Talk:Biblical canon#RfC on article scope

This essay relies heavily on a single, questionable source. A number factual errors—“the Samaritan alphabet,” there is no such thing. The pre-exilic, Phoenician alphabet was a shared script among the residents of Syria-Palestine. Article is skewed and inaccurate in many places. The author cites the Anchor Bible Dictionary (a multi-volume source) without naming author or article. 2600:8802:5501:47E0:6D72:59F8:286B:194 (talk) 17:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

The chart of the Old Testament contains a large number of errors. This is especially true in the Eastern Orthodox Churches and Oriental Orthodox Churches.

1. "Prayer of Manasseh". The prayer of Manasseh is not included in the Greek{{Cite web|access-date=2025-03-23|title=Αποστολική Διακονία της Εκκλησίας της Ελλάδος|url=https://apostoliki-diakonia.gr/bible/bible.asp?contents=old_testament/contents.asp&main=OldTes|website=apostoliki-diakonia.gr}} Bible in any form. The Book of Odes is not part of the canon of the Bible of any of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. In the Russian{{Cite web|access-date=2025-03-23|title=Официальный сайт Русской Православной Церкви / Патриархия.ru|url=https://www.patriarchia.ru/bible/para2/36|website=www.patriarchia.ru}}{{Cite web |title=2-я книга Паралипоменон (Хроник), глава 36 (2Пар.36) на церковнославянском языке - Ветхий Завет - Церковнославянский (utfcs) перевод Библии |url=https://azbyka.ru/biblia/?2Chron.36&utfcs |access-date=2025-03-23 |website=Азбука веры |lang=cu}} and Georgian{{Cite web |title=† orthodoxy.ge † ძველი აღთქმა - მეორე ნეშტთა (თავი 36) |url=https://www.orthodoxy.ge/tserili/biblia/2neshtta/2neshtta-36.htm |access-date=2025-03-23 |website=www.orthodoxy.ge}} Orthodox Bibles, the "Prayer of Manasseh" is placed in the book of 2 Chronicles at the end of chapter 36. The Prayer of Manasseh is not part of the canon of the Armenian{{Cite web |title=ԱՍՏՈՒԱԾԱՇՈՒՆՉ |url=https://www.qahana.am/bible/index.html |access-date=2025-03-06 |website=www.qahana.am}} Bible, the Coptic{{Cite web|access-date=2025-03-23|title=الكتاب المقدس للتحميل Pdf (حمل الإنجيل كاملا): تحميل العهد القديم والعهد الجديد و الأسفار القانونية الثانية Arabic Bible|url=https://st-takla.org/Bibles/Download-Arabic-Bible-pdf.html|website=St-Takla.org}} Bible, and the Syriac{{Cite web|url=https://vishudhagrandham.com/|title=Vishudha Grandham|lang=en|website=Syriac Pashito Malayalam Translation|access-date=2025-03-06}} Jacobite Bible.

2. "1 Esdras (3 Ezra)" is included in the Armenian Bible like all other Deuterocanonical books without designation "extra-canonical".

3. "2 Esdras 3–14 (4 Ezra or Apocalypsis of Esdras) is not a part of the Bible of the Armenian Apostolic Church.

4. "Additions to Esther" are not included in the Georgian{{Cite web|url=https://www.orthodoxy.ge/tserili/biblia/sarchevi.htm|title=† orthodoxy.ge † ძველი აღთქმა|website=www.orthodoxy.ge|access-date=2025-03-11}} Orthodox Bible.

5. "3 Maccabees" is included in the Armenian Bible like all other Deuterocanonical books without designation "extra-canonical".

6. "4 Maccabees" has never been included in the Church Slavonic{{Cite web|url=https://azbyka.ru/biblia/?utfcs|title=БИБЛИЯ онлайн {{!}} Читать, скачать Новый Завет, Ветхий Завет - Церковнославянский (utfcs) перевод|lang=cu|website=Азбука веры|access-date=2025-03-07}} and Russian{{Cite web|access-date=2025-03-23|title=Официальный сайт Русской Православной Церкви / Патриархия.ru|url=https://www.patriarchia.ru/bible/mf/1|website=www.patriarchia.ru}} Bibles. The Slavic and Russian Bibles do not have an "Appendix" section as such. In the Georgian{{Cite web|url=https://www.orthodoxy.ge/tserili/biblia/sarchevi.htm|title=† orthodoxy.ge † ძველი აღთქმა|website=www.orthodoxy.ge|access-date=2025-03-11}} Bible, this book is signed as "non-canonical" along with the other 11 Deuterocanonical books (1 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Letter of Jeremiah, Baruch, 2 Esdras). On Serbian Orthodox websites{{Cite web|access-date=2025-03-23|title=Православна Србија|url=https://www.pravoslavna-srbija.com/sveto-pismo-biblija/spc/|website=www.pravoslavna-srbija.com}}{{Cite web|access-date=2025-03-23|title=Девтероканонске књиге - Православље на мрежи - Библиотека одабраних текстова|url=https://www.pravoslavlje.net/index.php?title=%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B5_%D0%BA%D1%9A%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B5|website=www.pravoslavlje.net}}, "4 Maccabees" is sometimes listed as a Deuterocanonical book. In some printed editions{{Cite web|url=https://www.bibleinmylanguage.com/serbian-orthodox-family-bible-large-black-hardcover-sveto-pismo-biblija-deuterocanonical/|title=Serbian Orthodox Family Bible / Large Black Hardcover / Sveto Pismo BIBLIJA Deuterocanonical|lang=en|website=Bible in My Language|access-date=2025-03-23}} of the Serbian Orthodox Bible, this book is also placed in the Old Testament along with other books (not in the appendix, as in the Greek Bible).

