Talk:Carolina Nairne#rfc 9A07AC1

{{Archive top|1=The general consensus is to use Nairne, keeping in mind that there could obviously be some necessary exceptions in order to resolve ambiguity (e.g., if the first name had to be used because something was phrased with ambiguous proximity to a different "Nairne").

The primary rationale for otherwise excluding titles/first names (e.g., "Lady" or "Carolina/Caroline," as some argued) is via MOS:SURNAME, which is a reflection of the prevailing community-wide consensus toward the vast majority of articles in the vast majority of circumstances. It could be overridden with clear local consensus to do so, but that does not appear to be the case here.

--slakr^\ talk / 06:38, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

}}

{{Re|Eric Corbett}} I see your point that [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carolina_Nairne&oldid=820876165 "Th(e)re are several Nairnes and Oliphants"], but that's actually a pretty common case, most biographies of any detail will also write about parents, spouses, siblings, and children with the same last name. And yet WP:LASTNAME is clear that we should use the last name to refer to the person after the first mention. I chose "Oliphant", since it seems she wrote most of her work before becoming Lady Nairne, but there is another alternative that [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carolina_Nairne&oldid=6251419 the original author of this article chose], which is to use "Lady Nairne" - would you agree to that? --GRuban (talk) 14:40, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

:No. The article stays as it is. Eric Corbett 15:38, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

How should the article refer to its subject, Carolina Oliphant, Lady Nairne, after the initial mention of her full name? --GRuban (talk) 17:46, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

In chronological order,

• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carolina_Nairne&oldid=6251419 When the article was created, in 2004], it used "Lady Nairne". This mostly remained for the next 13 years until
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carolina_Nairne&diff=prev&oldid=818610231 Two weeks ago, in 2018], User:Eric Corbett began using "Carolina", his reasoning being [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carolina_Nairne&oldid=820876165 "Th(e)re are several Nairnes and Oliphants"]
• I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carolina_Nairne&oldid=820820657 used Oliphant], per WP:LASTNAME. It was quickly reverted by Eric Corbett, as above.

WP:LASTNAME in our Manual of Style is clear:

{{blockquote|After the initial mention of any name, the person should generally be referred to by surname only, without an honorific prefix such as "Mr", "Mrs", "Ms", "Miss", or "Mx" or by a pronoun.}}

It explains why:

{{blockquote|Generally speaking, subjects should not be referred to by their given name. The use of the given name gives the impression that the writer knows the subject personally, which is not relevant—even if true.}}

There is the additional issue that the article subject is female. Wikipedia:Writing about women#Use surnames says that repeatedly using only her first name to refer to a woman "can serve to infantilize her". In contrast, the males in the article, excepting only "Carolina's father Laurence", are referred to by their last name: "Burns", "Purdie", "Nairne". [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carolina_Nairne&diff=820954001&oldid=820952896 "Carolina and Burns", which Eric Corbett just changed from "Nairne and Burns"], is a particular contrast, using the woman's first name and the man's last name.

Also, though it shouldn't be the deciding factor, there is the subject's own usage. The last "Nairne" in the article is in a quote from the subject herself, in a letter to a friend, referring to her husband. Even in choosing a pseudonym for herself, she chose "Mrs. Bogan". It doesn't seem she was used to publically referring to adults by their first names, so I doubt she would welcome such familiarity from an encyclopedia.

• I prefer "Oliphant", per WP:LASTNAME, though would accept "Nairne" or "Lady Nairne". But I am quite opposed to "Carolina" for the reasons given in WP:LASTNAME and Wikipedia:Writing about women. --GRuban (talk) 17:47, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

• Caroline. "Writing about women" is an essay, with all the lack of weight it deserves. For several reasons Caroline is better, with just one of those reasons being clarity. It's not just here that the first name is a better choice, but such crusading changes overlook the benefits and context. One size does not fit all. - SchroCat (talk) 17:54, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
• : What are the benefits, beyond the nebulous claim of clarity? Is there anything about this topic which makes it different from most other biographies, where we use WP:LASTNAME? Pburka (talk) 22:06, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
• ::Aside from your seemingly misguided belief that the MoS is the last stop shop for grammatical excellence, can you provide any benefits of not using her first name? Cassianto^Talk 22:24, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
• ::: Surely those who want to deviate from the standard ought to be the ones to explain the benefits of ignoring rules, but the benefits of using her last name include: 1. consistency with the rest of the project; 2. an appropriately formal tone for an encyclopedia; and 3. consistency within the article itself (all men are referred to by last name). Pburka (talk) 22:33, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
• ::::The MoS is not a rule, it is a guideline. Rules also do not exist around consistency. Cassianto^Talk 23:55, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
• ::::You have conveniently ignored her father who is referrred to by his first name, and her husband who is referred to by his relationship as "her husband". And I have given my reasons for deviating from "the standard" - which is just a recommendation. Richerman (talk) 23:11, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

• Oliphant or Nairne. I see no compelling reason to ignore the guidance of WP:LASTNAME here. Pburka (talk) 18:20, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
• : I'm curious if any of the advocates for 'Carolina' would also support changing the Robert Burns page to use 'Robert' throughout, for clarity and to avoid confusion? Pburka (talk) 22:41, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
• ::Apples and pears. Did Robert Burns' name change during his lifetime? Eric Corbett 22:56, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

• Carolina for me to. Using anything else will make for confusing reading. Cassianto^Talk 20:06, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

• Oliphant or Nairne. WP:LASTNAME provides pretty clear guidance. Using first names is unencyclopedic and an argument that it is "just better" in this specific case is, unsurprisingly, very unconvincing. The Drover's Wife (talk) 20:12, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

• Status quo. Let's first of all remind ourselves that WP:LASTNAME is merely a guide, not the letter of the law, not helped by nonsense such as that spouted by The Drover's Wife that using first names is unencyclopedic. But the situation is rather more subtle than GRuban presents. Carolina wrote all of her published work anonymously, most of it before her marriage, when she would have been called Carolina Oliphant. But it wasn't until after her death that her work was attributed to her married name and title, i.e. Carolina Nairne, Baroness Nairne. It's about time GRuban abandoned his misguided crusade. Let's also remind ourselves that Lords quite commonly use only their last name. Eric Corbett 20:58, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
• : Sorry, don't get how "that Lords quite commonly use only their last name" is an argument that we should use the Lady's first name. It would seem to be an argument to use the last name. Could you explain? --GRuban (talk) 21:25, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
• :: I will, although I shouldn't have to. You said as part of your evidence that {{tq|"The last 'Nairne' in the article is in a quote from the subject herself, in a letter to a friend, referring to her husband."}} Her husband was Lord Nairne, geddit? Eric Corbett 21:43, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

• Carolina Eric Corbett's argument makes a lot of sense. Also it does give sensible advice in Wikipedia:Writing about women where it says "First names are sometimes needed for clarity. For example, when writing about a family with the same surname, after the initial introductions they can all be referred to by first names. A first name might also be used when a surname is long and double-barreled, and its repetition would be awkward to read and write. When a decision is made to use first names for editorial reasons, use them for both women and men". Her father's is referred to by his first name, as "Oliphant" would be confusing, and for all the other males mentioned there is no reason to use their first names as they're not of the same familyand only mentioned in passing, so it would just cause confusion. The one exception is her husband who has the same names as his son and so is, quite correctly, referred to as just "her husband". Richerman (talk) 22:25, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
• Nairne as being the proper usage of marital last name which she would have used during her lifetime. Meanwhile the article is purple-prose ridden a bit at this point. Wikipedia is not literature - nor ought it pretend to be. No other member of the family is dealt with in detail, so we are not going to have confusion rampant. Only in places where confusion is likely ought first names be used. Collect (talk) 14:44, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
• :Where is the purple prose, or do you mean that there are too many long words that you don't understand? Or are you so unused to seeing competently written prose on Wikipedia? And what has the level of detail other members of her family are dealt with got to do with the price of fish? Eric Corbett 15:11, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
• ::Um -- can you show me two people with the same grandparents who are not cousins or closer? Does saying that two people with the same grandparents are cousins add anything substantive to an encyclopedia article, for example? Frankly, if they were not cousins, I would certainly think that fact would help readers. Then the issue is how useful "subsequently" being sentenced to death helps the sentence which includes the following year. I find it hard to be sentenced previously in the following year but your mileage appears to vary. The only other question appears to be whether obscuring names in a prayerbook is substantively different from covering the names. I fear that if the word "obscured" is found in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (requires a subscription) that this might be an improper borrowing from that source. [https://books.google.com/books?id=VZk9AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=carolina+oliphant&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyyP-k0uTYAhVFR6wKHakPAF0QuwUILTAA#v=snippet&q=prayer&f=false] shows her own words ... and the term she herself uses is "pasted over" for which I think "covered" is a far better term than "obscured" indeed. And her own book is likely a better source than the one cited in any case. ( "Life and Songs of the Baroness Nairne: With a Memoir and Poems of Caroline Oliphant the Younger by Baroness Carolina Oliphant Nairne" page 18 of the Memoirs should be a reasonably reliable source?) Does this sourcing and reasoning sufficiently handle your cavils? Collect (talk) 18:29, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

::::My mileage does indeed vary from yours, thankfully. Just to take a couple of examples from your idiotic list: "{{tq|"... who had commanded the second line of the Jacobite army at the Battle of Prestonpans in 1745 and subsequently been sentenced to death the following year."}} He could have been sentenced to death for another reason entirely than his involvement in the Battle of Prestonpans, which is the meaning of subsequently. And Carolina's parents could have been cousins via a different relationship than being grandchildren of Lord Nairne – we each have two sets of grandparents for instance. But what of the "purple prose"? Or am I seeing confirmation of a comment made by Charles Harrington Elster in 2005: "Purple prose doesn't seem to have become wholly pejorative until the twentieth century, when steep declines in the vocabulary and reading comprehension of college-educated Americans caused a panic in the education establishment and the newspaper industry". Eric Corbett 22:45, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::I fear I find your assertion that I am idiotic is a tad off-putting in real discussions.

:::::"Subsequently" has the definition of "following or coming after" per Chambers. "Subsequently" has no lexicographical connection with your assertion of causality. (Perhaps you conflated the word with "consequently"? I am careful with word usage).

:::::Secondly, the point is that first cousins have to share a grandparent There is no other way to be first cousins!

