Talk:Armenia#rfctag

Hi,

@Largoplazo reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Armenia&oldid=prev&diff=1282930331 my edit].

I understand that there were previous discussions on this topic but I don't understand the outcome nor do I understand the discrepancy with Georgia and Azerbaijan. For Georgia (country) we have: {{tq|Georgia[c] is a country in Eastern Europe and West Asia.}} citing the Encyclopædia Britannica, [https://www.britannica.com/place/Caucasus Caucasus]:

"One widely accepted scheme draws the dividing line along the crest of the Greater Caucasus range, putting the portion of the region north of the line in Europe and the portion south of it in Asia. Another puts the western portion of the Caucasus region in Europe and the eastern part (the bulk of Azerbaijan and small portions of Armenia, Georgia, and Russia’s Caspian Sea coast) in Asia. Still another scheme identifies the Aras River and the Turkish border as the line of continental demarcation, thereby locating Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia in Europe."

This quote is also cited in Boundaries_between_the_continents#Modern_definition with {{tq|The international geographic community has never reached a universal agreement on continental borders, especially with regard to the Caucasus region between the Black and Caspian seas}}

For Azerbaijan: {{tq|a transcontinental and landlocked country at the boundary of West Asia and Eastern Europe.}} citing various sources.

So if there's no international consensus regarding the Europe/Asia border and if reliable sources put Armenia in Europe and/or Asia, why is the consensus here different? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:27, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

:There is no universal agreement, which there won't be for something that's a matter of convention, but generally the Caucasus crest is the given border. It is for example the border Britannica uses as the default (and they used to use the Kuma–Manych Depression, further north). CMD (talk) 15:17, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

::WP:CON at Talk:Europe dictates that the three countries of the Caucasus can be placed in both Europe and Asia respectively, based on the geographical or geopolitical definition being used. For consistency purposes, and to adhere to existing consensus, the short description should be updated to include Eastern Europe. Archives908 (talk) 15:30, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

:::That's not how CON works, that's WP:OSE. CMD (talk) 15:36, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Do you mean WP:OTHERCONTENT? WP:OSE is about whether an article should exist (which I'm just now discovering, and scratching my head because I'm remembering that it also used to be about content; and now I'm seeing a complex history of retargeting and moves that possibly have led to WP:OSE no longer leading to commentary that it used to lead to). Largoplazo (talk) 16:12, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::You're right, that September 2021 rfd has a lot to answer for. CMD (talk) 01:47, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Setting aside my previous comment, I never figured it to apply to whether articles should be consistent over their treatment of something for which consensus has been developed somewhere. Saying something it's OK to have something in article B because it's in article A is one thing when it could be just as wrong in article A; but if there was consensus to have article A the way it is, that makes the argument for article B a little stronger, it seems to me. If we want a more formal overarching consensus about Wikipedia not contradicting itself from article to article on this point, maybe it's time for an RFC. Largoplazo (talk) 16:16, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Only RS matter. And RS say that 1/ Armenia is geographically in Asia (most widely accepted definition), Europe, or across both and 2/ Armenia views itself as part of Europe and is considered geopolitically European. The short description "Country in West Asia and Europe" would accurately represent this. Wdyt? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:50, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

::Indeed, no universal agreement, that's why the article should mention in the lede that some sources also consider Armenia as part of Europe (not only geopolitically). As noted in the [https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/armenia/ CIA World Factbook]: {{tq|Armenia views itself as part of Europe}}. Also, the article is in :Category:Countries in Europe. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:07, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

:::The official website of the Armenian Ministry of Foreign Affairs states clearly that geographically:

:::[https://www.mfa.am/en/overview/ The country is situated in western part of Asia, occupies the north-eastern part of Armenian plateau – between Caucasus and Nearest Asia]

:::That is the consensus on the geographical position of Armenia, what you are talking about is geopolitical affiliation with Europe which is already reflected in the lede, geographically however Armenia is entirely situated in Asia and this is recognized by the Armenian government, we should not be confusing geopolitics with actual geography. TagaworShah (talk) 13:54, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

::::1. We use secondary RS. The MFA website is not one.

::::2. Britannica says that sources put Armenia in Asia, Europe or both.

::::3. CIA World Factbook: "Armenia views itself as part of Europe"

::::4. If the short description says "Country in West Asia and Europe" it does not mean "Country geographically in West Asia and Europe".

