Talk:Camila Cabello#Nationality context in lead

This should be added to early life, she wasn't able to see her father much for a couple of years, source: Variety, Much, Miami, The New York Times, Popsugar, NPR, Billboard, TIME and Entertainment

Hello i am writting here to expose a lier and to beg for the edit to be fair this time.

The lier part:

He lied saying that he will change something while till this day its still the same as it was before or at the time of the request.

File:ProofAboutEditAndFaleAgreement.png

Also here is the current post aka the current Camila Cabello wikipedia page:

File:Proof2AboutBigConspiracyInAttemptToCatchTheCriminal.png

About Shawn Mendes and Camila Cabello relationship i've got some new info that i've got from videos on youtube such as Shawn Mendes Q&A meetings and camila's interviews in the UK also from numerous other sources like HollyWoodLife youtube channel and TMZ reports youtube channel. Also they confirmed their relationship.

Sources:

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/celebs/a28835178/camila-cabello-and-shawn-mendess-vma-body-language-analysis/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC8kcbaSvYU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3utJwTt3kE

Also in conclusion i would like to say thank you for reading this.

Best Regards,

WorldWidePressNo1

I noticed that the categories related to Cabello’s Mexican identity, some such as :Category:Mexican women singers and :Category:21st-century Mexican singers, were removed citing WP:CATVER. However I believe these categories are fully supported by the current article content and verifiable sources, the article explicitly states that Camila Cabello holds Mexican citizenship and that she identifies herself as Cuban and Mexican, these claims are backed by reliable sources already cited in the article. Therefore under WP:CATVER the inclusion of these categories is justified as they are not inferred but directly supported by the article text.

Per WP:CATVER:

"Categorizations should appear only if they are supported by the article’s contents."

Since the article includes verifiable content stating that she is both Cuban and Mexican (not merely by descent but by nationality and self identification) it is appropriate to classify her as a Mexican singer within the given categories.

I intend to re-add the categories unless there’s a policy based objection (Not one based on personal opinions or actions by users who revert editions without even reading the article and its sources.)

Thanks! RixToken2007 (talk) 05:44, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:She is stated to be an American singer in the lead based on doing all her notable work in the US, she has done no notable work in Mexico or Cuba to support being either a Mexican or Cuban singer. See WP:NOTDEFINING as well. Saying she is a Mexican singer in the categories when the article itself doesn't say that means the category is unsupported. There was a full discussion on this issue in the previous section. You made a bold change, it was reverted with reasons, you started a discussion. Gain consensus if you want to move from WP:STATUSQUO. Geraldo Perez (talk) 05:56, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::@Geraldo Perez In relation to the statement that "she has done nothing in Mexico or Cuba" I believe this argument has no basis within Wikipedia's guidelines, especially regarding categorization by nationality. According to WP:CATVER, categories should be based on defining characteristics of the subject, and not necessarily whether that person has worked or made a significant impact in a particular country, in this case, Camila Cabello holds Mexican citizenship-nationality, which is supported by reliable sources in the article. A person's nationality as in this case, is a defining characteristic and should be sufficient to include her in the relevant categories, as established in WP:NOTDEFINING. Additionally the article does not state that Camila [is a Mexican (on lead)] or that her primary career has taken place in Mexico, but this does not mean that she should not be categorized as a Mexican singer if her nationality is clearly established and relevant to her identity. As stated in WP:NOTDEFINING, a defining characteristic is one that is commonly referenced and supported by reliable sources. I also want to point out that categorizing Camila as a Mexican singer does not depend on whether her career has developed in Mexico, but rather on her nationality, so excluding these categories simply because her career has had more prominence in the United States is inconsistent with Wikipedia's policies on categorization.

::Finally, the argument that Camila should not be included in categories such as "Mexican women singers" because her career has not had an impact in Mexico seems to be an incorrect interpretation of the policy. Nationality is not conditioned by professional activity within a country, but by official documents identifying it, as is the case with CAMILA, this does not affect her inclusion in categories such as "Mexican women singers" or similar ones. RixToken2007 (talk) 06:20, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:I’d also like to address the recent edit summary: "See talk page – not a Mexican singer, has done nothing in Mexico." With respect, that argument has no basis in Wikipedia’s categorization policies, the guideline WP:CATVER and related pages do not require a person to have worked or done something in a country in order to be placed in a nationality-based category. What matters is whether the person has that nationality and whether that fact is clearly stated and sourced in the article.

:The article already establishes that Camila Cabello olds Mexican citizenship, and self-identifies as Cuban and Mexican,

:with reliable sources supporting both statements. Therefore, the criteria for nationality-based categories like :Category:Mexican women singers, :Category:Cuban women singers,

::Category:English-language singers from Mexico, :Category:21st-century Mexican women singers, :Category:21st-century Mexican singers are fully met.

