Talk:Bini (group)/Archive 1#LionhearTV as a reliable source

:The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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|type = move

|text = It was proposed in this section that multiple pages be renamed and moved.

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The suggested moves are opposed by experienced editors with cogent arguments. Those arguing for these moves based their views mostly on pageviews, it seems, sidestepping content arguments and other ways to determine a primary topic. "Trainwreck" is perhaps too strong a word, but as {{U|Joy}}, {{U|Howard the Duck}}, and others argue, there is also a question of recentism here. In other words, not moved. Drmies (talk) 16:14, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

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• :Bini (group) → {{no redirect|Bini}}
• :Bini → {{no redirect|Bini (disambiguation)}}
• :Gwen (singer) → {{no redirect|Gwen}}
• :Gwen → {{no redirect|Gwen (disambiguation)}}
• :Mikha (singer) → {{no redirect|Mikha}}

– This following requested move pertains to a member of the Filipino girl group Bini (group). I believe that all these requested moves are passed on WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Please read the following explanations:

• Bini (group)
• Bini are passed on PRIMARYTOPIC because, the pageviews from January 1, 2024 until yesterday (January 28, 2025) nearly [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=1&start=2024-01-01&end=2025-01-28&pages=Bini_(group) 1.2 Million pageviews].

• Gwen (singer)
• Gwen is a member of Bini and she's have [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=1&start=2024-01-01&end=2025-01-28&pages=Gwen_(singer) 54, 140 pageviews].

• Mikha (singer)
• Mikha was also a member of Bini, she's have [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=1&start=2024-01-01&end=2025-01-28&pages=Mikha_(singer) 110, 715 pageviews] since the creation of the article. Not to be confused on Mika (singer).

• Maloi (singer)
• Maloi was also a memeber of Bini, her article have [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=1&start=2024-01-01&end=2025-01-28&pages=Maloi_(singer) 84, 562 pageviews] since the creation of the article. ROY is WAR Talk! 02:42, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

:Note: WikiProject Women in Music, WikiProject Southeast Asia, WikiProject Asia, WikiProject Pop music, Tambayan Philippines, WikiProject Musicians, and WikiProject Biography have been notified of this discussion. ROY is WAR Talk! 02:48, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

::Note: the :Maloi (singer) → {{no redirect|Maloi}} proposal had to be removed from this request because it conflicted with a proposal at Talk:Maloi (singer). P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 13:48, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support Bini related moves and Maloi per notability. As for the members I am uncertain given commonality. Borgenland (talk) 04:14, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose Gwen for the singer. The purpose of pageviews is to see how it compares with the other listings, and [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=1&range=all-time&pages=Gwen_(singer)|Gwen|Gwen_(film)|Tropical_Storm_Gwen, looking at more articles] and all time, instead of just the last year, this singer doesn't appear to be the primary topic. I would honestly suggest moving her to Gwen (Filipino singer) seeing as most people would probably thinking of Gwen Stefani as a more prominent singer with the name Gwen [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=1&range=all-time&pages=Gwen_(singer)|Gwen_Stefani].

:Support moving the group to Bini as [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=1&range=all-time&pages=Bini_(group)|Bini|Bini_(grape)|Bini_(surname)|Bini,_Burkina_Faso, all time page views for them] is clear enough. Also Support moves for Mikha and Maloi; Mihka redirects to Micah where there is no one (not even this person) listed there under the name, and there is no article for anything else under Maloi so I'd be happy for her to take that article space. orangesclub 🍊 03:56, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

