Talk:Australian Cattle Dog

There's several issues with the article that lead me to believe it wouldn't pass a featured article review - the use of self-published sources for many content claims, including life expectancy; and some guidebook/non-breed specific content on grooming.

I've updated the life expectancy to use data from a peer reviewed and independent study published this year, so that is no longer an issue. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:24, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@ 204.48.93.206 (talk) 19:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Currently under the 'As pets' heading is content that goes against the WP:NOTGUIDEBOOK policy, specifically the grooming section and the training section. In addition the behaviour listed as natural Australian Cattle Dog behaviour is just generic dog behaviour that isn't breed specific.

I'm in favour of changing the two sections so they look like this:

Grooming

Known as a "wash and wear" dog, the Australian Cattle Dog is not a year-round shedder but blows its coat once a year (twice in the case of intact females).Beauchamp (1997), pp. 67, 77

Training

Like other working breeds, the Australian Cattle Dog is intelligent and responsive; both of these traits can be an advantage in training where a structured, varied program is used, but can lead to unwanted outcomes if training is not consistent, or is repetitive and boring for the dog.Schwartz (2009), pp. 78–102 The Australian Cattle Dog is biddable, and responds well to training.Stockman (2002), p. 102

{{reflist talk}}

Traumnovelle (talk) 01:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi,

This weekend I've put this chart together thanks to information that was laying around and looking into also rendering illustrations in order for it to make a nice poster eventually. So yeah let me know if this tree makes any sense or of there are bits that are incorrect, happy to make it as good as possible. Seems like my hound is the "older type" that was kept for work out country that was deregistered as they started infusing with Dalmatians and Kelpies in the 30s.

Would you guys like to have this one up on the page once it's locked in?

Here is the graph itself that can be edited directly on draw.io https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p3ILiNEHqDLFLcUSm5Ww9UbB_Z5jmA9w/view?usp=sharing

Here is a picture of it that I exported https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EeJLDqWSwNrt90RvbpraHKos2bCU5Qx_/view?usp=sharing

Cheers! Guilbrynski (talk) 05:51, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:If you want to add an image it'd first need to be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons with you releasing the image under a suitable licence. The image is currently a bit hard to follow and figure out what starts where, although I don't know what specifically to do to improve that. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:11, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::g'day mate, cheers for your response, that's helpful, will first work on readability of it, then will post it back see how y'go. Tada! 2405:6E00:492:7D8E:84BF:CBFA:D1BF:9F29 (talk) 21:21, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Heya, here is my latest revision of this diagram, quoted all the sources that allowed us to put it together

:::[https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VOwS1eXdue-HsE8vlMS9je2VFYOqk_6P/view?usp=sharing Here (Public Hyperlink)]