:::::Lastly you appear to think it is idiotic to use a memoir written by the actual historical person as a reliable source but she is the only person from whom that item is known to be documented in the first place! Guess where Oxford picked it up?

:::::I do request you strike the idiotic as being quite ill-suited for any talk page. Collect (talk) 23:31, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::I do understand that the truth can sometimes be a little difficult to accept, as in this case. Eric Corbett 02:17, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

• I've read quite a few RFCs, many of which, sadly, fall far short of what we might hope to find in such a discussion, namely, an exposition of positions, supported by evidence in the form of guidelines, and policies, and written in a neutral way, with an emphasis on logic and dispassionate persuasion. That said, the characterization of arguments as "idiotic" is a blemish—it would be unwelcome even were it true, but especially so when off-base. I happen to be packing for a trip, so do not have time now to examine the strengths of the arguments - my past experience is that Eric is often right, and that's typically my default assumption, but I typically make the same assumption when Collect is involved, so I am not about to add my assessment of the strengths of the arguments without careful review, which will take time I do not have at the moment. Luckily, I don't need to assess which argument is more persuasive, as my narrow point is that calling an argument "idiotic" is not desirable even when true, and definitely not when the argument has some merit. It would be nice if it were withdrawn, although my experience is that this request is unlikely to be honored, so I'll settle for simply asking that all parties recommit to discussing reasonably. The underlying facts are quite interesting, and deserve further exposition.S Philbrick(Talk) 01:02, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• (applause). To shorten the arguments for: WP:LASTNAME. The main arguments against are that she changed her last name - which is true of most of our female and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Modest_Stein&diff=820973541&oldid=816282027 a number of our male] subjects; and shares her last name(s) with other people in her article - which is true of almost all of our subjects. If those arguments were to suffice, we might as well say that WP:LASTNAME has no meaning. --GRuban (talk) 01:12, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• :Good idea, let's say it then. "WP-LASTNAME has no meaning". Eric Corbett 02:17, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• ::The use of a consistent "house style" - enshrined in an authoritative "manual of style" has for a very long time been considered very important in collaboratively produced publications such as newspapers, magazines, almanacs and encyclopedias. The resulting consistency has all kinds of obvious benefits - I expect Mr. Corbett, without too much intellectual effort, could list many of these himself, so I won't waste time and space with such a list here. The case of a collaboratively (written and) edited website like Wikipedia is not necessarily identical with (say) a print encyclopedia like Britannica - for instance we use United States spelling for some articles and British spelling for others, and are generally rather freer with our "house rules". On the other hand to say the any section of our own manual of style "has no meaning" is (trying very hard here not to use a naughty word) completely inappropriate. Please, everyone, recognize that the preservation of our Wikipedia house style is (or should be) a prime consideration. MOS articles are NOT mere "essays" - or if they are they need upgrading to become authoritative rules, not to be broken except for a very good reason. Assuming the relevant MOS rule applies to a particular case as it clearly DOES in this case, creating exceptions to our house rules needs to be done with due consideration, and documentation needs to be added to the relevant MOS article so that the new exception can be applied as consistently as the original rule. In any case the onus is absolutely on the party wishing to change the rule that this will result in and improvement to overall house style, as well as a particular article. "All else confusion". --Soundofmusicals (talk) 12:17, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• ::This is still me - breaking my last post by raising my own personal take on this particular case rather than a general comment. The use of "Caroline" instead of "Lady Nairne" grates almost intolerably - it is not only has nothing whatever to be said for it (and you can say all day that it is "clearer" without making that nebulous contention any truer) but it is also disturbingly patronising and sexist (and would have been considered so in the VERY distant days of my own youth, when our culture in relation to such things was very different). --Soundofmusicals (talk) 12:17, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• :::I will confess that the issue of consistency has been troubling me, but not the inconsistency with the MoS you refer to. I am all in favour of the guidance offered by a manual of style, but it is at the end of the day just that. Guidance. No, the inconsistency that's been bothering me is between this article and another I wrote a few days ago on one of Carolina's songs, "The Laird o' Cockpen". The arguments I've put forward here don't apply in that latter case, and there I think that Nairne would be quite appropriate. So for that reason I've edited this article accordingly. Eric Corbett 14:07, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

{outdent}

There are two issues here:

:1. The first is the notion that an MOS is "mere" guidance. This is taking an unjustifiably light-hearted view and needs scotching. A "meaningful" MOS ought, by very definition, to be followed strictly and literally unless there is a very good reason indeed for making an exception in a particular case. Otherwise, as another editor has remarked, there is no point in having an MOS at all. Simple as that.

:2. The second issue (or set of closely related issues) relates directly to this article:

::a. What would is the correct style be, following the letter of the MOS?

::b. Does this read well, and is it clear? If not, is there good and sufficient reason for making an exception to the MOS as it has been generally applied in this case?

::c. IF there is a sufficient reason for making an exception to the MOS as above, do we need to change the MOS to allow for this situation in other contexts? (in other words, does the MOS need to be improved)?

My own viewpoint is that issue 2a, in the article as most recently edited, is still problematic. Does the MOS actually require we use a married woman's surname at every point where she is mentioned, even when she was a small child? or might an occasional "Carolina" actually serve as legitimate "elegant variation" at such points without breaking our house rules, or commonsense avoidance of apparent sexism? I think it might, on reflection. And, at least initially, doesn't the MOS give us a very good precedent for "Lady Nairne" - as in the original text before this whole thing blew up? Having read the thing (which I probably should have done first) I really think it does! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 15:16, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

:Whether you like it or not, the MoS is mere guidance, and stating the bleedin' obvious by saying so is by no means "an unjustifiably light-hearted view". If you want the MoS to become mandatory, you need to have that discussion elsewhere.If you post on that subject again here I will delete your posting as an irrelevant distraction. Your "sexism" argument I take for what it is, and have no sympathy with it. And yet you still fail to recognise a more important point than whatever the MoS says, which is how reliable sources refer to Carolina Nairne. You really can't have your cake and eat it. Eric Corbett 16:09, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

::I thought you had more or less accepted that we DO need to have consistently applied "house rules", albeit they are not set in stone. I still suspect we differ less than you imagine. Have another look at the MOS on this point and you may find it agrees with your case more closely than you realised, anyway. In any case I have (fairly) extensively edited the article itself - applying the MOS, and rewording some obscure prose and other infelicities. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 16:58, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

:::I have read the MoS, which is partly why I was so confident in holding my ground on this issue. As I said above, what has swung me into the name change camp is consistency between articles on Carolina Nairne and her work. Most of what you've done seems fine to me. Let's hope it also seems fine to those so volubly in favour of a name change based solely on their interpretation of the MoS rather than what it actually says. Eric Corbett 19:21, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

• Nairne as default, when necessary use 'Carolina Nairne' or 'Lady Nairne' for clarity. We don't need to use 'maiden name' except in early life and/or lead to establish 'birth name'. This is exactly how we behave towards innumerable actors and writers with an 'adopted' name (ie we don't use their birth name until they become professionally active, so why should we use 'maiden' name until a woman is married if she is better known by her married name?). There are reasons other than consistency (which itself is desirable, but not essential), which include that use of first name, as in RL, implies an informal closeness to the subject, which is not an appropriate 'tone' for a WP article. Normally we only deviate from this with children, which again mirrors the practice of RL. Pincrete (talk) 11:42, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
• Nairne by default; I concur with Pincrete. All of this junk-waving about "MoS is just a guideline" and "Writing about women is just an essay" is hot air; it has nothing to do with whether the reasoning in them, and the consensus that agreed on that reasoning, is sound.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:13, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
• :You have a rather idiosyncratic view of what constitutes "hot air", but c'est la vie. Eric Corbett 02:08, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
• Nairne {{sbb}} because that is the name that goes with her title. Else Oliphant. L3X1 Become a New Page Patroller! (distænt write) 01:31, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

• Nairne as default, per LASTNAME. No proper reason has been given to diverge from MoS guidance. --John (talk) 13:50, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

• Nairne by default, per Pincrete and John. Using her last name maintains the encyclopaedic tone we're supposed to strive for and is the accepted practice in Wikipedia per LASTNAME. I do not see compelling reasons to deviate from the norm as there are very few instances where there is any confusion about which Nairne is being discussed. Ca2james (talk) 05:58, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• Lady Nairne or just Nairne. Something that I think has been glossed over is the fact that the long standing consensus on this page was to use last names, with occassional first name to distinguish. I don't think there's a convincing reason to go against the original style, let alone ignore the wider consensus of MOS guidance. I side with Pincrete and others above, I see no good reason to abandon the existing style and abandon the MOS. WP:LASTNAME has almost 500 page watchers and represents a pretty wide consensus. Following the advice doesn't lead to absurd, difficult, or unclear results so I don't think there's a practical reason to make an exception. I think Lady Nairne solves the distinction problem, so after that it's just personal taste and on that I'd still side with guidance pages. Wugapodes [t^hɔk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɻɪbz] 10:03, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
• Have you actully read this article? Or are you simply making a poorly informed general comment? Eric Corbett 12:21, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
• Yes, I did. But I guess you oppose WP:AGF since it's just a guideline. I looked through the page history and based my comment on the previous versions that didn't use Nairne and that started the RfC. If you think the issue's already been resolved, you should have removed the RfC tag and closed the discussion. Wugapodes [t^hɔk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɻɪbz] 22:07, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
• You're partially correct, but I don't oppose WP:AGF because it's just a guideline, I oppose it because it's a self-evidently stupid idea. As for closing this RfC, I didn't open it and I'm not one of the godly administrators tasked with judging consensus, so it's not for me to say whether or not it's run its course. And why you chose to comment on an old version of the article that was not in dispute remains something of a mystery. Eric Corbett 14:17, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Nairne, with first names or titles given when necessary for disambiguation, and the first name only used stand-alone when referring to her youth. While I greatly respect the opinions of those who want to use her first name by default, and entirely understand the arguments for doing so, "surname by default" seems to be the format that best serves readers, as it's the name format readers are most likely to have come across when reading similar material both on Wikipedia and elsewhere. I had the same "notable woman who had a lot of relatives with the same surname, all of whom have to be discussed in-depth in the article" issue with Eilley Bowers, and ultimately came to the same conclusion there as well. ‑ Iridescent 22:17, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
• I've come to the same conclusion, although perhaps by a different route. Eric Corbett 14:23, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