::::5. The page is already in the category "Countries in Europe" so for consistency the short description should match. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:14, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::Agreed- what a government "believes" is not the point here. The point is that there are other geographical definitions which do include Armenia either entirely or partially in Europe. The short description should be updated to reflect that. Archives908 (talk) 14:18, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::There are myriad different proposed borders, we do not need to reflect them all given there is a common one. CMD (talk) 15:11, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Agree with CMD, the most widely accepted geographical designations put Armenia in Asia, this is also reflected in majority of secondary sources and consensus, I just mentioned the MFA to refute the allegation that Armenia considers itself geographically in Europe. The CIA also states that Armenia is often considered part of the Middle East yet that’s not included, so I don’t see why we should include other geographical designations that don’t match the widespread consensus. TagaworShah (talk) 15:37, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Also the CIA world factbook states clearly that Armenia is geographically in Asia despite what it considers itself to be or its geopolitical position, in fact they label it as Central Asia in the title and Southwestern Asia in the geography section. TagaworShah (talk) 15:42, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::The CIA mentions this about the geopolitical affiliation. RS say about Armenia that it is:

:::::::::* Part of Europe (geographically), with other RS saying Asia or across both

:::::::::* Part of Europe (geopolitically)

:::::::::* Self-identified as European

:::::::::All of this is mentioned and sources in the article. So the short description should be aligned with the body and RS. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:37, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::It is aligned, in its weight and intent. There is a broader question as to how geographic location serves the purpose of "complement and clarify the page title", but that doesn't seem to be the one being raised. CMD (talk) 15:41, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::Still not consistent with the categories. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:19, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

:Armenia is in Europe according to European Union policy because it says any European country can apply for membership so it means Armenia meets to policy because Armenia approved membership bill https://ibb.co/3YP6gzV8 212.34.242.138 (talk) 08:40, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::European Union policy decides things only for purposes of the European Union. The various definitions of Europe existed long before there was a European Union. Largoplazo (talk) 10:46, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I am talking about the European Union policy that they made for membership application for those countries who is European not issues in the union you should understand the differences of what I'm saying 212.34.242.138 (talk) 00:09, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I understand that's what you were saying and that's what I responded to. Largoplazo (talk) 01:26, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I don't think that you're understanding just you are defending your Ilogicall UN organization. Americans are so proud of their things right? But it doesn't mean they are the Gods or heavenly truths 212.34.242.138 (talk) 14:07, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::Surprised nobody brought up UEFA as the only thing that matters. Mellk (talk) 09:19, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::or bringing up Ilogically an example of Eurovision which is not Union. It's just a show that accept countries outside of Europe and UEFA is a sport because I think Israel is there but not in Council of Europe and can't be 212.34.242.138 (talk) 14:11, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

{{edit extended-protected|Armenia|answered=yes}}

Under "Demographics/Religion" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia#Religion), there is a picture of a monastery and Mount Ararat. The caption currently says: "The 7th-century Khor Virap monastery in the shadow of Mount Ararat, the peak on which Noah's Ark, is said to have landed during the biblical flood." The comma after "Noah's Ark" should be removed for grammatical reasons. Ironox1 (talk) 21:09, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

:{{done}}. Mellk (talk) 21:15, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

According to European Union policy any European country can apply for membership so which means Armenia is not in Asia. It's in Europe because Armenia government approved the membership bill which means it meets to EU policy https://ibb.co/3YP6gzV8. Armenian government just didn't sent request to UN for change this disinformation 212.34.242.138 (talk) 08:34, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:If EU policy is the sole determining factor, for all purposes for the whole world, as to what is and isn't Europe, then how do you suppose anyone knew what was and wasn't part of Europe before there was an EU? Largoplazo (talk) 10:41, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::what you are saying it doesn't make sense because European Union doesn't accept none European countries. And it's not about just European Union policy, it's about geography. What it says allegedly we are Asia it's from UN which is wrong. Even in Armenia the chair standing Committee on European Union integration was talking in his interview for the local channel Euromedia24 regarding of EU documents about that the country should be Europe country. Just it's mistakenly Armenia follow still illogical UN. Maybe they are shy or afraid and it's need to send request to change the information about us because even they define Czech Republic Hungary Poland as Eastern Europe. Those are Central. For example Czech Republic can't be Eastern Europe logically because it's bordering with Germany Poland Austria Slovakia. But you should know that not all the world is following the UN even in Brazil they teach in their geography school class South Caucasus created as political term is in Europe. I had asked to one Brazil girl who was working in book publishing company and in Asia some people call us Europe too. Also there is a criteria for the Council of Europe🇪🇺 none of countries joined the European Union without being member of the Council of Europe first which means should be first member of the Council of Europe and just exactly Canada USA Mexico Japan Israel received observer status in the Council of Europe not membership because they are not Europe country. In Armenia we have even companies who is just exactly saying we are in Europe