:::or

:::[https://viewer.diagrams.net/?tags=%7B%7D&lightbox=1&highlight=0000ff&edit=_blank&layers=1&nav=1&title=Blue%20Heeler%20Origins%202.0.drawio&dark=auto#R%3Cmxfile%3E%3Cdiagram%20name%3D%22Page-1%22%20id%3D%22GA05AINC8tgDtTU3HKPZ%22%3E7V1bd9q4Fv41WZM%2BwLIN5vIYQtJ00qaZpNPMPHUJI0DFthjb5NKH%2Be1HWxdfhTHBBMKctWYaLNuyvbW%2FfZd00jr3nj8GaDH7QsfYPbGM8fNJa3hiWabVM9kfaHmRLd22JVqmARnLtqThnvzCstGQrUsyxmHmwohSNyKLbKNDfR87UaYNBQF9yl42oW72qQs0xYWGewe5xdYHMo5morVnG0n7FSbTmXqyacgzHlIXy4Zwhsb0KdXUujhpnQeURuKX93yOXaCeoou473LF2fjFAuxHVW5oND7ffBv9fXtnGNeDH1d3Z%2B1o3DB7optH5C7lF59YHZd1OBixH1P4MST%2BlKpW1n98Ir4yyLeMyaNqOj1bhlGAXIJ89pwnwuhvGaMA4%2FGHVJ%2BpGzR9%2FAvktuFbfD6GS3%2BMIkLhwAloGFbuaPUbV79VNXwLEIkYd53pSWPcExdGxjoHliUBdjG8KBzNMIoaEXVxgNQFY7ocMZYDPkayifhhRHwnIo%2BY3xOMcbDqbTl%2FRS%2BKaQOgEIZxN9nppxmJ8P0COXD2ieGUtc0iz5Wn2dBMffbbxZOkszRbSU57xEGEn1NNks0%2BYurhKHhhl8SwN5swXHCXxH3D6koYPCUoMhWKZmkEtWQjksidxv0nzM1%2BSP7W8%2Fq3P%2B6%2FN7rT0ed%2F5sbv9K8%2F%2FrHQoGGuZ%2FULf%2BqScAaj55FoNiGYs%2Bs5dV2CXw2BwmNOdV2dIw9z%2BkTw%2FBBHEWOQsDpI%2FvTnPn0CTAisMPpBN%2B5E4Y3BuHJnn%2BmS4xQFc36bwcH2k44q93CFgZHZC%2FghETz8WqDdzlCI4W3oEnocLzFXAuyfpR8uSYRGxCUR8N%2FpNZPb4Zx8KBuqw8aOrdhfAcc0NcDp6oBj1gAcrZKwKiBniFym8biQX036FN0%2FeYuAPvJhFcQHBcnUI4jC6SsEumr4gogfsf95z09Use9R8Yhp5oRrp6%2FhkbbVtItc0t0Vk1TgkbNz1mx8RwHhes%2BwmkZFbjlbLDCjGIyp2e8aIRdITygY713zIw%2BG2x%2BFi2yXycV0wQ0AUN7GJz9ipCRTjHzGLVzNhy7xPH4ynC%2BBzNA4YQwMTSPqy8uE9WAEGCmLIMLeglkQHjcyjGjG7SsakCnxkbsXugzECE1oUIUwDvUWTGLEwFSKbzlaBiP%2BMaADGXz3Y979GeKVtl32484RqGopbvgYAMBx9AbCBAWOdJnMTj2ypdXO6Z%2B%2BRrZYHZ3%2BsXemfzYXLSaIFuP062RCHILcUmFfzhhfcJAzzMMFduYMj8oqYuqmDrzV637o8RcuBLBi7uv8s6S8W%2BTMp5wTGw51GQdDvwbz2%2FxQsdOAEyE%2B58LIN8bMQDwNpqNTQ9BG%2Ffkg%2FsIZy7bFQfrHhw%2FireTjqwrLtAMkviVLnUP%2FvuV0CiKSC3QUTLEU8dIvHNFn4R3KS0LpQXLBAiSBRvwcBZh7CmGEPCbr15CkMkceOu1KhftWX65TYBuK%2FnHAlDJIBCQDEsYMBdyRjHDAkOoLGqFRSAPWmzEnzpxf7sMD5xgv0ubqPtXdWr19xQa3sQiYPbIMJBvKWIzQfzCKPo24scJ0PObKTYZulGbH%2FiMJIGInrJeyl96m9bDM9lYnp1q7lka1WhrVahk1qNab75Pej7%2Bcp9nyo%2F35Fx7c%2Bl6krPYUkfB4iu%2FlIQ2iGZ1SZk9eJK2DhIwGO0qu%2BUyZ9BbE%2B8kstxdpmaAl89UzpGUkDF7%2BSh%2F8DZ0xd0UeDp9l5%2BLoRR6tHIOQLgMHl1gQHXFdBDI3KrM0%2BuJCIELpkAbYRdwOz8Sb6x6douFzGVCPtVygwH1ZBdYUBO4j6swrogO%2B%2BTMaYVePA4cRnemg1gAYnjjIPZMnPDIeC77AIfmFRrw%2FGK4FZa44J4k9OLGH2gEsY8oCsuIov3zISTqQrkMcYynT7mRAJzuqPH6y71v4lqTjXqZPq529n04mIZj%2FudGP3%2B%2F1lnBnvSV8hVz3N1AtVxi7mYjxWuswzThLxxEeJw8jorEQ4jeA9hGziJne%2Bi1crX%2B0rnv2of%2BavRZ35E9DEcH7xZ8wguEze22jeuBzU9M4E5mfMSo1fLJYcMXLW5jcdQXGmQFG4itHQHMGQBGzEj7AOHYMajI5tAGRITMuRBjLUfaGS%2FnxmDDiMes4VAo2TrbsxvE1uPJnKn0ZCKPcGC25lTMO6ONa0%2BWdqedWr6J6Nts7C6pVcH2%2FODdMkPkc85%2BJX5qmSOfl7vBPJkoT0I0oCjbIyQ1RhAXGDLPfNqoHae4wCpm5qLhdWvmfvAU3J1NWfxWe2YxLshxWA8907LxJZ2gisTqe6eyMZdorWYYTUuPgsY%2BNGpJU3H1TmFrpgsVMIFLDxunZlPk4G4XUd%2FVK19hdJLm6RDV9xIHHfY%2F7GV4ssqHj%2Fb0s8qcooEDCK%2BDNPbxTGo5E9bptLCD%2F9Nh4LD5f5IHS4QxQtmgqw8Lnont2QgWKN%2FL5t1ExdcgHq9vM5Wp6HY2E6GgyNWYdTp%2Fey6mgVbilt%2FSkrSfNn0bK7AGNz4b0wjpharLfD1ewrtbQrCFbzvQFe8Mk32Aw9bGgId7cbNxVCr0uLO085lohm%2FUeY60Dbq8bXiF%2BD6U00pymfhRQd82HvoaTVnP68cSzOgWDWWf8aEsVrBpE22Pn7p9LZz6fRQ%2FL77P%2BOLieTZSDvKd4ViqE9Xf6XO3xLBWnSge0tPRo7SueVfraZYrnPlp6C3ilbzytxkzL%2B2%2Fnw6oJvHMSOIhHEOwNXJIB1DXJPJ6MXbNRgT8URH8cUmGmCvhMQow4LlM3YaRUAyeixwwVIVp4fVKSjU%2F68IHB2N%2Bb%2BwfQXSjwKr%2FmLXsnHplgbj9KKiKYMy6e%2BfBglsjwA5YkptFvtrIxtUZLV9PS1wmTndU9qVKsMnYd8JoN4xsOApG1PM8VpJZxqyO51SPMb%2BtztgBLeRm8rNYfqdsvnhc4IOkUymaG1ZCEoAGJv4Shr5Tw%2Bh1BiZZbElV%2Bx%2FosX7PabutMdQ0L7qyoqlXBUo8d3rWZu81MlzSjxWWxD6LERRTEVhewqfotCFNmX5Wh2qrcU8paNc6meZdwjXkvI5vGUEUrZf61pFjn%2FbKz2S5WYfc1Gce44DrN0f0aOFpbhF2BoW95WjlWmAOhXVezc%2Fn0g8R9g5EWNckiY737%2BQeHxRDtQk2%2BrrS4t6Ngpb4kv4KG%2FUY8j4jwdlHhbV%2BLD2koMDN1PaYVZHVuOWNvmMQl4iKe2O2s2M01cV34aAe5j6tF7WGxWKwJ42iXXc0j3B2H2RVsOPbBLn7hLHaPXWbhc2y%2FSqGeOrEH0mMeiAyPtcxe30jmcpRyaPptPMTULVdZDzCUIMdc9Av%2BUiGJApyUi7FTYJYZ4YJ7MNKdGaFwzdyLw2apQlqurStI3VWKRctTrQq17jeEmTyA%2F8ZJoS61EiPdU17kp5LQjsj6cn9TVkpHMxK%2BLw0Uu2qxeNBFjNpd7cQFe1ejWSEosWI0q09guCRRrBF4ERz5JS2I9zBusS8ej5sZTy5Z5xvZ8ZVblUddPDRu775%2BvLj59O3r3X2luXyiRsq4DegU%2BySiQVW3fBBQOndfQMIOmYMgs1Aynny31vdNT6Mjsl7jI%2FZEL3HLPbNvq7su8W2f6ZQ4YK%2BY%2FVZfRsZV2x2OlsFKllpvCsl%2B1MfK7%2F5daJUjmDfVyVsnti7GpA1Y15GLG1wMG13%2Fz6%2FX7lfn%2Bs%2F7P76b3xcaRr7nwd%2ByhMxrpxO4JLYtxViKAb6jI8yDnSDcMrO1BwjqzpM65QEbMH7IuM9sl5gz2rRH8vjiC6kWxFWee5LOJ%2FmULrCYD%2BUzg2eCg4DXtcX5nnQYXLX%2BYNaQP89cNWP3Zq6ZRdFC0PmS%2Fff09NREI6fp46iJlqzBx0%2FsWy%2FBlGOOSgO8p0umcpkgeWnQSSOa4QaKqdUQpVmNMWUW%2FqVpMJHZsTonxWzbjM%2FdCpbCmFvKiMSASRz%2B6Y8Ycas%2Fmgntz4PHIo7MJ5xM0mPEbcQJ8uhSOAqqGB3eQYzmAAb4hn9IPA6o0tgUh%2FCgRgv7zScyJws8JqhJAyA6HLM%2FCQf%2FEOX5P4ZAj%2FxAZBg9ruMfxqR7UL0fB%2BWybJ5nW5hz23SgtPhyFUtPcejMiDOLcJMJ6c3oKVFzHJTMSgygHBOKkngumWA5nVlPyMYEOVFYpB74L8aZh36JsGQZMS9FD0bsW4oz8BbHSGDA4DTAGCgs5DLTj40ZdheN2XIEBgejKs%2FANYjPDGxP2tVp%2Boc8p9gAjzjD1KU8nE9EZofhuAgN6zzM6FOZCGjESuhyM%2FCfSsNZ1KMzo8H4GqszYVZcKfHABS8YHdAIiwEcA5Uz3OzTcYA8FDbxkisxmVdhmB4n1kWTW8EFIt9ASnnIb9cZa2myH52651rLYbSTuh6N6DJqsBaNLD0biYVCzs6HR0cH4jPD8BGWuJjiOYmcGbODBGhZC9QvxcvWSLVdJE%2BYXtlGmIppVfLJj63P7%2BI57Ne1eJQKRWKRoYlhe86cIeDJb8ChF5npEEdB9Tn1RlDHQf0psJykeM4X4DqoiZinViD5dXL%2Ffw61dejvyjpbY8ffyucfG22xB0r7kTmrghsDHMrAQYqkYYlBvwEpZb5dEFVVO8FoiQDCYkYjKuews5fxeG7CR56a1y60vEe51FCypg2iQn3DsQ0Oo3BEPCyHpspwbMLWMiPORHUKLxCJFtEi8S%2FcNkMBcxZwwAQVcY5SujBx7CibQAiR2NfUMLgiXKK50pqvjOTnLsgqGX7xGEWdI4kL5Mg5dyQx6xYh5cx7fJSEuIAfPgE1hdYbKGKOYFFS3ECumxDYNPuZyFVDkK4xfAWZ1YOOi6ZAz5gN01QFYkqeiknbkDqqTroeFzkrhU9FBOQHxD%2Bqh1LLwyZbhlb1Oa01WSeYjHZSllraYkUDmAwQyhW42CGjA53jczGzZejD6m2twYS4bq5pF7l0s5iQtU1dQra3s2rVAumPc%2FLFSWHuRWlhQX2TL%2FSLUbTzac1uvvJFvKq8LRnksyBAL6nLJHtv8KB2bsnpwg3m1jd0c2wpXrrWVTVWF4CsnOOWmrwWTEcoP2UtnrnGZfGE%2BlFjgjzivohbmIdEQ5H4js8LKQJnjcWzlPS5WbRhBJNS%2BCn9HDs%2BRa4rJ8b1xd%2BWsWo5LTu%2FbrvNaAatfE3y%2BEjR0OZUZC1D%2BM2nSAKhbNAna64142sV4F7VjZV0I8YqPiOr9mAesZ2eqmlDoRyUWaj7ZHJG3ZesecOahFSBcyY%2FFJSHYzl9GRqzugJOSm0BJxN9AScM