{{Archive bottom}}

I have a subscription to the BNA at the moment and whilst searching for information on Carolina Nairne I came across a reference to a book The Scottish Songstress, written by her great grand-niece about her life and work, which is available online [https://archive.org/details/cu31924013529239 here] Richerman (talk) 22:07, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

::From further searching on the BNA I've found that her best known song for many years was Land o'the Leal [http://musicofyesterday.com/sheet-music-l/land-o-leal/] which was attributed to Burns for a long time. On the website I've given it says she claimed herself to have written it, but in the newspaper article I have from 1884 it seems the controversy was still ongoing but the editor says he is in possession of a letter from a member of her family saying she had written it. I've also got the lyrics of Would Ye Be Young Again? if they're of interest. Richerman (talk) 23:03, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

:::I've also found an interesting titbit in the The Evening Telegraph (Dundee) 10 October 1888 in an article entitled "CAROLINA, BARONESS NAIRNE. THE PERTHSHIRE POETESS. (From the Sun.)": "One of her songs, The Attainted Scottish Nobles, was sung to George IV. on his vi»it to Scotland in 1822, and learning that the author of it was the wife of one of the gentlemen who had suffered for their fidelity to the Stuart cause, had the courtesy restore to Major Nairne his title of Baron" This is confirmed on page 48 and 49 of The Scottish Songstress, where it adds that the petition was brought before the king by Sir Walter Scott. I would add it myself but it would mean rejigging the text so I'll leave that up to the main editors. Richerman (talk) 00:05, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

::::Thanks for that source Richerman. I'm sure you'll understand that I have no intention of doing anything more with this article in the current climate. I achieved what I set out to, which was to update the article – which was largely based on the 1911 DNB – into something that was less of an embarrassment. I realise of course that that's an ephemeral thing, as it will no doubt turn into the usual gray goo soon enough, but I have no power to do anything about that. It's become an unproductive time sink from my perspective, and there's so many other things to be getting on with anyway. There's no article on "The land o' the leal", for instance, but I'll not be rushing to help with that any time soon. One might have thought that WP would be supportive of any effort to improve the coverage of women, but evidently not. Eric Corbett 02:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::Ah, fair enough. There seem to be lots of others interested in getting it just right so expect they'll be happy to get stuck in and sort it out - BTW shouldn't that be "grey goo" in British English? :-) Richerman (talk) 10:50, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::@Richerman The term originated in Engines of Creation which was written in American English, hence "gray goo". This being Wikipedia, our article is of course at the other spelling because [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grey_goo&oldid=627772 an IP created this drivel in 2003] and the Great God MOS:RETAIN doesn't allow anyone to change it. ‑ Iridescent 11:49, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::I'll let them have that one then. I asked a long question on the science reference desk about car tyres once and some kind soul went through my post and changed every instance of tyres to tires. I told him thanks, but no thanks. Richerman (talk) 14:26, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

The IPA (phonetic) transcription of her surname should be added so foreign readers know how to say it. 1.127.111.186 (talk) 12:35, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

{{ping|Isaidnoway}} There are no such things as baronesses in the peerage of Scotland and I can find no evidence other than the ILN article that Carolina ever held the title "Baroness Keith". As the wife of Lord Nairne, she was entitled to be called "Lady Nairne" – that's it. The [https://www.oxforddnb.com/display/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-19723 ODNB] refers to her accordingly. Zacwill (talk) 10:36, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:{{U|Zacwill}} - According to [https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/article/lady-nairne-flower-strathearn this article] - William’s grandfather, alongside many Jacobite supporters, had lost his title and lands in the 1745 rebellion. Following the visit of King George IV to Scotland in 1822, there followed a campaign to restore old Jacobite peerages to these families. On 17th June 1824, Parliament passed a bill which restored forfeited titles, and William became Baron Nairne, with Carolina known as Baroness or Lady Nairne.{{pb}}

:And [https://www.thenational.scot/news/18044666.carolina-oplihants-influence-scottish-culture-second-burns/ this article] also says the same thing - Thanks largely to Sir Walter Scott who knew them well, Nairne’s family title was restored in 1824 by King George IV, and she became Baroness Nairne.{{pb}}And [https://www.nls.uk/media-u4/22284/discover-nls-08.pdf#page=10 this article] says: However, there is no doubt that Carolina Oliphant, Lady Nairne and finally Baroness Bairne as she became on the death of her only son, contributed a huge wealth to the Scottish ballad and song.{{pb}}The title of the painting by John Watson Gordon used in the article: [https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/3372 Carolina Oliphant, Baroness Nairne, 1766 - 1845. Songwriter]{{pb}}

:Britannica refers to her as [https://www.britannica.com/biography/Carolina-Nairne-Baroness-Nairne-of-Nairne Carolina Nairne, Baroness Nairne], as does Encyclopedia.com [https://www.encyclopedia.com/women/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/nairne-carolina-1766-1845 Lady Caroline Nairne; Carolina Oliphant; Baroness Nairne]{{pb}}And this article from The Times (Aug. 24, 1894, Issue 34351 p.4), reports that [https://link-gale-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/apps/doc/CS67951384/TTDA?u=wikipedia&sid=bookmark-TTDA&xid=55cc61be Under the title of "The Scottish Songster", Messrs. Oliphant, Anderson, and Ferrier announce a sketch of the life of Caroline, Baroness Nairne, author of "The Land of the Leal"]{{pb}}And [https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101036125357&seq=456 this book], The Songstresses of Scotland, has a chapter on her. And [https://ia801604.us.archive.org/2/items/lifesongsofbaron00nairuoft/lifesongsofbaron00nairuoft.pdf#page=7 this book], Life and Songs of the Baroness Nairne is about her. In addition, from The Wikipedia Library, Britannica Biographies; Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of Literature; ProQuest Biographies; all say she was also known as Baroness Nairne, and then there were also dozens of mentions about her in various newspapers and books and magazines too. So I think it's safe to say, and reliably sourced, that she was also known as Baroness Nairne.

:{{pb}}

:As far as Baroness Keith is concerned, I'm not sure about that, this article from The Times (February 12, 1914; Issue 40445 p.11) appears to be referring to Emily Petty-Fitzmaurice, Marchioness of Lansdowne (8th Lady Nairne)

::It is announced that Lord Charles Fitzmaurice, younger son of the Marquess of Landsdowne, will in future be known as Lord Charles Mercer Nairne. This change of name follows the transfer of Meikleour and Tullybeagles in Pertshire, and Aldie in Kincross-shire. Lord Landsdowne succeeded to the Scottish barony of Nairne through his mother, who was the eldest daughter of the Comte de Flahault and of Margaret Baroness Nairne and Baroness Keith, daughter of Admiral Viscount Keith and of Jane Mercer, a descendant of the second Lord Nairne. The succession opened to Lord Landsdowne's grandmother through the death without issue of William, sixth Lord Nairne, the son of Lady Nairne (Caroline Oliphant), the poetress; and the Mercer estates came into the famly through the marriage of her great-grandfather, Robert Nairne, with the heiress of Sir Laurence Mercer of Aldie. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:29, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

::And here is a copy of [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lays_from_Strathearn_by_Caroline_Barones/LRXHqQaQiCoC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PP7&printsec=frontcover Lays from Strathearn]. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:46, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:::The title that was restored to William Nairne in 1824 was a Scottish lordship of parliament. Some sources may refer to lords of parliament as "barons", the equivalent English rank, but this is not strictly correct. Nairne was a lord and his wife was a lady. Zacwill (talk) 17:05, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

::::I understand what you are saying, but "also known as Baroness Nairne" is reliably sourced and verifiable. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:15, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::If it must remain in the article, then I would prefer to see it moved to a note. And "Baroness Keith" absolutely has to go. Zacwill (talk) 17:19, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::I went ahead and removed Keith, but left Baroness Nairne per MOS:FIRST, RS and V. I don't see any reason it should be hidden away in a note. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:32, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Because the reader deserves to know that it's erroneous, and to explain why this is the case in the main text would take up too much space. Zacwill (talk) 22:57, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Do you have a reliable source that explicitly states - "also known as Carolina Baroness Nairne" - is erroneous? Seems like to me that we have enough reliable sources to verify she was also known as Baroness Nairne, and there is no reason to imply otherwise. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:24, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Debrett's Correct Form says:

::::::::::"In the Peerage of Scotland there is no rank of Baron, since in Scotland this term concerns a Barony of land. The equivalent rank of Baron in the Peerage of Scotland is Lord of Parliament, abbreviated to 'Lord'."

:::::::::If there is no rank of baron, there can be no rank of baroness either. Zacwill (talk) 23:46, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::According to Baronage of Scotland - In Scotland, "baron" or "baroness" is a rank of the ancient nobility of the Baronage of Scotland, a hereditary title of honour, and refers to the holder of a barony, erected into a free barony by Crown Charter, this being the status of a minor baron, recognised by the crown as noble, but not a peer.