• I have decided to retract my support for Mikha, as honestly I don't think she (and most of these women) meet WP:BANDMEMBER and I expect conversations on that to come soon. Still support the Bini move, but none others. orangesclub 🍊 22:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
• :FWIW, I've put all members of the group up for WP:PROD late last year but was swiftly removed by the people who initiated this discussion. All members use the same references and made it appear that the members participated in activities on their own when a closer look at the sources show that they performed as a group (LOL). The only "unique" activities was maybe if someone was missing due to sickness or something else. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:21, 9 February 2025 (UTC)
• ::Seriously? I'm really surprised that each members has already have their individual page when most of their citations are only passing mention, it really failed both WP:GNG and WP:SINGER. The members' pages should be nominate at WP:AfD. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 02:35, 9 February 2025 (UTC)
• :::@D.18th We already explained on the objection of the individual members as a standalone article.
• :::* Aiah - Objection of Proposed Deletion
• :::There is also have a WP:SIGCOV on the individual members like Billboard Philippines, Nylon Manila, Vogue Philippines, GMA News and ABS-CBN News (primary source).
• :::On Mal oi, she appeared on the music video Dilaw (Yellow) by Maki. She is also have an solo magazine on Metro Magazine Philippines and the original Billboard as well as the rest of the others group too. ROY is WAR Talk! 03:01, 9 February 2025 (UTC)
• ::::"She is also have an solo magazine on Metro Magazine Philippines". I can't understand this, and my apologies to foreigners if they can't as well (LOL).
• ::::You mean to she appeared on a magazine cover by herself? Is that right? And that's your basis why she passes WP:GNG? Howard the Duck (talk) 05:13, 9 February 2025 (UTC)
• ::I did see those, I think if we have a deletion discussion in line of WP:AFD where it can't just be removed, we'll probably get less biased interpretations of WP:GNG than what has been cited thus far. Honestly, Gwen literally only has a Big Brother credit and a non-charting soundtrack song to her name. I'm not super familiar with the process myself but the way I see it, it's pointless moving these people to the primary topics when it is likely they'll be deleted/redirected to Bini in the end anyway. orangesclub 🍊 05:43, 9 February 2025 (UTC)
• :::TBH none of the article names are suitable redirects. If these are to be sent for deletion, redirects should be out of the question, restoring the alternate spellings like Jhoanna and Aiah to the articles about the given names. Howard the Duck (talk) 07:32, 9 February 2025 (UTC)
• ::::Oh I agree, which is why I don't really want Mikha (singer) to become Mikha, for the article to be deleted and the redirect becoming Mikha > Bini (because of this RM) instead of what should be Mikha (singer) > Bini and leaving it as Mikha > Micah. WP:APOS says to not list people without articles on lists for names, so it feels ridiculous for us to end up with a non-notable person taking up the redirect. Not sure this makes sense but either way I'm very sure you and I are on the same page on this. orangesclub 🍊 07:56, 9 February 2025 (UTC)

• Support Bini as the primary topic. Support Mikha, Maloi; unambiguous. Oppose Gwen, who is not the primary topic. 162 etc. (talk) 04:28, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support for Bini (indeed a WP:PTOPIC). Maloi, and Mikha (unambiguous) while oppose for Gwen as per above. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 05:36, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support for Bini, Maloi, and Mikha. Oppose for Gwen. All are per above. AstrooKai (Talk) 06:03, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose moving Gwen, the others seem to have no other significant competition for primary topic. older ≠ wiser 12:13, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

• This sounds like peak WP:Recentism, but I don't want to be entirely prejudiced against it. Per WP:DPT, let's have a look at some stats.

: [https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Bini WikiNav for Bini] does show a large amount of interest. At the same time, it's not necessarily clear what the long-term significance situation is. [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=all-time&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bini All-time mass views for the base title] and [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=all-time&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bini for the surname] doesn't show a lot of reader interest in the other topics. It seems to be a fairly common Italian surname, and the Nigerian people are fairly prominent as well, though it's not clear how common the specific moniker Bini for the Edo really is. It would definitely improve the efficiency of navigation for these fans if we moved this, but I'm not sure if this would give the wrong impression to the average reader that this is a worldwide definition of what "Bini" primarily is. It's hard to be particularly bothered by the idea of inconveniencing hundreds of fans a month - they know what they're after, it's not actually hard for them to pick out their favorite item out of a short list.

: With regard to Gwen, [https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Gwen WikiNav for Gwen] and [https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Gwen_%28given_name%29 for the given name] actually show more people are being detected manually navigating to unlinked Gwen Stefani than there are looking for this other person, let alone all the other traffic there. This proposal is just plain nonsense.

: I don't have time right now to go over the rest, but I'm guessing there's also marginal value in doing this. It's safe to say that the long-term significance aspect of WP:PTOPIC wasn't considered here, and we're instead looking at the encyclopedia more from a fan point of view, which is misguided. (Oppose) --Joy (talk) 15:06, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

::I check on Wikinav of Bini, however, it seems the cover on Bini is "other empty" which is a questionable. I believe that this is will be Primary topic because of consistent and most searchable here on Wikipedia of searching "Bini". In Wikinav of Bini, it is obviously receives engagement other topics titled Bini. The Edo people that referred to as Bini are notable, though usage of this term as their primary identifier appears limited in modern contexts. Given the sustained interest and the lack of a clear alternative primary topic. A hatnote can ensure other meaning easily accessible. A redirect a Bini from Help:Disambiguation is a questionable too.

