Talk:Captain America#suggestion to reduce the article

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Captain America}}

{{ping|Courge Marvel}} The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe states pretty clearly that Captain America does not have superpowers. In the Captain America entry in the 1985 edition of the Handbook cited in this article, under {{tq|Known superhuman powers}}, the Handbook simply states {{tq|None}}. In the most recent 2004 edition of the Handbook (volume 4, issue 3), the entry for Captain America under {{tq|Superhuman Powers}} reads {{tq|Strictly speaking, Captain America possesses no superhuman powers; however, his body has been mutated to the pinnacle of human perfection.}} This seems pretty unambiguous to me. Morgan695 (talk) 01:39, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

:{{ping|Courge Marvel}}, please provide the sources here that you claim support the information you are adding to this article. As it stands right now, the source you are currently citing (the 1983 edition of The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe) states unambiguously that that Captain America does not possess superpowers, per my comment above. Morgan695 (talk) 14:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

:{{ping|Morgan695}}, I found the source from Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Master Edition #2, and according to that handbook, it said that Captain America possesses superpowers and the main source of his superpowers is the Super-Soldier Serum. It said that he does have the source of superhuman powers.

::Is there a screenshot of this source somewhere so that we can all see exactly what it does say? BOZ (talk) 22:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

:::The Captain America character sheet in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Master Edition #2 can be seen in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amMozcfDs5w this video] at the 3:20 mark. The headers {{tq|Superhuman physical powers}} and {{tq|Superhuman mental powers}} in the {{tq|Powers and Abilities}} section clearly state {{tq|None}} for each. I assume the confusion here is arising from the final subheader in that section, {{tq|Source of superhuman powers}}, which gives an explanation of the Super Soldier Serum. Though the header {{tq|Source of superhuman powers}} appears to be standard across all character sheets as the section that explains how a given character received/developed the abilities that they possess, the sheet would nevertheless appear to contradict itself.

:::In the case of a divided or ambiguous source, I would default to the most recent 2004 edition of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe which, per my comment above, states the following under the section {{tq|Superhuman Powers}}:

::::{{tq|Strictly speaking, Captain America possesses no superhuman powers; however, his body has been mutated to the pinnacle of human perfection. He possesses strength, agility, endurance, speed, and reflexes superior to any Olympic-level athlete, and his bodily functions have been enhanced to the peak of human efficiency. His body eliminates excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance.}}

:::I'd also point out that the contradictory Master Edition similarly uses language around the character being at the {{tq|pinnacle of human perfection}} and not specifically referencing superpowers. I am unable to find a legitimately accessible version of the 2004 edition of the Handbook that a third party editor would be able to independently review; I do not wish to contravene any policies around direct links to pirated material, but if one was to type "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe read online" into a search engine, they may be able to find the document in question to confirm this independently. Morgan695 (talk) 23:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

::::I'm inclined to agree with you, that the article should say he has no superhuman powers, but rather he is a peak human. BOZ (talk) 23:05, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

:{{ping|Courge Marvel}}, why are you continuing to change and revert the article while this discussion is ongoing? The behavior you're displaying here is getting dangerously close to edit warring, and doesn't inspire confidence that you intend to actually engage with other editors to build consensus. Morgan695 (talk) 23:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

::First of all, I gave you the source that said about Captain America does possess superpowers. My behavior is not getting dangerously close to edit warring. It's you who not wanting to admit the source that I gave you. If you want to see it for yourself on look on this website video https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=a5cc152b3b023cc6&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIKdFnM8E5C88a6rgwFhclr3ZzcRwA:1726790089705&q=official+handbook+of+the+marvel+universe+master+edition+%232&tbm=vid&source=lnms&fbs=AEQNm0BglSNKPbDQcL4Et01QEIYvJ5VGsHgUL_tsKqYywhWXkknveTpaLEIQiU02u5i1FK5Aui8Lbcs6UtNG0K_ZRX5_Sfaez_nbio7ZevU-01UapIxO69dMWeVTKP_UKwkGJCgdKokBltMkGPI1FN-y8-Tg0DL-nDDfqlPMZbZOcjRwH-BTvg1y78FPInUgmuWgWT-z71LyJ6bhpdCbxuih61-Pqrv05w&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjT7ZevmtCIAxXk38kDHWsLMvsQ0pQJegQIDxAB&biw=1366&bih=599&dpr=1#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:48882ebc,vid:-O5UNljorVY,st:0

::And select time stamp for 14:19 Courge Marvel (talk) 23:56, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

::Also, look at the section that officially confirmed that he possesses "source of superhuman powers".