:Saying she is “not a Mexican singer” because she hasn't worked in Mexico is incorrect and it seems that @Geraldo Perez confuses “Mexican singer” (i.e. nationality) with “Mexico-based singer” (i.e. career location), a distinction that is not supported by any policy. Also, referring us to the article’s talk page, where there's an older discussion about whether to add “Cuban and Mexican” to the lead, is not relevant here, that conversation is about the lead wording, not the categories, and they are governed by different guidelines.

:Again, unless there's a clear policy-based objection I think the inclusion of these categories is justified and should remain. RixToken2007 (talk) 06:03, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::Categories follow what is in the article and should have support in the lead to be considered WP:DEFINING. Mexican singers are singers with a strong connection to Mexico and a notable career in Mexico, that is the major factor for the classification as such, not just Mexican citizenship and being a singer somewhere else. The relevant policy is form a consensus, see WP:CONCENSUS. Geraldo Perez (talk) 06:21, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:::@Geraldo Perez I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. Let me address your points one by one:

:::"Categories follow what is in the article and should have support in the lead to be considered WP:DEFINING."

:::This is a misreading of WP:DEFINING. The guideline does not say that categories must be explicitly stated in the lead to be valid. What it says is that categories should be based on defining characteristics that are supported by reliable sources and that could reasonably be mentioned in the lead. Camila Cabello’s Mexican citizenship and self-identification as Mexican are both sourced in the article and are defining characteristics under WP:DEFINING and WP:CATVER. The lead does not have to contain every defining trait for the related categories to be valid, and in fact many articles have categories not reflected verbatim in the lead.

:::"Mexican singers are singers with a strong connection to Mexico and a notable career in Mexico; that is the major factor for the classification as such, not just Mexican citizenship and being a singer somewhere else."

:::This is your personal interpretation, but it’s not supported by any Wikipedia policy. Nationality-based categories — such as :Category:Mexican women singers — are based on whether the person is Mexican, not whether their career occurred in Mexico. You're conflating nationality with musical genre or geographic base of activity. Under your logic, Rocío Dúrcal, who was Spanish but had a notable music career in Mexico and sang Mexican music, would be classified as a Mexican singer, which clearly wouldn’t be accurate by nationality standards.

:::Also, your logic would invalidate the presence of categories like Category:Barbadian women singers on Rihanna, or Category:21st-century Trinidad and Tobago women singers on Nicki Minaj, both of whom hold those nationalities but built their careers elsewhere. The presence of those categories is not questioned because nationality, not location of musical activity, is the defining trait used in such categories, so, it's the same thing that should be applied with Camila.

:::"The relevant policy is form a consensus, see WP:CONCENSUS."

:::Consensus is important, but it must be based on policy, not on a misapplication of it. If a category inclusion is supported by policy and verifiable sources (as in this case) then reverting without a clear, policy based reason is not a valid way to maintain the status quo. I am open to discussion and consensus building but the objection you’re raising is not consistent with existing categorization policy.

:::To reiterate, Camila Cabello is a singer, and she holds Mexican citizenship and identifies as Mexican (and Cuban). These are reliably sourced, and thus meet the bar for inclusion in in the categories that I already mentioned. Until there’s a policy based objection or a clear consensus reached through proper discussion (not continued reversions) I believe the categories should remain. RixToken2007 (talk) 06:50, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::::MOS:CONTEXTBIO gives guidance as to what goes in the lead. Her Mexican nationality is not relevant to her notability thus is why not classified in the lead as a "Mexican singer". As for policy, there is no policy that requires those combination categories to be added to the article, so demanding a policy reference for removal is also not required. This is a content dispute to be resolved with discussion. You wish to add categories that are not directly stated in the article. I disagree mostly because it isn't directly stated, isn't in the lead, and is not defining. There is a current category :Category:American musicians of Mexican descent which is more appropriate, :Category:Hispanic and Latino American women singers is also currently in the article and seems more relevant and inclusive of her Cuban ancestry as well. Geraldo Perez (talk) 07:18, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Another guideline that applies is WP:OVERCAT - "Do not create categories for every single verifiable fact in articles. This only makes the category system more crowded and less easy to navigate." I think the article already has more categories than necessary and it could do with a careful purge of some of the existing ones. Geraldo Perez (talk) 08:02, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::@Geraldo Perez Thank you for the reply. I'd like to clarify a few things regarding the categories under discussion.

:::::First, your assertion that “Mexican nationality is not relevant to her notability” misunderstands the purpose of nationality-based categories. Categories like Category:Mexican women singers or Category:Cuban women singers are not based on career location or genre, but on nationality, as long as it is clearly stated and sourced in the article (as supported by WP:CATVER and WP:DEFINING). Camila Cabello holds both Mexican and Cuban citizenships, which is mentioned in the article and supported by reliable sources. Therefore, placing her in both nationality based categories is consistent with Wikipedia guidelines.