::::::::::*{{cite book |last1=Henderson |first1=George |title=Lady Nairne and Her Songs |date=1900 |publisher=Alexander Gardner |location=Paisley, Scotland |page=87 |quote=In 1822, on the occasion of a royal visit of George IV. to Holyrood, the King was approached with a petition, drawn up by Sir Walter Scott, praying him to restore the lost titles to attainted nobles. This was done by Act of Parliament in 1824. Major Nairne was restored to his rank in the peerage, and our authoress became Baroness Nairne.}}

::::::::::Academic literature:

::::::::::*{{cite journal |last1=Feldman |first1=Paula R. |title=Women Poets and Anonymity in the Romantic Era |journal=New Literary History |date=Spring 2002 |volume=33 |issue=2 |pages=279-289 |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/20057724 |issn=0028-6087 |oclc=1296558 |quote=Other well-to-do poets, such as Susanna Blamire, Carolina, Baroness Nairne, and Catherine Maria Fanshawe, circulated their works privately in manuscript during their lifetimes but kept them unpublished.}}

::::::::::*{{cite journal |last1=Backscheider |first1=Paula |title=Recent Studies in the Restoration and Eighteenth Century |journal=SEL: Studies in English Literature 1500–1900 |date=Summer 2009 |volume=49 |issue=3 |pages=737-801 |issn=0039-3657 |oclc=1766723 |quote=Although Archipelagic English concludes that a new, comparative, socio-cultural account of the British past is needed, these books circle rather than deeply grasp the writers such as Burns; Carolina, Baroness Nairne; James Hogg; and others who reclaimed pre-Culloden, pre-Union Scotland in a variety of ways while "civilizing" this heritage to make it both modern and attractive to a new generation of aspiring Scots and Scottish people in America and other global settings.}}

::::::::::*{{cite book |last1=Drabble |first1=Margaret |author1-link=Margaret Drabble |editor1-last=Stringer |editor1-first=Jenny |editor2-last=Hahn |editor2-first=Daniel |title=Concise Oxford Companion to English Literature |date=2007 |publisher=Oxford University Press |edition=3rd |quote=Nairne, Carolina, Baroness (née Oliphant) (1766-1845)}}

::::::::::*{{cite journal |last1=Kaul |first1=Suvir |title=Recent Studies in the Restoration and Eighteenth Century |journal=SEL Studies in English Literature 1500-1900 |date=June 2021 |volume=61 |issue=3 |pages=519–560 |doi=10.1353/sel.2021.a903394 |quote=Christian also features Carolina Oliphant, the Baroness Nairne, who followed Burns's antiquarianism and produced songs of the Jacobite cause, which included tackling its difficult effects on women's lives.}}

::::::::::*{{cite journal |last1=McGuirk |first1=Carol |title=The Scots Musical Museum. Vols. 2 and 3 of The Oxford Edition of the Works of Robert Burns |journal=The Wordsworth Circle |date=Autumn 2018 |volume=49 |issue=4 |pages=194-201 |issn=0043-8006 |oclc=55943246 |quote=ľn his work with the Museum, Burns saw himself as a bard, not a brand; and he thought of the Museum less as a showcase for product placement than as a hideout. Carolina Oliphant (later in life, Baroness Nairne) played a similar game of hide and seek with her disguised handwriting and faux signatures such as "Mrs. Bogan of Bogan" ("B of B" when she decided to go gender-neutral)}}

::::::::::*{{cite journal |last1=Davis |first1=Leith |title=Robert Burns and Cultural Authority |journal=Criticism |date=Winter 1999 |volume=41 |issue=1 |pages=135-140 |issn=0011-1589 |quote=Similar controversy surrounds "The Land o' the Leal," which was attributed to Burns but is now recognized as the work of Carolina Oliphant, Lady (or Baroness) Nairne.}}

::::::::::*{{cite book |title=Nairne, Carolina Oliphant Nairne, Baroness, 1766-1845 |date=2013 |publisher=ProQuest Biographies |quote=Carolina Oliphant (1766-1845; known as Carolina Nairne, Baroness Nairne, and Lady Naire after her marriage), Scottish poet, is remembered as the author of songs on Scotland and the Jacobite cause, which supported the Catholic King of England, James II, who was deposed due to his Catholicism.}}

::::::::::We have more than enough academic literature to support the usage of " Carolina, Baroness Nairne" in the first sentence without hiding it in a note, or implying that it is a erroneous title. Isaidnoway (talk) 01:02, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::Scottish barons exist, yes, but the term means something entirely different than it does in England. The equivalent of the English baron is the lord of parliament, as I have said. This is the title that Nairne held. Zacwill (talk) 01:49, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

{{od}}

When the ancestral family title was restored in 1824 to William, he became the 5th Baron, (since he was a descendant of Sir Robert Nairne, who was created [https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/Nairne,_Carolina,_Baroness Baron Nairne in 1681]), and [https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-independent-baroness-nairne/167404911/ she then became the Baroness Nairne]; she died in 1845, so it was a title she had for 21 years, and it is very well documented, and verified, in numerous sources I have provided, so it is DUE for inclusion in the lead sentence (not in a note), instead of trying to diminish the title of Baroness or imply that is erroneous. Isaidnoway (talk) 08:41, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

:I feel as though we're going round in circles now. I don't know how many more ways there are to tell you that there are no such things as barons or baronesses in the peerage of Scotland. Any source that uses these terms in relation to a Scottish peer is mistaken. Zacwill (talk) 10:20, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

::Per our policy Wikipedia:Verifiability - content is determined by published information rather than editors' beliefs. There is overwhelming consensus amongst the sources I have provided that later in her life, she was known as Carolina Baroness Nairne, because of the ancestral family title that was restored in 1824 to William. So to borrow your terminology, I don't how many more ways there are to tell you this. I have went above and beyond to meet the burden to demonstrate verifiability. And since it is a significant viewpoint that has been published by multiple reliable sources, it is due for inclusion in the first sentence in the form of prose, rather than a note.{{pb}}And the version I reverted to, minus the Baroness Keith, was the status quo. However, per the RfC consensus at the top of the page, it should be Nairne. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:09, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

:::You have provided sources showing that Carolina was sometimes referred to as "Baroness Nairne"; I have provided sources showing that she was not actually a baroness at all. If the first fact is to be included in the article, then the second should be also. Zacwill (talk) 16:48, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

::::No, you have not provided a source that explicitly states that Carolina "was not actually a baroness at all". I haven't seen you provide a source that even mentions William or Carolina at all, if you did and I missed it, can you please provide it again so I can look it over. Thanks.{{pb}}

::::The only source I've seen from you, Debrett's Correct Form, states: {{tq|In the Peerage of Scotland there is no rank of Baron, since in Scotland this term concerns a Barony of land}}, which is what these titles (Baron/Baroness) concerns. Per [https://books.google.com/books?id=sJ7WWlAmGnoC&pg=PA238-IA3 this book]; In 1681, Sir Robert receives a [https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/clare_constat precept clare constat] of the Nairne lands of Muckersie, dated April 28th ... Robert Nairne reaches his ambition and is created a Peer as Baron Nairne, and all his lands are coverted under a fresh charter to himself, under "Title and Dignity of Baron Nairn on January 27th 1681" ... the MS. Register of the Great Seal, which through the kindness of the sub-curator, Mr. John Anderson, I have seen, states that the title of Baron Nairne is granted to Sir Robert Nairne of Strathord... (and then in 1824, this title is restored to William, which makes Carolina a Baroness){{pb}}

::::And this book explains in greater detail about Nairne, Baron, a title in the Scottish peerage, conferred in 1681, on Robert Nairne of Strathord. - {{cite book | last=Anderson | first=William |author-link=William Anderson (Scottish writer) | title=The Scottish Nation: Or, The Surnames, Families, Literature, Honours, and Biographical History of the People of Scotland | publisher=A. Fullarton & Company| year=1877 |volume=3 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Bp-uP3hDnVgC&pg=PA235}} Isaidnoway (talk) 18:54, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::See [https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun06paul/page/394 The Scots Peerage,] which notes that: "by patent, dated at Whitehall 27 January 1681, [Sir Robert] was created LORD NAIRN". This title was a lordship of parliament, the lowest rank of the peerage of Scotland, not a feudal barony of land. Lords of parliament were sometimes referred to as barons, even in official sources, but this error was eventually corrected. According to [https://archive.org/details/bwb_T2-EHM-784/page/n61 Debrett's Peerage]: "In Scotland, Sir George Mackenzie, Lord Advocate to Charles II, made it clear that the equivalent of Barons in England are Lords of Parliament in Scotland, as the word 'baron' in Scots law relates to Feudal Barons. This claim was immediately and correctly put forward by several Scottish Lords when they received summons as Barons to the House of Lords. Their protests were accepted and they were sent fresh summons as Lords." Zacwill (talk) 19:41, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::The first source just confirms what we already knew, Sir Robert is also known as Lord Nairne, and the history section confirms that Robert was created Baron Nairne in 1681, and William was restored to the barony of Nairne in 1824 and became the 5th baron. The second source doesn't mention Carolina, so it can't be used in the article. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:43, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::The first source confirms that the title was a lordship of parliament, not a barony (even if it was sometimes referred to as such by those who were ignorant of Scottish practices). Zacwill (talk) 07:03, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::It seems unlikely that we're going to come to a consensus here, so I suggest asking for a third opinion. Zacwill (talk) 07:30, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

:Also, can we talk about the fact that you have repeatedly overwritten Carolina's married name without giving any reason for doing so? Zacwill (talk) 14:40, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

{{hat|reason=Discussion has been closed. Third opinion is blocked sock.}}

She wasn't actually a baroness. Baroness Nairne was more of like a moniker that a lot of people called her by, and Lady Nairne was her official title. Thus, in the opening sentence, we should refer to her as "Carolina Oliphant, Lady Nairne, also known as Baroness Nairne." As the wife of the 5th Lord Nairne, a Lord of Parliament in the Scottish peerage, her formal title was "Lady Nairne." In Scotland, a Lord of Parliament ranks above a feudal baron and is a peerage title, distinct from the land-based baronies. However, because a Scottish Lord of Parliament was seen as equivalent in status to an English baron, English sources often styled her "Baroness Nairne"—despite her being neither English nor technically a baroness. This alternative title gained traction, especially in literary and popular circles, due to her renown as a songwriter.[https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun06pauluoft/scotspeeragefoun06pauluoft/page/390/mode/2up]

[http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/nairne1681.htm] Manuductive (talk) 13:14, 10 March 2025 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

:We should refer to her as "Carolina Nairne, Lady Nairne", since that was her married name. And I would still prefer to see "Baroness Nairne" moved to a note with an explanation of why it is wrong. Zacwill (talk) 13:18, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

::Yeah, it's important to note that the baroness usage does not mean she held that title. Manuductive (talk) 13:26, 10 March 2025 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

:::I object to any language that says "she wasn't actually a baroness" or "a note with an explanation of why it is wrong". The overwhelming consensus of sources agree she held that title, and no sources have been provided that explicitly state: "Carolina Nairne was not a Baroness". Isaidnoway (talk) 13:37, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Right, we should reflect what is in the sources, which is that Lady was her actual title from Scots Peerage, and Baroness Nairne was an Anglo-centric interpretation of that which sources in England used to refer to her. Manuductive (talk) 13:57, 10 March 2025 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

::::We have sources indicating that Nairne's title was a Scottish lordship of parliament and we also have sources indicating that there are no barons in the Scottish peerage. That is sufficient. Zacwill (talk) 13:58, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::If we have a source saying there are no barons, we can say that there are no barons. But to say in the article "Caroline in particular was not a Baroness" is a different thing. What you want to say is that English sources called her a Baroness, which is considered equivalent to her Scottish title. Manuductive (talk) 14:04, 10 March 2025 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::Before Isaidnoway removed it, the note I added to the article read: "Carolina is also sometimes referred to as 'Baroness Nairne', although her husband was a lord of parliament rather than a baron." Zacwill (talk) 14:07, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::The "although" might be a bit of SYNTH if you don't have a source that explicitly negates her being a Baroness. I always recommend trying to attract more attention to the discussion by placing an announcement at a relevant wikiproject if you can't come up with a consensus between the two of you. Could try Wikipedia:WikiProject Peerage and Baronetage Manuductive (talk) 14:13, 10 March 2025 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::You could make your note say that Caroline was a member of the Scottish nobility and formally titled Lady Nairne in the Scottish Peerage. Scotland and England have different systems for ranking their nobles. It was common practice in England at that time to refer to Scottish nobles using English titles of roughly equivalent rank, and she became popularly and frequently known in English sources as Baronness Nairne. But make sure it's all directly sourced. Manuductive (talk) 14:19, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

{{od}} Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

William Anderson and David Masson, who are Scottish writers, both agree that Baron Nairne was a title in the Scottish peerage, and that by an Act of Parliament in 1824, the title of Baron was restored to William, Carolina's husband, thereby making her a Baroness.