7. "Job". The Greek{{Cite web|access-date=2025-03-23|title=Αποστολική Διακονία της Εκκλησίας της Ελλάδος|url=https://apostoliki-diakonia.gr/bible/bible.asp?contents=old_testament/contents_Iov.asp&main=iov&file=25.42.htm|website=apostoliki-diakonia.gr}}, Church Slavonic{{Cite web|access-date=2025-03-23|lang=cu|title=Книга Иова, глава 42 (Иов.42) на церковнославянском языке - Ветхий Завет - Церковнославянский (utfcs) перевод Библии|url=https://azbyka.ru/biblia/?Job.42&utfcs|website=Азбука веры}}, Armenian{{Cite web|access-date=2025-03-23|title=ԱՍՏՈՒԱԾԱՇՈՒՆՉ|url=https://www.qahana.am/bible/OldTestament/Job.html|website=www.qahana.am}}, and Ethiopian{{Cite web|url=https://www.bible.com/versions/3200-%E1%8A%A0%E1%88%9B2000-%E1%8B%A8%E1%8A%A0%E1%88%9B%E1%88%AD%E1%8A%9B-%E1%88%98%E1%8C%BD%E1%88%90%E1%8D%8D-%E1%89%85%E1%8B%B1%E1%88%B5-%E1%88%B0%E1%88%9B%E1%8A%95%E1%8B%AB-%E1%8A%A0%E1%88%83%E1%8B%B1|title=የአማርኛ መጽሐፍ ቅዱስ (ሰማንያ አሃዱ)}} Bibles include "Additions to Job" (additional text at the end of 42 chapters; longer than 151 psalms). There is no information about this in the chart.

8. "Psalm 151" is not included in the Bible of the non-Chalcedonian Syrian Churches (Jacobite Syrian and Malankara).

9. "Letter of Jeremiah" is not part of the Armenian Apostolic Church's Bible.

10. "Letter of Baruch". The modern Syriac Bibles include only the passage "Letter of Baruch" from the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch (chapters 78-86) and it is called "1 Baruch". At the same time, the Book of Baruch calls it "2 Baruch."

Olympius78 (talk) 13:31, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

{{reflist talk}}

Current lead: "A biblical canon is a set of texts (also called "books") which a particular Jewish or Christian religious community regards as part of the Bible."

Samaritanism is also mentioned in the article, and at least according to WP, it's a separate religion, though small atm. Should it be mentioned in the lead, or does it fail WP:PROPORTION there? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:29, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

I tried to add it a few days ago, but it was taken away. A Coptic Priest explaining his churches canon in a youtube video and a church diocese-made Coptic Bible app both include it, notably as the only difference (along with Psalm 151) that's different to the Catholic Canon - besides these two works which the Copts have the exact same canon as the Catholic Church. The current link to a source for the Coptic Canon [97] doesn't include Prayer of Manasseh but I assume due to the evidence above that it simply wasn't mentioned as it's a small extra chapter that they might have thought was just a part of 2 Chronicles when they made that list. ScottNally (talk) 23:42, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:You need a WP:RS for this, not a Youtube video. Veverve (talk) 08:14, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::Why would a actual Copic Priest, in a video where he's specifically explaining the differences between his Church's Canon and other canon's, not be a reliable source? Also under version 2.29 of the Coptic Reader App of the Coptic Orthodox Chuurch of the Southern United States [a official Captic Orthodox Dioscese] says "NEW CONTENT: Added Prayer of Manasseh to the Holy Bible." https://wiki.suscopts.org/Coptic_Reader. In the app itself the only difference with the Catholic Canon is the addition of Psalm 151 and the Prayer of Manasseh, as I've described, but idk how to express that in a website link lol as it's a mobile app enit. ScottNally (talk) 10:26, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:::https://wiki.suscopts.org/Main_Page is a wiki, see WP:USERG, that doesn't help your case. Is this [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Indianapolis_Museum_of_Art_Oldfields_building.JPG#Licensing] the video in question? It's published by something called "Apocrypha Apocalypse", which says it's website is http://www.handsonapologetics.com/. This appears to obviously fail WP:SPS, see also WP:RSPYT.

:::This doesn't at all mean your source is wrong, but it's the kind of YT-video that are mostly not good enough for WP-sourcing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:52, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Fwiw, afaict [https://suscopts.org/diocese/diocese-apps/ Coptic reader] is provided by Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States, but what that means in WP:RS-terms, I can't say. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:04, 10 May 2025 (UTC)