::Here are some resources

::Armenian company

::https://ibb.co/XZ9548KK

::Armenian company

::https://ibb.co/1JXtGf5Q

::USA Research Center

::https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/11/03/many-central-and-eastern-europeans-see-link-between-religion-and-national-identity/

::World Atlas, Canada

::https://ibb.co/PZFBvg8X

::Gemini says also we are in Europe

::https://ibb.co/s7vQw9f

::World Atlas and Gazetteer Gazetteer is a geographical dictionary

::https://ibb.co/gLTxPsTy

::From Brazil

::https://ibb.co/nMGLgXtJ

::Britain also

::https://ibb.co/Wv5sfwVm

::Spain educational blog

::https://ibb.co/ZzKqxgMX

::Euronews.Travel

::https://ibb.co/SwSzD5rn

::Speech by European Parliament member

::https://ibb.co/fz421mvc 212.34.242.138 (talk) 00:00, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::{{tq|what you are saying it doesn't make sense because European Union doesn't accept none European countries.}} If that's true, then it's based on their chosen definition of Europe which, again, is not a definition shared by everyone in the world.

:::As for the rest of what you wrote, I'm not diving into the nth repeat of the same discussion that's been held here before. And certainly not two copies of the same discussion that you, for some unimaginable reason, choose to launch concurrently. Largoplazo (talk) 01:22, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::::if it's true? You should pay attention on the website in screenshot which is from European Commission not from me instead of bring up unreliable theories about my country. If you're not agree it doesn't mean their policy is nothing ok? And if it's not serious policy why then USA Canada Mexico Japan Israel received observer status in the Council of Europe not membership. You should think logically. The Council of Europe is also for Europe not for Asia or Americas etc 212.34.242.138 (talk) 14:04, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::::let me remind you that your Ilogicall UN definitions just exactly are not shared by everyone because as I told not everyone is teaching in their country South Caucasus in Asia. If it's not shared by USA Mexico Japan Israel then I think they could be member of the Council of Europe 🇪🇺 not giving importance on their policy ok!!! 212.34.242.138 (talk) 14:18, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::::So this is again the screenshot from the European commission where it says the policy and it's not saying any European Asian American African country can apply for the membership it says any European country can apply for the membership https://ibb.co/0NgN4GK 212.34.242.138 (talk) 14:26, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I'm going to tell you one more time that I don't care what EU policy is and that it isn't a deciding factor. An organization that is less than 70 years old doesn't have an undisputed say for any purposes other than its own on the definition of what has been known as "Europe" since many centuries before its founding. You seem to think that in response to this, that the EU's definition is irrelevant, you can just keep repeating more and more strongly what the EU's position is, and that will somehow overcome the irrelevance of it. That's what isn't logical. Largoplazo (talk) 15:10, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::you can talk as much as you want defending nonsense organization called United Nation. As I told It's not about just policy, EU, it's about geography it doesn't matter when the European Union was created and United Nation haven't been always. It was created after WW2. European Union made policy that only European country according to geography can join the European Union. European Union has a article 49 according to which Armenia is European country. It's meeting to their criterias even if you don't care. Maybe USA doesn't have article and policy which would say only American country can join the USA but European Union has and the Council of Europe has even if you don't like that I don't care. I don't care United Nation definition which is not logically. I told you United Nation it's illogical organization who is defining the countries not correctly and inaccurate. I just believe there is something which is bothering in my country that they are not sending request for correct this mistake because chair standing committee of European Union integration told me that he knows about Armenia being Europe country and he was talking about European documents where it says country should be in Europe for have right to join. United Nation shouldn't decide that. For example Turkey also sent request for change their country name into Türkiye and they changed so if Armenia send in the future request for change the location information United Nation will change that. It's not something eternal for couldn't be changed in it. So it doesn't make sense to follow United Nation while they define some countries like Czech Republic Hungary Poland as Eastern Europe so which means it doesn't make sense to listen them and the policy of the European Union and Council of Europe is shared globally because USA, Canada, Mexico, Japan, Israel, received observer status in the Council of Europe, they didn't receive membership, those have not granted membership in the organization it's not that hard to understand. So even if you are not caring about the European policy it doesn't change anything. United Nation is not deciding everything in this world and is not global truth because even American Research Center called Pew Research Center is not defining us Asia. And not all countries are sharing UN illogical definitions. It's not normal to follow some organization who is defining wrong and illogical geographical territories. 212.34.242.138 (talk) 22:55, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

I propose updating the geographic classification of Armenia from solely “Asia” to “Europe/Asia” or “Transcontinental”, to better reflect its location in the South Caucasus and its historical, cultural, and political ties with Europe. Armenchik15 (talk) 09:24, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:This is already in the lead. CMD (talk) 09:39, 27 May 2025 (UTC)