• {{cite book | last=Anderson | first=William |author-link=William Anderson (Scottish writer) | title=The Scottish Nation: Or, The Surnames, Families, Literature, Honours, and Biographical History of the People of Scotland | publisher=A. Fullarton & Company| year=1877 |volume=3 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Bp-uP3hDnVgC&pg=PA235|quote=Nairne, Baron, a title in the Scottish peerage, conferred in 1681 on Robert Nairne of Strathord}}
• {{cite book |last1=Masson |first1=David |author1-link=David Masson |title=Edinburgh Sketches & Memories |date=1892 |publisher=Adam and Charles Black |location=London |url=https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/71958/pg71958.txt |chapter=Lady Wardlaw And The Baroness Nairne |quote=During the visit of George IV to Edinburgh in 1822, Scott took occasion to suggest to him that the restoration of the attainted Jacobite families to the titles would be a graceful and popular act of his reign, and the consequences was a Bill for the purpose which pass Parliament and received the royal assent in 1824. Thus, at the age of sixty-seven, Major Nairne became Baron Nairne of Nairne in Pertshire, and his wife, at the age of eight-and-fifty, Baroness Nairne.}}
• {{cite book |last1=Anderson |first1=William |title=Model Women |date=1870 |publisher=Hodder & Stoughton |location=London |page=166 |url=https://archive.org/details/modelwomen00ande/page/166/mode/2up |quote=Many lovers had sought in vain the hand of Miss Carolina Oliphant, but on June the 6th, 1806, she married her maternal cousin William Murray Nairne, who was Inspector general of Barracks in Scotland, and held the rank of major in the army. His hereditary title was Baron Nairne, but it was one of the titles attainted by the rebellion. In 1822, George the Fourth visited Scotland, and heard Mrs. Nairnes song, "The Attainted Scottish Nobles" sung: this circumstance is generally supposed to have led to the restoration of the peerage to her husband. At all events, in 1824, the attainder was removed by Act of Parliament, and the title of his fathers bestowed on Major Nairne.}} Isaidnoway (talk) 14:33, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

::[https://archive.org/details/statutesunitedk02britgoog/page/n34/mode/2up?view=theater The act of parliament itself gives the title as "Lord Nairn".] Zacwill (talk) 14:48, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Exactly, thank you, his title was restored to Lord Nairne, which also meant the title of Baron Nairne was restored as well, because we know that it was one of the titles that was attainted by the rebellion, according to all the available sources we have. Isaidnoway (talk) 15:18, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

::::What? Are you suggesting now that Lord Nairne and Baron Nairne are two different titles and that both were removed and then restored? Zacwill (talk) 15:28, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::According to the Dictionary of National Biography, Sir Robert Nairne, the first Lord Nairne, [https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Nairne,_Robert was created a peer of Scotland by the title of Baron Nairne], on 23 January 1681. The Act of Parliament in 1824, yes, gave William back both of these titles, Lord and Baron, and Carolina then became Lady Nairne, also known as Baroness Nairne, according to all the available sources we have. Isaidnoway (talk) 15:37, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::This is so wrong and muddled that it's hard to know where to begin. Which of the sources you have cited indicates that either Sir Robert or William was the holder of multiple peerage titles? The only way this would be true is if we counted the Jacobite titles granted to the family in 1721. Zacwill (talk) 15:54, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::See the sources above and {{cite book |editor=Mair, Robert H. | title=Debrett's Peerage, Baronetage, Knightage, and Companionage | publisher=Dean & Son |location=London |type=Royal Edition | year=1884 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Vlo-AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA503| page=503|quote=William Murray, 5th Baron, restored to the family honours by Act of Parliament 1824 }}. This is not rocket science, it's unclear to me why this is so hard for you to understand. Anyway, I have a cardiologist appointment this afternoon, so I will be gone until this evening. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:09, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Are you assuming based on the use of the plural form "honours" that multiple peerages must be involved, even though no other source has stated or implied this? Zacwill (talk) 16:18, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::There seems to be some dispute about whether you can be a peer of Scotland by virtue of being a baron in and of itself. We don't use Wikipedia as RS in the actual article but just for the sake of argument, according to the Wikipedia pages on Baronage of Scotland, Peerage of Scotland, and List of barons in the peerages of Britain and Ireland the title of baron wouldn't make you a member of the peerage of Scotland. So if he was in the peerage of Scotland, his rank would be Lord of Parliament, having a rank that's equivalent to a British baron. Those writers may have been Scottish, but the books were published in London, presumably for an English audience. So it's fine to say she was "also widely known as Baroness Nairne", and then provide all the context. Unless you're contending that Nairne was an official British baron, which I don't think anybody is. Manuductive (talk) 22:23, 10 March 2025 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::We use reliable sources to write and verify the content in articles, and the consensus amongst those sources is that she was Lady Nairne, also known as Carolina, Baroness Nairne. And the context behind her having those titles is that on 17 June 1824, Parliament passed a bill which restored forfeited titles, and Carolina was then known as Baroness or Lady Nairne, and I don't think it's necessary to provide that context. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:34, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Rather bold of you to start talking about verifiability and sourcing after inventing an entire peerage title out of nowhere. Zacwill (talk) 07:00, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

{{hab}}

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1744959673}}

For the lead sentence of this article, should this article retain the current version with no note, or should we change it to the version with a note?–06:05, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

{{hr}}

• Option A (no note) – Carolina Nairne, Lady Nairne (née Oliphant; 16 August 1766 – 26 October 1845) – also known as Carolina Baroness Nairne,{{cite book | editor1-last=Stephen | editor1-first=Leslie |editor1-link= Leslie Stephen| editor2-last=Lee | editor2-first=Sidney | editor2-link=Sidney Lee |title=Dictionary of National Biography |title-link=Dictionary of National Biography |date=1937-1938 |publisher=Oxford University Press |pages=[https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofnati0014geor/page/22/mode/2up 23-27] |volume=XIV |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofnati0014geor/page/22/mode/2up |chapter=Chapter: N |quote=Nairne, Carolina, Baroness Nairne (1766-1845), that year, 1822, George IV visited Scotland and on the invitation of Sir Walter Scott, interested himself in the fallen Jacobite adherents. The result was the bill of 17 June 1824 which restored them to their birthright. Major Nairne thus became a peer (being the fifth Lord Nairne of Nairne, Perthshire), and his wife was thenceforth known as Baroness Nairne. Nairne, Sir Robert, of Strathord, first Baron Nairne (1600-1683), by Charles II he was appointed one of the lords of session, 1 June 1661, receiving also the honour of knighthood; and on 11 January 1671 he was appointed one of the court of justiciary. On 23 January 1681 he was created a peer of Scotland by the title of Baron Nairne to himself for life ...}}

{{cite journal |last1=McGuirk |first1=Carol |title=Jacobite History to National Song: Robert Burns and Carolina Oliphant (Baroness Nairne) |journal=The Eighteenth Century |date=June 2006 |volume=47 |issue=2 |pages=253–287 |doi=10.1353/ecy.2007.0028 |issn=0193-5380 |oclc=858834132 |lccn=80642257 |jstor=01935380 |quote=Carolina Oliphant (who later in life became Baroness Nairne)}} was a Scottish songwriter.

• Option B (with note) – Carolina Nairne, Lady Nairne{{efn|Carolina is also sometimes referred to as "Baroness Nairne", although her husband was a lord of Parliament rather than a baron.{{cite book|title=Debrett's Peerage and Baronetage|year=1990|editor-last1=Kidd|editor-first1=Charles|editor-last2=Williamson|editor-first2=David|publisher=London: Debrett's Peerage Ltd; London: Macmillan; New York: St Martin's Press|isbn=0-333-38847-X|pages=895 f.|url=https://archive.org/details/debrettspeerageb0000char_u5k8/page/n1124}}}} (née Oliphant; 16 August 1766 – 26 October 1845) was a Scottish songwriter.

{{notelist}}

{{Sources-talk}}

• Option A (no note) – per due for inclusion as prose in the lead sentence. It is reliably sourced and verifiable and it's a significant viewpoint. There is no dispute that Carolina Nairne was also known as Carolina Baroness Nairne, and that has been demonstrated through sustained coverage for 178 years, with multiple sources dated from 1845 through 2023. I oppose any mention implying or otherwise suggesting that she was not a Baroness, as no sources have been provided that explicitly state "Carolina Nairne was not a Baroness". Isaidnoway (talk) 06:24, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

{{collapse top|title=List of sources|bg=black|b-color=blue|fc=white}}

According to [https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/article/lady-nairne-flower-strathearn the National Records of Scotland] - On 17th June 1824, Parliament passed a bill which restored forfeited titles, and William became Baron Nairne, with Carolina known as Baroness or Lady Nairne.

{{pb}}

The parliamentary bill was a notable event in 1824, as evidenced by the amount of coverage it received in the newspapers.