3qZAJR5pA93tobiaqpWz2Lm%2BuDr1hUIT6GiYXgVHQ8gCjeNbY%2FImwscG7MVXtnupbl6S9gbPZasTKEzOTFM95YeRH8ZjmW7Mcpi8rsCKsXbPzsrU6Jg3X7eoTP9tsW5RPYsU7X4dIk3ddgqCKQAe%2F1hZBzRW%2BhkX%2FX2YZbWaV6Wrkr%2F93Fa9tVfcSWOApktesAuifoaT%2BsN0vfgIT0Rg1OxbnZWTDA4BR6Xctf1ibQ2jabQVFQ8XTuZ%2FZIq5ZsnE0gkWBwJDs1uAISyKlV%2B9IwWuiVhSkb1QMucsjGD7i3cGRcWZtUDRNFrZ2WIHr%2Bfa9nsCJn4mkbit37fksVgFtWWq4%2BRWOEjfecunwXHGeqOVUdUk0QOBebu4EuYnf7IMuTt1sAhVLFoLQtuGwmQ8n3M7iKoqeW2nb%2BBT7Eexxji0Uyg0yxG4AvPGGsy%2FHqVqUb%2B1MFULRh4KTIva%2BLBgWsqJ9di0MaIOV3WarcIw7VWXmk0jtzR4x7bWKVQ4qqwX1wKpUzeOVgjbTl6G59eSFbKhELsv9mSs62lFFqC2OENx4dHDwno569ew2Hjb7vSzY9CqRSO3Mp0qbO5eI7f3EjlKtGtWBOxudwC1CepaX7d25boiC2bkU7v55VhqSujFK1zHMsOwS4VM4Qa1XEhd%2BTk92Q%2Fd2C9FTy1WRMc2cuuj1WPsW%2Fpe38Dk2K%2BFYTS79cfRynadfXvZst0yTcVlUw4LcqVMVYcyN41WtxaI5W7YIaTae4XULjbz2QpR5mGFrOxizvQ9QEpZ9bUEla1Ot1YttntQ7TkoZaWjUnEgShuVej2grCKg3sYn3k5FHXpsqYyf6gkt9dXyaq%2FFj4Rh981U1H73m9swXpvO0fQyOZpO9y1zNJX90%2Fo13iqvobi0aGGPwqqBq7aV9ynzCzrvOHBlF9fgeQeCREGpHsVs9nJb2tVi%2BirNIjtVSbs3kDO9fciZ12tgVUSxvuhpXyoY3V39%2FDm7%2FuvnM%2FEefv9y8%2FNs%2FKhbvOpgqwBL%2BaSehGyv3c5JsnpQlK2Jb70ViNr7mc%2BhTcjuyvRVczTWJ1b3BTz9a%2B8levZ6C0aXditdWvVA6BzHcN%2BVaRDvGlCHVLPtneyg%2B2ZRMXvPs9KyUTFrd1ksNer7mpe2afLJyueSet3yyWGFG7r9fo5jdpB8sssi4Qaa8IlBhtlXTstBSgS7xix3q9etya6xcubSLrbR1pNjv5HynEzo7i5U3qqsd2uXCdvFyg8941vKVjV5E0qgb1s98naqtrtfWDUNw8pCq7MOWtqqMeWCKHckrbq380G2mvB0YLWddnHC03vAqMoa1DNJorslRmsFpXYHyP1G3KGSs5fDZK%2F7GlBWwteKbQION6ymHTLlvmWAxX77DixqcwjQKuO0OmxMI1fzuG0kbfcw01VQ57ZXWLmzqfF1MiEOQemNiEf5RW7KNm5YveiQrif9IjrprWeIP3WzeyaHLoFJci7xsWjwKceVv%2FrR9b3wO9xU%2Bw4T2Fp6vOSQNUaw9vkmm2uPDunjDL5TR4OvWAIPdtFC7aS4YNIDBwBIDRE%2BBXyDoiuMODfxvffKxvnQB7XAxh9dDC8sv%2FMaMynHN28w%2B73M7sM6CG610%2Fi7o9TGEmo35KnIyCuW1zkEKWKsodFRCI5rxPe6%2B4yfOLDek8x47SfznUXjHVzkDqXw8SRZjzsrVP6PkHVy5f8U0olitQuyDlNqf%2BeTwlrC2S2Sq1O2WmvOpzm0bQrjJRMzG%2BX2mmpPwsxWYa%2FYDPxEroiV8kiStbBaF%2F8D%3C%2Fdiagram%3E%3C%2Fmxfile%3E Here (Public Hyperlink Diagram)]

