbers 4:5–20) reveals a carefully structured ritual designed to prevent profanation through unauthorized contact or sight.”

:: Jacob Milgrom, Numbers, JPS Torah Commentary Series, 1990, pp 24-25

::These prohibitions not to touch or look at the ark contrast sharply with King David's expression in Psalm 27 of his desire to 'gaze upon the beauty of the LORD.'" “David did not so much desire to dwell in the temple itself, as to have opportunity to enjoy the spiritual blessings which were shadowed forth by the external symbols.” Calvin’s Commentary on Psalm 27 Whirlingmerc (talk) 15:41, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

::When possible secular sources are great, not always possible. Not always possible to get secular Sourses for a topic such as this particularly since the ark location unknown for over 2500 years. A significant source would still be Bible and theologians. Whirlingmerc (talk) 14:44, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

The archeologist Leom Ritmeyer has suggested a layout of the original temple and Holy of Holies, suggesting Solomon made a groove for the ark seen on old photographs related to the Dome of the Rock. https://www.ritmeyer.com/2019/06/24/here-in-this-carved-out-place-stood-the-ark-of-the-covenant/ https://www.ritmeyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/arkplacement-1.jpg In this view the ark would be oriented with the poles aways in it and poles touching the curtain, the veil of the Holy of Holies, as opposed to perpendicular to it as often depicted. The Association of Biblical Research has a diagram showing that orientation. https://biblearchaeology.org/images/image.axd.gif where it says "Precisely in the center of the Holy of Holies as laid out by Ritmeyer, is a rectangular cutout in the bedrock measuring 4 ft 4 in x 2 ft 7 in. Based on his measurement of the Biblical 'cubit,' Ritmeyer suggests the Ark was exactly this size. Thus, according to Ritmeyer, the Ark once sat at the exact center of the Holy of Holies-in this very indentation on es-Sakhra beneath the Dome of the Rock!" Whirlingmerc (talk) 13:25, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

The ark is often presented and spoken of with the original contents, but those disappeared over time. The Ark of the Covenant originally housed the stone tablets of the Law, a jar of manna, and Aaron's rod that budded Hebrews 9:4, ESVExodus 16:33–34, ESVNumbers 17:10, ESV. While the tablets were placed inside the Ark Exodus 25:16, ESV, the Book of the Law—a longer written form—was placed beside the Ark as instructed by Moses Deuteronomy 31:26, ESV. The law originally was both inside the ark and outside. Over time, these sacred items were no longer preserved together. This included the ark and eventually the temple containing it.

During the period of Solomon’s Temple (the First Temple), the Ark of the Covenant remained, but the jar of manna and Aaron’s rod were no longer present within it 1 Kings 8:9, ESV. By the time of the Second Temple, constructed after the Babylonian exile, the Ark itself was absent, and its ultimate location remains unknown Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 3, Chapter 6, Section 52 Maccabees 2:4–8.

Some theologians view this progressive absence of items as theologically significant: Theodore D. Ehrlich suggests the Ark may have been deliberately removed or hidden during political turmoil rather than destroyed Theodore D. Ehrlich, “The Disappearance of the Ark of the Covenant,” Jewish Bible Quarterly, Vol. 40, No. 3, 2012. Tim Staples argues that the missing contents point to the fading of Old Covenant symbols, which are ultimately fulfilled in Christ Tim Staples, “An Ark of the Covenant Mystery,” Catholic Answers Magazine (Online Edition), 2021. Jonathan Mitchell sees prophetic meaning in the loss of the rod and manna, interpreting it as a foreshadowing of the end of the Aaronic priesthood and the dawn of a New Covenant era Jonathan Mitchell, “Aaron’s Rod and the Pot of Manna Missing,” Greater Emmanuel, 2020. Whirlingmerc (talk) 14:52, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

Hi Whirlingmerc, frankly the walls of text you have been posting here are too long and incoherent for me to take the time to read. I understand that you are mostly concerned about some specific aspects of typology and about what you perceive to be inaccuracies in artistic depictions of the ark. I would suggest letting the artistic inaccuracies issue drop at this point since after much effort it doesn't seem like you understand wikipedia's policy on Original Research well enough to engage with that issue at this time. The other addition, about the typology, was well sourced and helpful. I cleaned up the writing to be a little more clear and to match the source you cited more closely. Thanks for your contributions, I would suggest finding some new areas to edit that are less complex for a while and working on clearer, more succinct communication. -- LWG ^talk 17:01, 14 April 2025 (UTC)