• {{cite news |title=View of Public Affairs: Domestic |work=The Christian Observer |date=June 24, 1824 |volume=24 |issue=270 |page=398 |url=https://archive.org/details/sim_christian-observer-from-the-london-ed_1824-06_24_270/page/398/mode/2up |quote=Bills have been passed originating in the Crown, to reverse the attainders of the Earl of Marr, the Earl of Kenmure, the Earl of Strathallan and Perth, and Lord Baron Nairne, and to restore their living representatives to the honours forfeited by their forefathers.}}
• {{cite news |title=Restoration To Their Honours Of Four Attained Scotch Lords - Reversal Of The Attainder Of Visct. Strafford |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-bristol-mirror-restoration/167592097/ |work=The Bristol Mirror |department=Imperial Parliament - House of Lords |date=May 29, 1824 |location=England |quote=The Earl of Liverpool brought down Bills originating with the Crown to reverse the respective attainders of [...] Lord Baron Nairne, ancestor of William Nairne, Esq.; and to restore the above-named living representatives of the attainted Peers to the honours forfeited by the predecessors.}}
• {{cite magazine |title=Register - Parliamentary Intelligence |magazine=The Edinburgh Magazine and Literary Miscellany |date=September 1824 |volume=15 |page=368 |url=https://archive.org/details/sim_edinburgh-magazine-and-literary-miscellany_1824-09_15/page/368/mode/2up}}
• {{cite news |title=House of Lords |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/jacksons-oxford-journal-house-of-lords/167593743/ |work=Jackson's Oxford Journal |date=May 29, 1824 |location=England}}
• {{cite news |title=In The House of Lords |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/bath-weekly-chronicle-and-herald-house-o/167592775/ |work=Bath Weekly Chronicle and Herald |date=May 27, 1824 |page=3}}
• {{cite news |title=Parliamentary Proceedings |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/ariss-birmingham-gazette-etc-parliame/167593087/ |work=Aris's Birmingham Gazette |date=May 31, 1824 |location=England |page=1}}
• {{cite news |title=Imperial Parliament - House of Lords |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-yorkshire-herald-and-the-york-herald/167593474/ |work=The Yorkshire Herald |date=May 29, 1824 |location=England |page=2}}
• {{cite news |title=House of Lords |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-royal-cornwall-gazette-falmouth-pac/167593988/ |work=The Royal Cornwall Gazette |date=May 29, 1824 |location=England |page=2}}
• {{cite news |title=House of Lords |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-derby-mercury-house-of-lords/167594250/ |work=The Derby Mercury |date=June 2, 1824 |location=England |page=2}}

{{hr}}

The lineage of the Nairne family: Lady Nairne's husband, William Murray Nairne was descended from Sir Robert Nairne of Strathord (Lord Nairne), who was created a peer of Scotland by the title of Baron Nairne by Charles II in 1681. It was during the Battle of Preston (1715), that the titles were [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/attainted attainted]. In 1824, by an act of parliament, William Murray Nairne (Carolina's husband and fifth in line to the titles), had the attainted titles restored to him, and he became Lord Nairne and Baron Nairne – which had been created in 1681 by Charles II. (Sources: 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica; Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. XIV; 1937-1938)

{{hr}}

;Academic sources

• {{cite journal |last1=McGuirk |first1=Carol |title=Jacobite History to National Song: Robert Burns and Carolina Oliphant (Baroness Nairne) |journal=The Eighteenth Century |date=June 2006 |volume=47 |issue=2 |pages=253–287 |doi=10.1353/ecy.2007.0028 |issn=0193-5380 |oclc=858834132 |lccn=80642257 |jstor=01935380 |quote=Carolina Oliphant (who later in life became Baroness Nairne)}}
• {{cite journal |last1=Feldman |first1=Paula R. |title=Women Poets and Anonymity in the Romantic Era |journal=New Literary History |date=Spring 2002 |volume=33 |issue=2 |pages=279-289 |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/20057724 |issn=0028-6087 |oclc=1296558 |quote=Other well-to-do poets, such as Susanna Blamire, Carolina, Baroness Nairne, and Catherine Maria Fanshawe, circulated their works privately in manuscript during their lifetimes but kept them unpublished.}}
• {{cite journal |last1=Backscheider |first1=Paula |title=Recent Studies in the Restoration and Eighteenth Century |journal=SEL: Studies in English Literature 1500–1900 |date=Summer 2009 |volume=49 |issue=3 |pages=737-801 |issn=0039-3657 |oclc=1766723 |quote=Although Archipelagic English concludes that a new, comparative, socio-cultural account of the British past is needed, these books circle rather than deeply grasp the writers such as Burns; Carolina, Baroness Nairne; James Hogg; and others who reclaimed pre-Culloden, pre-Union Scotland in a variety of ways while "civilizing" this heritage to make it both modern and attractive to a new generation of aspiring Scots and Scottish people in America and other global settings.}}
• {{cite book |last1=Sorenson |first1=Janet |chapter=Dialect Poetry |title=The Encyclopedia of Romantic Literature |date=April 12, 2012 |doi=10.1002/9781118300916.wberld007| isbn=978-1-4051-8810-4 |publisher=Wiley-Blackwell |quote=In a higher social register, even Carolina, Baroness Nairne, born in the Scottish Highlands, wrote Scots songs in dialect – although these did appear in print, they were published anonymously, at her insistence.}}
• {{cite book |editor1-last=Linkin |editor1-first=Harriet Kramer |editor2-last=Behrendt |editor2-first=Stephen C. |chapter=Endurance and Forgetting: What the Evidence Suggests |quote=Also of the first generation of women poets of the Romantic era, that is, those who first established their names before 1800, Joanna Baillie; Carolina, Baroness Nairne; Amelia Opie; Lady Ann Lindsay; and Charlotte Smith could regularly be found in anthologies of the 1860s and 1870s. |title=Romanticism and Women Poets: Opening the Doors of Reception |date=2014 |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt130jk19 |pages=15-22 }}
• {{cite journal |last1=Mason |first1=Emma |last2=Worrall |first2=David |last3=Perry |first3=Seamus |last4=Martin |first4=Philip |last5=Nattrass |first5=L. |last6=Gilroy |first6=A. |last7=Verhoeven |first7=W. M. |last8=Muse |first8=A. |display-authors=4 |title=The Nineteenth Century: The Romantic Period |journal=The Year's Work in English Studies |date=January 1, 2001 |volume=79 |issue=1 |pages=443–545 |doi=10.1093/ywes/79.1.443 |quote=Francis T. Palgrave's Golden Treasury still included selections from Anna Laetitia Barbauld, Lady Anne Lindsay, Carolina, Baroness Nairne and Caroline Norton as late as 1929. By the time the modernists had frowned upon Romanticism only to be corrected}}
• {{cite journal |last1=Blenkinsopp |first1=E. Leaton |title=St. Thomas, surnamed didymus |quote="Carolina Baroness Nairne" in The Songtresses of Scotland |journal=Notes and Queries |date=February 28, 1880 |volume=6 |issue=9 |page=185 |doi=10.1093/nq/s6-I.9.185e}}
• {{cite journal |title=Supplement To Biblia |journal=Biblia |date=1931 |volume=1 |issue=3 |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/26414566 |issn=2578-1200}}
• {{cite book |editor1-last=Birch |editor1-first=Dinah |title=The Oxford Companion to English Literature |chapter=Nairne, Carolina, Baroness (1766–1845) |date=2009 |edition=7th |chapter-url=https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100221601 |publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=9780192806871}}
• {{cite book |last1=Drabble |first1=Margaret |author1-link=Margaret Drabble |editor1-last=Stringer |editor1-first=Jenny |editor2-last=Hahn |editor2-first=Daniel |title=Concise Oxford Companion to English Literature |date=2007 |publisher=Oxford University Press |edition=3rd |quote=Nairne, Carolina, Baroness (née Oliphant) (1766-1845)}}
• {{cite journal |last1=Kaul |first1=Suvir |title=Recent Studies in the Restoration and Eighteenth Century |journal=SEL Studies in English Literature 1500-1900 |date=June 2021 |volume=61 |issue=3 |pages=519–560 |doi=10.1353/sel.2021.a903394 |quote=Christian also features Carolina Oliphant, the Baroness Nairne, who followed Burns's antiquarianism and produced songs of the Jacobite cause, which included tackling its difficult effects on women's lives.}}
• {{cite journal |last1=McGuirk |first1=Carol |title=The Scots Musical Museum. Vols. 2 and 3 of The Oxford Edition of the Works of Robert Burns |journal=The Wordsworth Circle |date=Autumn 2018 |volume=49 |issue=4 |pages=194-201 |issn=0043-8006 |oclc=55943246 |quote=ľn his work with the Museum, Burns saw himself as a bard, not a brand; and he thought of the Museum less as a showcase for product placement than as a hideout. Carolina Oliphant (later in life, Baroness Nairne) played a similar game of hide and seek with her disguised handwriting and faux signatures such as "Mrs. Bogan of Bogan" ("B of B" when she decided to go gender-neutral)}}
• {{cite journal |last1=Davis |first1=Leith |title=Robert Burns and Cultural Authority |journal=Criticism |date=Winter 1999 |volume=41 |issue=1 |pages=135-140 |issn=0011-1589 |quote=Similar controversy surrounds "The Land o' the Leal," which was attributed to Burns but is now recognized as the work of Carolina Oliphant, Lady (or Baroness) Nairne.}}
• {{cite journal |author1=Witcher, Heather Bozant |title=Victorian Women Poets |journal=Victorian Poetry |date=Fall 2021 |volume=59 |issue=3 |pages=1-6 |doi=10.1353/vp.2021.0016 |issn=0042-5206 |quote=Carolina Nairne's "Caller Herrin" demonstrates the popular song's role in revising the stereotypes of Scottish fisherwomen. Likening Baroness Nairne to Walter Scott, Stapleton explores the lyric and its influences on contemporary writers, musicians, and photographers to argue that Nairne's depiction of the Newhaven working-class women revises the "comic and histrionic stereotypes" circulating in nineteenth-century song and literary representations}}
• {{cite journal |last1=Dugaw |first1=Dianne |title=On the "Darling Songs" of Poets, Scholars, and Singers: An Introduction |journal=The Eighteenth Century |date=2006 |volume=47 |issue=2/3 |pages=97–113 |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/41467995 |issn=0193-5380 |quote=Robert Burns and Carolina Oliphant, Baroness Nairne, among the most gifted and significant contributors to popular songs in English, reworked the commonplaces to fashion a hybrid "national song" for Scotland that lies somewhere between folk-song and art-song. }}
• {{cite journal |last1=Stapleton |first1=Anne McKee |title=Recasting Scottish Fisherwomen in Song: Baroness Nairne’s Caller Herrin’ |journal=Women's Writing |date=October 2020 |volume=27 |issue=4 |pages=484–497 |doi=10.1080/09699082.2020.1776003}}
• {{cite journal |last1=McAulay |first1=Karen E |title=Minstrels of the Celtic Nations: Metaphors in Early Nineteenth-Century Celtic Song Collections |journal=Fontes Artis Musicae |date=2012 |volume=59 |issue=1 |pages=25–38 |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/42765545 |issn=0015-6191}}
• {{cite journal |last1=Dougal |first1=Josephine |title=Popular Scottish Song Traditions at Home (and Away) |journal=Folklore |date=2011 |volume=122 |issue=3 |pages=283–307 |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/41306603 |issn=0015-587X}}