:::I will leave it here for review and if nothing happens will post it on Saturday 24th of May 2025

:::Cheeios! Guilbrynski (talk) 05:54, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

::::You'd need to crop the sources out for the article just so it fits properly. I'd say it is still not immediately clear where things are supposed to begin (maybe colours would help)? Traumnovelle (talk) 06:13, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1751090469}}

G'day,

I’m the proud owner of what I currently refer to (see chart) as a Cattle Dog of Australia — a term I use in contrast to the more formalised name Australian Cattle Dog, which, according to my ongoing research, appears to have been coined and formalised by Robert Kaleski around 1903.

Over the past month and a half, with help from my AI assistant, I’ve compiled a working genealogical chart tracing known and hypothesised breed influences, including several undocumented or lesser-discussed variants. This includes some visual reconstructions where no historical images were available.

My previous discussion thread was titled “Genealogy Breed Chart Draft”, and I’d like to thank @Traumnovelle for helping improve the early clarity of that draft. The latest version (as of 24 May 2025) is available here:

➡️ [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dKH8QcsYTxz7zhyOnDj8EbNUtZzUixfu/view?usp=sharing Current Draft]

(Note: This is still in development. If anyone prefers to print, annotate, and scan it back to me for easier feedback, that’s very welcome.)

----

Do we have any Australian source that directly compares these two branches or suggests one may have been foundational to the other?

I’ve labelled the pre-Kaleski, Bentley-era lineage as Cattle Dog of Australia in my chart. At that stage, the dogs were still regionally bred, unstandardised, and not known by the “Australian Cattle Dog” name yet. The label is intended to distinguish it from post-Dalmatian/Kelpie infusion lines promoted by the Bagust brothers.

Fair or confusing?

Elliott’s work is mentioned heavily in US sources like ACDCA.org, but he’s absent from this article. Meanwhile, Thomas Hall (well-documented in Australian literature) is omitted from that same US site entirely.

Could this reflect a storytelling bias, or is there primary source material on Elliott’s dogs in Australian archives that we’ve missed?

----

• Was there a known phenotypic variant (e.g. coat or temperament) that emerged directly following the Dalmatian infusion?
• Is there clear consensus that the Northumberland Drover imported by Hall came from England and not Scotland? (Some sources use “border regions” loosely.)
• Despite only 100 km separating Smithfield and Northumberland, accounts suggest quite distinct working types. Can anyone confirm historical differences in behaviour or morphology?

----Thank you for any insight or redirections you can offer. I believe this type of visual chart — even in draft form — could help clarify historical ambiguity for the community, and I’d love for it to become a collaborative effort.

Best regards and blessings,

Guil Guilbrynski (talk) 05:01, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:I have yet to read through all this but I removed the WP:RFC header as I don't believe you understand what an RFC is for. RFCs are used to solve long-standing disputes or make serious changes to policies that have a site-wide effect and are only used on articles as a type of last resort during content disputes, but no one has yet to disagree with anything so far, meaning an RFC is unnecessary. What you might be interested instead is trying to solicit extra feedback, the best way to do so would be through posting at WP:Wikiproject Dogs and WP:3O (third opinion). I'd also recommend avoiding AI for discussions on Wikipedia as they often don't understand a lot of Wikipedia's policies and workings and introduce extraneous markup. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:53, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::Hi Traumnovelle,

::Fair call — thanks for stepping in. I appreciate the clarification on how RfCs are intended to be used, and I can see now that I jumped the gun a bit trying to cast a wider net before there was any actual disagreement.

::You’re right — this is more a matter of presenting new material and seeking broader input, not resolving a dispute. I’ll follow your advice and put a post up at WP:WikiProject Dogs and keep WP:3O in mind if things hit a wall later on.

::Cheers again for your help — and no offence taken on the AI comment either. It’s helped me structure my research and draft visuals, but I fully get that it can bungle Wikipedia-specific stuff if left unchecked.

::All the best,

::Guil Guilbrynski (talk) 07:57, 25 May 2025 (UTC)