::On Gwen, I would agree that it doesn't need to move because of confusion. ROY is WAR Talk! 15:13, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

:::Just because there's a lack of a clear alternative primary topic, that doesn't mean we have to pick one. That's why the guideline asks - WP:D#Is there a primary topic? There have been many other cases where there's a pop-culture topic with significant readership, but we don't choose a primary topic. --Joy (talk) 16:08, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

::::I check carefully the Wikinav of Bini, I still don't understand on what's the "other empty" that using on the titled, "Bini". The disambiguation are automatically added as a wikilink on current Bini now, just like [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=all-time&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_(disambiguation) this on Apple (disambiguation)] and this on [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=all-time&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWE_Hall_of_Fame_(disambiguation) WWE Hall of Fame (disambiguation)]. The thing is still a considered as a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to move "Bini (group)" to "Bini" and still a mystery for "other empty". ROY is WAR Talk! 13:52, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

:::::The same other-empty category appears elsewhere, it refers to traffic for which there is no HTTP Referer header sent by the clients. I don't understand what you mean by the rest of that paragraph.

:::::Either way, I still don't see the real benefit to changing this, no further argument has been made that would prove that this is necessary recentism.

:::::On related note, after you've done that [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bini_(group)&oldid=1273235940 "procedural close"], I don't think there's much sense in continuing to discuss this, because that was gross violation of WP:Gaming the system. --Joy (talk) 11:26, 9 February 2025 (UTC)

::::::I already admitted on WP:ANI when I raised my concern that Howard accusations to me on Paid Editing. I'll leave it up to the WP:SYSOP since it was my mistake and a WP:AGF. ROY is WAR Talk! 12:13, 9 February 2025 (UTC)

• Are we really to believe that a a Filipino girl group known almost primarily in the Philippines is primary topic over a village in Burkina Faso, a language and a whole goddamned the ethnic group? Really?

:"Jhoanna", an alternate spelling of Joanna (given name), changed its subject since one of the members of Bini is named "Jhoanna". As per WP:POFR, that should not have been the case, but I was outvoted by Bini fans and their WP:PRIMARYTOPIC argument that people fell in line for. Now, "Mikha" is an alternate spelling of "Micah", and again, just like on the ill-fated RM that totally disregarded WP:POFR, it has to give way to a member of this girl group.

:Gwen has been opposed by pretty much everybody here save for the Bini fans, I won't have to elaborate on that.

:There's also a separate an ongoing RM for Maloi at Talk:Maloi (singer)#Requested move 27 January 2025 that people on this RM should know about. I don't think her "Maloi" (which came from "Mary Loi") is an alternate spelling of "Maloy", however Maloi can either be clan of an ethnic group or a village. A whole goddamned village.

:WP:AGF and all, but there's something nefarious about these RMs. {{u|Royiswariii}} User talk:Wikishovel#Conflict on "Jhoanna" and "Joanna" asked {{u|Wikishovel}} about the Jhoanna RM, arguing "it can be confusion on Google algorithms too especially there is a Google Knowledge Panel for Jhoanna Robles". Are you guys being paid? If not, ABS-CBN should pay you guys; work is not free. Also, how can we trust you guys you'd follow WP:NPOV? Google Knowledge Panels are absolutely none of our business, and we should name articles based on third party websites.

:As this stands, oppose all as proposed as per my explanation and as per {{u|Joy}}, support these moves:

:* Bini (group) stays there.

:* Gwen (singer) move to Gwen Apuli or "Bini Gwen" (this is the appellative Bini members go by these days, "Bini" ". Imagine "Blackpink Lisa"), or "Gwen (Filipino singer)".

:* Mikha (singer) move to Mikha Lim or "Bini Mikha".

: I'd comment about this on the Maloi RM, and while we cannot overtturn Jhoanna, or advocate reopening, I'd support for a similar naming convention for her in the future. Howard the Duck (talk) 23:49, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

::Hi Howard!

::Thanks for your input on this RM and for bringing up some points. However, I don’t think it’s necessary to say:

::{{bq|Are you guys being paid? If not, ABS-CBN should pay you guys; work is not free. Also, how can we trust you guys you'd follow WP:NPOV?}}

::While you mentioned "WP:AGF and all", this kind of statement really questions the good faith of those involved in the discussion, including myself. Accusing people of paid editing and doubting their neutrality without evidence doesn’t help the conversation. It's leaning toward WP:ASPERSIONS. If there are concerns about neutrality, it would be more helpful to point to specific sources or policy issues rather than casting doubt in a general way.

::Just to clarify, we're not paid editors. Yes, our contributions may focus more on Bini-related articles, but that doesn't mean we're getting paid. We simply have a greater interest in this area as we support Bini by contributing here on Wikipedia, all while acting in accordance with the guidelines. This is known as WP:STEWARDSHIP, and it does not violate any guidelines or policies here on Wikipedia.