{{hr}}

;Book sources

• {{cite book | editor1-last=Stephen | editor1-first=Leslie |editor1-link= Leslie Stephen| editor2-last=Lee | editor2-first=Sidney | editor2-link=Sidney Lee |title=Dictionary of National Biography |title-link=Dictionary of National Biography |date=1937-1938 |publisher=Oxford University Press |pages=[https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofnati0014geor/page/22/mode/2up 23-27] |volume=XIV |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofnati0014geor/page/22/mode/2up |chapter=Chapter: N |quote=Nairne, Carolina, Baroness Nairne (1766-1845), that year, 1822, George IV visited Scotland and on the invitation of Sir Walter Scott, interested himself in the fallen Jacobite adherents. The result was the bill of 17 June 1824 which restored them to their birthright. Major Nairne thus became a peer (being the fifth Lord Nairne of Nairne, Perthshire), and his wife was thenceforth known as Baroness Nairne. Nairne, Sir Robert, of Strathord, first Baron Nairne (1600-1683), by Charles II he was appointed one of the lords of session, 1 June 1661, receiving also the honour of knighthood; and on 11 January 1671 he was appointed one of the court of justiciary. On 23 January 1681 he was created a peer of Scotland by the title of Baron Nairne to himself for life ...}}
• {{cite book | last=Anderson | first=William |author-link=William Anderson (Scottish writer) | title=The Scottish Nation: Or, The Surnames, Families, Literature, Honours, and Biographical History of the People of Scotland | publisher=A. Fullarton & Company| year=1877 |volume=3 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Bp-uP3hDnVgC&pg=PA235|quote=Nairne, Baron, a title in the Scottish peerage, conferred in 1681 on Robert Nairne of Strathord ... William Murray Nairne, the younger son, born in 1757, was assistant inspector-general of barracks in Scotland, and a major-general in the army. The title was restored to him by act of parliament 17th June 1824.}}
• {{cite book |last1=Masson |first1=David |author1-link=David Masson |title=Edinburgh Sketches & Memories |date=1892 |publisher=Adam and Charles Black |location=London |url=https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/71958/pg71958.txt |chapter=Lady Wardlaw And The Baroness Nairne |quote=During the visit of George IV. to Edinburgh in 1822, Scott took occasion to suggest to him that the restoration of the attainted Jacobite families to their titles would be a graceful and popular act of his reign, and the consequence was a Bill for the purpose which passed Parliament and received the royal assent in 1824. Thus, at the age of sixty-seven, Major Nairne became Baron Nairne of Nairne in Perthshire, and his wife, at the age of eight-and-fifty, Baroness Nairne.}}
• {{cite book |last1=Anderson |first1=William |title=Model Women |date=1870 |publisher=Hodder & Stoughton |location=London |page=166 |url=https://archive.org/details/modelwomen00ande/page/166/mode/2up |quote=Many lovers had sought in vain the hand of Miss Carolina Oliphant, but on June the 6th, 1806, she married her maternal cousin William Murray Nairne, who was Inspector General of Barracks in Scotland, and held the rank of major in the army. His hereditary title was Baron Nairne, but it was one of the titles attainted by the rebellion. In 1822, George the Fourth visited Scotland ... which led to the restoration of the peerage to her husband. At all events, in 1824, the attainder was removed by Act of Parliament, and the title of his fathers bestowed on Major Nairne.}}
• {{cite book | last=Lamont-Brown | first=Raymond |author-link=Raymond Lamont-Brown | title=Famous Scots |chapter=Carolina, Baroness Nairne (1766-1845) | publisher=Chambers | location=Edinburgh, Scotland | year=1992 | isbn=978-0-550-20070-9 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KfSG0AEACAAJ | quote=She married in 1806 her second cousin, Major William Murray Nairne (1757-1830), who received the previously forfeited title of 5th Baron Nairne in 1824 | page=[https://archive.org/details/famousscots0000lamo/page/52/mode/2up 52] }}
• {{cite book |editor=Mair, Robert H. | title=Debrett's Peerage, Baronetage, Knightage, and Companionage | publisher=Dean & Son |location=London |type=All Persons Bearing Hereditary or Courtesy Titles |edition=Royal | year=1884 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Vlo-AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA503| page=503|quote=William Murray, 5th Baron, restored to the family honours by Act of Parliament 1824 }}
• {{cite book | last=Claghorn | first=Charles Eugene | title=Women Composers and Songwriters: A Concise Biographical Dictionary |chapter=Nairne, Carolina Oliphant, Baroness (1766-1845) |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/womencomposershy00clag/page/176/mode/2up | publisher=Scarecrow Press | year=1984 | isbn=0-8108-1680-6 | page=176 |quote=She married a Jacobite, Major William Nairne in 1806, who became the 5th Baron Nairne in 1824. }}
• {{cite book | editor=Dabundo, Laura |author=Jurich, Marilyn | title=Encyclopedia of Romanticism: Culture in Britain, 1780s-1830s | publisher=Taylor & Francis | year=2009 | isbn=978-1-135-23234-4 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=QrSNAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT573| page=573 |quote=In 1806, Oliphant married her second cousin, Major William Murray Nairne, who was restored to his barony in 1824. }}
• {{cite book | last=Rogers | first=Charles |author-link=Charles Rogers (author) | title=The Scottish Minstrel: The Songs of Scotland Subsequent to Burns, with Memoirs of the Poets | publisher=W.P. Nimmo | series=The Edinburgh Library of Standard Authors | year=1885 | chapter=Carolina, Baroness Nairne |chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=2-8QAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA57 |quote=By an Act of Parliament, which received the royal sanction on the 17th June 1824, Major Nairne was restored to his rank in the peerage, and the subject of this notice became the Baroness Nairne. }}
• {{cite book | author=Merriam-Webster |author-link=Merriam-Webster | title=Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of Literature | publisher=Merriam-Webster | series=Academic OneFile | year=1995 | isbn=978-0-87779-042-6 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ttSufPA-AwIC |quote=Nairne, Carolina, Baroness Nairne of Nairne, original surname Oliphant (b. Aug. 16, 1766, Gask, Perth, Scot.—d. Oct. 26, 1845, Gask) Scottish songwriter and poet}}
• {{cite book |title=Carolina Nairne, Baroness Nairne |date=March 2024 |publisher=Encyclopaedia Britannica |series=Britannica Biographies |via=MasterFILE Complete |quote=Carolina Nairne, Baroness Nairne, née Oliphant, (born Aug. 16, 1766, Gask, Perth, Scot.—died Oct. 26, 1845, Gask), was a Scottish songwriter and laureate of Jacobitism}}
• {{cite magazine |title=The End Of An Old Song |magazine=The Leisure Hour |date=January 1903 |volume=52 |page=259 |url=https://archive.org/details/sim_leisure-hour-an-illustrated-magazine-for-home-reading_1903-01_52/page/258/mode/2up |location=London |quote=But the crowning glory has been lent to Gask from Carolina Oliphant ... She was married to William Murray Nairne of the British Army, who in 1824 became Baron Nairne.}}
• {{cite book | last=Tytler | first=Sarah | last2=Watson | first2=Jean L. | title=The Songstresses of Scotland | publisher=Strahan & Co. |location=London | year=1871 | chapter=Carolina Baroness Nairne |chapter-url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lady_Grisell_Baillie_Jean_Adam_Mrs_Cockb/WxkkVF9nWCwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=RA1-PA108&printsec=frontcover}}
• {{cite book | editor=Sargent, Epes |editor-link=Epes Sargent (poet) |chapter=Carolina, Baroness Nairne | title=Harper's Cyclopædia of British and American Poetry | publisher=Harper & Brothers |location=New York | year=1881 | chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=UzRxAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA270| page=270}}
• {{cite book | last=Graeme | first=Louisa Grace | title=Or and Sable: A Book of the Graemes and Grahams | publisher=William Brown |location=Edinburgh | year=1903 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=sJ7WWlAmGnoC&pg=PA238-IA3| page=238}}
• {{cite book | title=The Caledonian |chapter=Scottish Music and Song |author=Thompson, Charles W.| publisher=Caledonian Publishing Company | volume=9 | year=1909 | chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=NeERAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA470 | page=470}}
• {{cite book | editor1=Garnett, Richard | editor2=Vallée, Léon | editor3=Brandl, Aolis | title=The Universal Anthology: A Collection of the Best Literature, Ancient, Mediaeval and Modern, with Biographical and Explanatory Notes | publisher=Clarke Company | volume=20 | year=1899 | chapter=Poems of Lady Nairne| chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=338PAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA31 |page=31 }}
• {{cite book | last=Dole | first=N. H. | last2=Morgan | first2=F. | last3=Ticknor | first3=C. | author4=International Bibliophile Society | title=The Roxburghe Library of Classics| publisher=Roxburghe Press |volume=21 | year=1904 |chapter=The Lass O' Gowrie| chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=OjBOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7319}}
• {{cite book | last=Sage | first=Lorna | last2=Greer | first2=Germaine | last3=Showalter | first3=Elaine | title=The Cambridge Guide to Women's Writing in English | publisher=Cambridge University Press | year=1999 | isbn=978-0-521-66813-2 |chapter=Nairne [nee Oliphant], Carolina, Baroness 1766-1845 | chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=NB59uc9_ss8C&pg=PA460 | page=460}}
• {{cite journal |editor1-last=Magill |editor1-first=Frank N. |editor2-last=Tilghman |editor2-first=Tench Francis |title=Charlie is my darling, the young Chevalier |journal=Magill’s Quotations in Context |url=https://archive.org/details/magillsquotation0001fran/page/n7/mode/2up |date=1969 |volume=1 |page=[https://archive.org/details/magillsquotation0001fran/page/138/mode/2up 138] |publisher=Salem Press |location=New York |quote=Author: Carolina Oliphant, Baroness Nairne (1766-1845): Baroness Nairne was born in Scotland at Gask, Perthshire, the daughter of an ardent Jacobite who named her Carolina in memory of Bonnie Prince Charlie.}}
• {{cite book | last=Fullard | first=Joyce | title=British Women Poets, 1660-1800: An Anthology |chapter=Patriotism and War | publisher=Whitston Publishing Company | year=1990 | isbn=978-0-87875-370-3 |pages=359-384 |quote=Nairne, Carolina Oliphant Nairne, Baroness, 1766-1845 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=LiZaAAAAMAAJ}}
• {{cite book | last=Barbour | first=Freeland | title=The White Rose of Gask: The Life and Songs of Carolina Oliphant, Lady Nairne | publisher=Birlinn |location=Scotland | year=2019 | isbn=978-1-78885-255-5 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=FoK0DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT10 |quote= And thus Carolina Oliphant, later to become and be better known as Lady or Baroness Nairne and author of some of Scotland's best-loved songs. After much lobbying, led latterly by Sir Walter Scott, the attainted titles were restored to their owners and Major William became Lord Nairne and Carolina his Baroness. It is worth noting that William was honoured by a Bill exclusively for himself presented to Parliament by the Earl of Liverpool, who was Prime Minister at the time, for the restoration to him of his Grandfather's titles.| page=10}}