:::::As for Category:American musicians of Mexican descent, that is inaccurate in her case. You're conflating ancestry with nationality. That category is meant for people who are American by nationality and have Mexican ancestry, not Mexican nationality (Becky G, Selena Gomez, 6ix9ine). Cabello is Mexican, not just of Mexican descent, including that category misleads readers into thinking she’s not a Mexican national, which contradicts the article.

:::::And to your repeated invocation of WP:OVERCAT, the categories I added are neither trivial nor excessive, they reflect defining sourced traits. In fact, many current categories in the article contradict the very standard you're arguing for. If you are advocating for stricter enforcement of OVERCAT, then we must also question the relevance or accuracy of these existing categories:

:::::* Category:Actresses from Havana - She was not born or raised in Havana. If the argument is location based, this category lacks merit.

:::::* Category:American musicians of Mexican descent - As stated, she is not merely of descent, she is Mexican by nationality.

:::::* Category:Cuban emigrants to the United States - If you're rejecting Mexican emigrants to the United States, then this category is equally debatable. Cabello emigrated from Mexico, where she was living and is a national of that country too.

:::::* Category:Spanish-language singers of the United States - Having one Spanish-language song and a few Spanish words does not justify this category. She is not a Spanish-language singer by any meaningful standard.

:::::* Category:American musicians of Cuban descent - Again, she is Cuban by nationality, not of descent only.

:::::* Category:American Latin pop singers - Her music is in English and mainstream pop, occasional use of Latin elements does not make her a Latin pop artist.

:::::At this point, it appears that instead of engaging with the clear points being made, you're shifting arguments and introducing new subjective standards. I encourage focusing on consistency and Wikipedia's categorization policies not personal interpretations of notability or musical style.

:::::Unless there's a clear, policy based objection, one that applies evenly across the board, the nationality-based categories that reflect her stated, sourced citizenships should remain. Otherwise, we should apply the same scrutiny to the categories I listed above and consider removing them for accuracy and consistency. RixToken2007 (talk) 02:51, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::I suggested removing categories when they don't apply. I was and am objecting on adding new ones particularly ones that are obviously non defining which I see the citizenship based singer categories as being. For someone who left Mexico at age 6 and lived in the US since then her Mexican legal citizenship based on her father and her Cuban legal citizenship based on birth location and mother have no relevance to anything she has done and have no current impact on her life. At this point in her life they don't matter and what matters more is her ancestry and related culture derived from her mother and father. Also growing up in Miami with its large Cuban community probably had more impact. Basically her parents, thus ancestry, had more influence on her than her legal connections to Mexico and Cuba.

::::::As for consistency the article itself should be internally consistent. She is listed as an America singer in the lead and that is what should be reflected in the categories. What other articles do is based on the individual evaluation of the editors for those article and don't serve as a precedent. I have no issue with some citizenship related categories that show where she came from in the category list :Category:Cuban emigrants to the United States and :Category:Mexican emigrants to the United States should be all that is in the categories related to her other citizenships. Geraldo Perez (talk) 03:40, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::@Geraldo Perez Looking at this from a fair perspective, I can agree with you on some points. So, to close this discussion constructively, how about we keep only the following categories related to her citizenship background:

:::::::Category:Cuban emigrants to the United States

:::::::Category:Mexican emigrants to the United States

:::::::And in exchange, we remove the following categories, as they either misrepresent her nationality, exaggerate her career impact in certain contexts, or are simply not defining:

:::::::* Category:American Latin pop singers

:::::::* Category:American musicians of Cuban descent and Category:American musicians of Mexican descent

:::::::* Category:Spanish-language singers of the United States

:::::::* Category:Actresses from Havana

:::::::This seems like a reasonable compromise that reflects both her legal background and actual career without overcrowding or miscategorizing the article. Let me know if you're open to that. RixToken2007 (talk) 04:07, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::I agree with all the above. Somewhat neutral on the musician ones but those are generally used for instrumentalists, not singers. When you make the changes reference this discussion in the edit summary. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:26, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

Does her citizenship also include Cuba citizenship? As I know, Camila relinquished her cuban citizenship when she got U.S. citizenship. Even Times said: Cabello, who became a U.S. citizen in 2008. [https://time.com/collection/american-voices-2017/4927699/american-voices-camila-cabello/] Camilasdandelions (talk!) 12:40, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

:That is up to Cuba as to whether or not they still consider Cabello a Cuban citizen. The US citizenship oath requires the person to foreswear alliances to any other country but those other countries tend to ignore that and have their own rules on releasing a person from their citizenship obligations. It is up to the individual's personal conscience and personal morality how seriously they take any of their sworn oaths. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:26, 23 May 2025 (UTC)