::Lastly, I’d really appreciate it if you could tone it down a bit. Let’s try to keep things respectful so we can have a better dialogue. AstrooKai (Talk) 13:42, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

::Hi {{u|Howard the Duck|Howard}}!
First of all, I am not paid editor. Your accusations are not Good Faith and obviously WP:ASPERSIONS. Your vote might or might not consider this due to this accusations, but let's not talk about that. (I'll leave to page movers if will consider your vote with explanation and will be the result of this RM.){{quote|Now, "Mikha" is an alternate spelling of "Micah", and again, just like on the ill-fated RM that totally disregarded WP:POFR, it has to give way to a member of this girl group.}}If you see my evidences, it is obviously PRIMARYTOPIC, it will need a consensus again if you really want to move Mikha to Micah which is a given name and per Orangeclub "where there is no one (not even this person) listed there under the name."{{quote|Gwen (singer) move to Gwen Apuli or "Bini Gwen" (this is the appellative Bini members go by these days, "Bini" ". Imagine "Blackpink Lisa"), or "Gwen (Filipino singer)". }}

::*Agree that Gwen for Gwen (Filipino singer) But to Bini Gwen, technically no 'cause I did it on Maloi which is Maloi (Bini) 'cause it's *inappropriate and don't know what type is she.

::*On Mikha, I already created a redirect for Mikha Lim, to Bini Mikha it's just my explanation per Maloi. To "Blackpink Lisa" that you examplez I strongly disagree per WP:COMMONAME. I already explained my argument to Joy so you can check it out.

::ROY is WAR Talk! 15:40, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

: (Apparently, the stricken words offended someone; obviously, it was not a personal attack as it was never directed to any specific person, real or imagined, from within or without this discussion, but I have stricken it nonetheless. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:49, 30 January 2025 (UTC))

• Procedural close. Sounds like a trainwreck to me. HueMan1 (talk) 16:50, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose all ScarletViolet 13:14, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
• :Because? Please read WP:ATADP#Arguments without arguments. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 14:47, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
• :Can you elaborate why did you oppose? It seems you don't have reason why did you oppose all of my nomination, this might be not considering your vote, please read WP:ATADP#Arguments without arguments. ROY is WAR Talk! 12:16, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
• Urgent notice: The initiator of this WP:RM, {{u|Royiswariii}}, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bini_(group)&oldid=1273235940 unilaterally closed this RM] despite this not qualifying for early closure (WP:RMEC), and most importantly, having conflict of interest in this said RM (WP:RMCLOSE#Conflicts of interest). Such appalling behavior! Good thing [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bini_(group)&oldid=1273244164 it was reverted] by {{u|Paper9oll}}, who then cleaned stuff up on the discussed articles to prevent further action by bots. Perhaps a topic ban is in order? LOL this is madness. Any further edits such as this would be reported to the appropriate drama board. Howard the Duck (talk) 20:36, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
• :You can report it if you want. Howard the Duck ROY is WAR Talk! 22:31, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
• ::Absolutely no remorse. Howard the Duck (talk) 22:40, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Mikha. Mikha is an alternate transliteration of Micah ({{langx|he|מִיכָה|translit=Mikhah}}); It should either be a DAB page or a redirect to Micah. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:00, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
• :However, there is no competition of "Mikha". Just like what did on Jhoanna, just put a hatnote for similar name. I suggest to redirect Mikha (name) → Micah and add a redirect category shell of {{R from alternative spelling}}. 'Cause Mikha are no competition title except if the alt spelling of Micah. However, in my opinion, it seems not inappropriate 'cause it is Mikha and will change to Micah. It can be little confusion because of Philippine English, it maybe on Default English which is American English are Mee-kuh or My-kuh, On Philippine English, the pronunciation is Mee-kah. But, if you want to DAB the Mikha or redirect to Micah, technically no per WP:COMMONAMES. I do not recommend too to change the title to Bini Mikha, it will looks like a Fandom site or being WP:FANCRUFT. I mean, why will redirect to a less notability than to a more notability just because it is an alternative spelling? ROY is WAR Talk! 15:59, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
• ::I do considerate to redirect Bini Mikha → Mikha (singer) since it was a stage name. It can be added as {{R from stage name}}. And I think it is a unambiguous and there is not competition about "Mikha".ROY is WAR Talk! 16:04, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose Gwen. Clearly not the primary topic. Neutral on the others. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:21, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
• :Thank you. I doubt on Gwen, so, I accept that she will not move. ROY is WAR Talk! 16:00, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

:Notice on a parallel RM. Those who oppose the move of the members listed on this RM should also participate in Talk:Maloi (singer)#Requested move 27 January 2025 if they'd support or oppose moving that article as well. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:30, 9 February 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose as to all due to WP:RECENTISM. The novelty of a currently popular group may not prove sustainable in the long term. We should wait a few years and see how this develops. BD2412 T 20:42, 9 February 2025 (UTC)