::Look at the video and select time stamp for 14:19 and see it for yourself. Courge Marvel (talk) 00:02, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::Yes, that is the same character sheet I referenced in my comment above, and which you can see under {{tq|Superhuman physical powers}} and {{tq|Superhuman mental powers}} states {{tq|None}} for each. I'm not really sure how to move forward here; in my view the sources in question explicitly state that {{tq|Captain America possesses no superhuman powers}}, yet Courge Marvel is clearly not going to be moved from their position. Morgan695 (talk) 00:06, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::::Have you looked on Source of superhuman powers? Courge Marvel (talk) 00:11, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::Yes, I did. I explicitly referenced it in my comment above. Did you not read it? Morgan695 (talk) 00:14, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::::::Take a look on this source I found. According to Marvel Avengers Ultimate Character Guide #2, it officially stated that he possesses superhuman powers of endurance, which means he does possesses superhuman powers. You can't tell me that he doesn't have superpowers when I showed you that he does.

::::::Take a look on these website

::::::https://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Avengers-Ultimate-Character-Guide/dp/0744043247

::::::Take a look on Captain America's profile from what the official book says

::::::https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91BD+y8HtQS._SL1500_.jpg Courge Marvel (talk) 00:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::::I'm not sure that a licensed children's encyclopedia is the word of god here. I would also call your attention to the Stan Lee quote currently in the article, which makes specific reference to the character lacking {{tq|"some exotic super-power to make his episodes seem colorful"}}. Morgan695 (talk) 04:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::::::::You not sure that "a licensed children's encyclopedia" is the source for the Captain America's powers?

::::::::I don't know what else to say other than that is the proof I can give you as of right now. It's according to the source I found it from. You saw it with your eyes that it said that he possesses superpowers. Courge Marvel (talk) 05:06, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::Even if an officially licensed children's encyclopedia states the Captain America has superpowers, what do you do with all the other sources that state the opposite? It would seem that majority rules here. PanagiotisZois (talk) 07:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::It appears User:Courge Marvel has once again reverted my edits, this without even providing an edit summary. I'm really uncertain how I can move forward in good faith and build consensus here; I attempted to synthesize Courge Marvel's concerns and omits any mention of the character lacking superpowers that I seems to be the main sticking point here, but apparently even that was an unacceptable compromise for them. If I continue to engage here this is going to become an edit war, so I would appreciate if other editors would be willing to weigh in on the best way forward.

:::::::::I also don't want to cast aspersions here, but I feel compelled to flag that based on the syntax of some of Courage Marvel's comments ("it said that he does have the source of superhuman powers", "there will be going to be a war edit"), I think there may be a language barrier issue here that is flattening the nuance between the idea of "superpowers" and the the idea of a character being described as a "superhuman". Morgan695 (talk) 20:49, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::So at some point the attempt to come to an agreement and consensus fails when one party refuses to compromise and continues to revert the other party. At that point you can give up because they want what they want, or you can keep fighting them; either way is a bad approach for you and for the encyclopedia. We could try an RFC or some other method to achieve consensus? BOZ (talk) 22:10, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:The official Marvel Comics handbooks are infamous for understating character power levels to ridiculous degrees. For example, Thor, even without the Odinforce, during a Tom DeFalco story featuring Zarrko the Tomorrow Man, literally struck his hammer with the force of a Big Bang (or to be specific, two Thor copies, who were exactly as powerful as him together did so), and provided the energy for a machine that could destroy infinite timelines, and yet the Marvel handbooks stubbornly and idiotically claim that he can only lift a 100 tons, despite that he has demonstrated literally infinite power on multiple occasions, and with the Odinforce he should be as powerful as Odin, who has demonstrated feats enormously beyond even that scale.

:In the case of Captain America the discrepancy is not nearly as extreme, but despite that he is officially peak human maximum in every single physical area, in practice he has demonstrated feats far beyond the real life human maximum, including dodging dozens of lightspeed laser beams at the same time. David A (talk) 09:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::As the article itself acknowledges, the precise parameters of any long-running serialized superhero's powers are always going to vary widely across stories due to editorial dictates and artistic license taken by authors. In any case, I've revised the section to omit any explicit acknowledgement to the character lacking superpowers, but still using the "peak human perfection" language that is consistent across sources. Hopefully this is a fair comproimse, as this is really starting to feel like a "could Goku beat Superman" type of playground debate and I really don't know how productive continued back-and-forth discussion is going to be. Morgan695 (talk) 15:04, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::Look, I am just making an argument for that if you want to define what the characters can and cannot do, you should preferably use the source material, rather than the handbooks, the latter of which are infamous for blatant, and likely deliberate, systematic misinformation in this regard. That is all. However, I obviously agree about that interpretations of the capabilities of the characters differ wildly from writer to writer. David A (talk) 18:33, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::Hey Morgan695 and all those who are reading this message. I'm sorry for having us to go through the debate arguments about Captain America's powers. I admit that he is not as superhumanly powerful as Marvel officially states him to be, but instead he is peak human. However, if he is supposed to be "normal human", then why an official handbook stated that he is completely immune to diseases according to Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Deluxe Edition #2? In my book, that is considered to be at least superhuman immune system. Not to mention that it states that his physical conditioning is superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. I think we should add it on his powers section. And that goes with his stamina too. According to All-New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z Update #2, the handbook officially stated about Captain America's stamina and it said "His biochemistry automatically eliminates excessive buildup of fatigue poisons, contributing to his uncanny endurance and indefatigability." If you ask me, we should add that statement about his stamina on his powers section.

:::Also, I reverted my edits because I want us to keep the peace in this Wikipedia and I do not want any war edit. Courge Marvel (talk) 04:53, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

::::At least I tried to revert my edits. If y'all think that we should leave it the way it is, that's fine. But, I think we should add more information about Captain America's powers and abilities because not all of them are inconsistent. For example, his fighting skills are one of the most important things that are very consistent. Courge Marvel (talk) 05:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::I've reverted the page to the previous compromise edit. I still believe that the article should explicitly state that Captain America lacks superpowers, as I would argue that the fact that he is merely a "perfect human" and not an Übermensch is an important aspect of his character, but to be blunt I really don't feel especially compelled to draw out this discussion any further. I would also caution against adding excessive details about in-universe information such as special powers for articles about fictional characters, as it can quickly become fancruft and bloat the article. Morgan695 (talk) 22:27, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

{{ping|Courge Marvel}} Please do not start yet another edit war. Your additions are being reverted by multiple editors to because they are not beneficial contributions to this article. I would encourage you to review WP:PRIMARY and MOS:WAF if you wish to make a positive contribution here; this is not a Fandom Wikia, and excessive in-universe information attributed to primary sources is not appropriate for inclusion here. Morgan695 (talk) 19:31, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:Okay. I wasn't trying to start an edit war at all. I'm not starting an edit war. Thank you for helping me to understand. Courge Marvel (talk) 03:31, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::A general rule of thumb when writing about fiction on Wikipedia is that we want to avoid fancruft as much as possible, i.e. highly specific details that are only of interest to hardcore fans. For example, it is enough to simply state that Captain America has superstrength and is a master martial artist. Extended descriptions of the parameters of his superstrength, or exhaustive lists of the specific fighting styles he's trained in, are not relevant to the article. Morgan695 (talk) 17:34, 21 May 2025 (UTC)