{{hr}}

;News sources

• {{cite news |title=Scotland, Magistrates of Edinburgh |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/aberdeen-journal-and-general-advertiser/167493185/ |work=Aberdeen Journal, and General Advertiser for the North of Scotland |location=Aberdeen, Scotland |date=November 12, 1845 |quote=We have to record the demise of Carolina, Baroness Nairne, who expired on Monday the 27th, the deceased Baroness was third daughter of Mr. Lawrence Oliphant, and married in June 1806, William, fifth Lord Nairne. |type=death notice |page=4}}
• {{cite news |title=The Baroness Nairne |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/ariss-birmingham-gazette-etc-baroness/167649556/ |work=Aris's Birmingham Gazette |date=February 27, 1869 |quote=In 1824, George IV restored her husband, Major Nairne, to his place in the peerage as Baron of Nairne |page=7}}
• {{cite news |title=The Songestresses of Scotland |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-morning-post-baroness-carolina/167492472/ |work=The Morning Post |date=June 1, 1871 |page=3}}
• {{cite news |last1=Stoddard |first1=Richard Henry |title=Lady Nairne |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-independent-baroness-nairne/167404911/ |work=The Independent |issue=1172 |date=August 31, 1893 |page=4}}
• {{cite news |title=Literary Notes |work=The Times |issue=34351 |date=August 24, 1894 |page=4 |quote=Messrs. Oliphant, Anderson, and Ferrier announce a sketch of the life of Caroline, Baroness Nairne, author of The Land O' The Leal.}}
• {{cite news |last1=Gray |first1=Andrew R. |title=Scottish Minstrelsy |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/hull-evening-news-baroness-carolina/167494498/ |work=Hull Evening News |date=May 23, 1895 |page=25}}
• {{cite news |title=A Modest Genius |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/international-gazette-baron-nairne/167589729/ |work=International Gazette |date=July 3, 1897 |location=New York |page=6}}
• {{cite news |title=Gems From The Poets |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-baltimore-sun-baroness-carolina/167491792/ |work=The Baltimore Sun |date=August 9, 1903 |page=7}}
• {{cite news |title=Stuart and Jacobite Relics |work=The Times |issue=37329 |date=February 29, 1904 |page=14 |quote=The old pictures include portraits of Prince Charles Edward, Henry Nairne, Carolina Baroness Nairne, members of the families of Steuart of Dalguise.}}
• {{cite news |title=From The Golden Books |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/springfield-weekly-republican-baroness-c/167491524/ |work=Springfield Weekly Republican |date=October 3, 1912 |page=7}}
• {{cite news |title=Land O' The Leal |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/lewistown-daily-news-land-o-leal/167586836/ |work=Lewistown Daily News |date=June 17, 1912 |location=Montana |page=3}}
• {{cite news |title=The Scottish Barony of Nairne |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-toronto-star-scottish-barony/167494720/ |work=The Toronto Star |date=July 11, 1921 |page=4}}
• {{cite news |author1=G. J. D. |title=Land O' The Leal |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/times-colonist-baroness-carolina/167491986/ |work=Times Colonist |date=November 12, 1932 |page=7}}
• {{cite news |title=Baroness Nairne |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/evening-express-baroness-nairne/167590007/ |work=Evening Express |date=July 24, 1934 |location=England |page=3}}
• {{cite news |title=A Woman Who Kept A Secret |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-courier-mail-baroness-carolina/167493944/ |work=The Courier-Mail |date=May 11, 1935 |page=12}}
• {{cite news |author1=B. W. |title=This Weeks Scottish Anniversary, Lady Nairne Born 16th July 1766 |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-callander-advertiser-and-killin-time/167588869/ |work=The Callander Advertiser and Killin Times |date=July 18, 1936 |location=Scotland |page=8 |quote=Baron Nairne, who had recovered the ancient Barony of his family in 1824, died in 1830.}}
• {{cite news |title=Famous and Historical Personages In Nairne-Lineage |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/santa-barbara-news-press-baroness-caroli/167492870/ |work=Santa Barbara News-Press |date=March 20, 1938 |page=9}}
• {{cite news |last1=Murdo |first1=J. |title=Scottish Songs, Some Famous Women Writers |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/dumfries-and-galloway-standard-scottish/167587099/ |work=Dumfries and Galloway Standard |date=February 21, 1940 |location=Scotland |page=7}}
• {{cite news |title=The White Rose Of Gask |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/blairgowrie-advertiser-and-east-perthshi/167533172/ |work=Blairgowrie Advertiser and East Perthshire News-Review |date=October 19, 1945 |page=2}}
• {{cite news |title=The Lost Chord |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/voice-lost-chord/167586597/ |work=The Voice |date=July 27, 1946 |location=Australia |page=3}}
• {{cite news |last1=Torbert |first1=A. E. |title=Flower of Strathearn |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-strathearn-herald-baroness-carolina/167493606/ |work=The Strathearn Herald |location=Scotland |date=August 6, 1966 |page=6}}
• {{cite news |last1=Alexander |first1=Dick |title=Echoes of Auld, Edinburgh |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-san-francisco-examiner-edinburgh/167587390/ |work=The San Francisco Examiner |date=November 9, 1980 |page=1}}
• {{cite news |title=Anniversaries |work=The Independent |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-independent-baroness-carolina/167495017/ |date=October 26, 1993 |quote=Deaths: Carolina Oliphant (Baroness Nairne), ballad writer, 1845}}
• {{cite news |title=Carolina Nairne, Baroness Nairne |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/calgary-herald-baroness-carolina/167492176/ |work=Calgary Herald |date=August 16, 1999 |page=A9}}
• {{cite news |title=Countdown 2000 Series |url=https://www.proquest.com/newspapers/countdown-2000-series/docview/244769481/se-2 |work=Calgary Herald |date=August 16, 1999 |page=A9 |quote=Carolina Nairne, Baroness Nairne (1766-1845), born at Gask, Perth, Scotland; died there Oct. 26, 1845, when the Jacobite families had their titles restored in 1824, at the urging of Walter Scott, she became baroness as wife of the 5th Baron Nairne}}
• {{cite news |last1=MacPherson |first1=Hamish |title=The cultural legacy Lady Nairne: the ‘Flower of Strathearn’ |url=https://www.thenational.scot/news/18044666.carolina-oplihants-influence-scottish-culture-second-burns/ |work=The National |date=November 19, 2019 |quote=Thanks largely to Sir Walter Scott who knew them well, Nairne’s family title was restored in 1824 by King George IV, and she became Baroness Nairne.}}
• {{cite news |last1=Carragher |first1=Kathleen |title=Burns Night: Lady Carolina Nairne's poignant work mistaken for bard's |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-64355891 |work=BBC |date=January 25, 2023 |quote=Carolina left Perth for Edinburgh when she married her second cousin, Maj William Nairne, becoming a baroness.}}

{{hr}}

;Other sources

• {{cite web |author1=((The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica)) |title=Carolina Nairne, Baroness Nairne |url=https://www.britannica.com/biography/Carolina-Nairne-Baroness-Nairne-of-Nairne |website=Encyclopædia Britannica}}
• {{cite web |title=Nairne, Carolina (1766–1845) |url=https://www.encyclopedia.com/women/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/nairne-carolina-1766-1845 |website=Encyclopedia.com |department=Women in World History: A Biographical Encyclopedia}}
• {{cite web |title=Carolina Oliphant, Baroness Nairne, 1766 - 1845. Songwriter by Sir John Watson Gordon |url=https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/3372 |website=National Galleries of Scotland}}
• {{cite web |title=Nairne, Carolina Oliphant, Baroness, 1766-1845 |url=https://id.worldcat.org/fast/54611/ |website=Faceted Application of Subject Terminology}}
• {{cite web |title=Nairne, Carolina, Baroness |url=https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/Nairne,_Carolina,_Baroness |publisher=Encyclopædia Britannica |date=1911}}
• {{cite web |title=Nairne, Carolina Oliphant Nairne, Baroness, 1766-1845 |url=https://www.proquest.com/encyclopedias-reference-works/nairne-carolina-oliphant-baroness-1766-1845/docview/2137915148/se-2 |publisher=ProQuest Biographies |date=2013 |quote=Carolina Oliphant (1766-1845; known as Carolina Nairne, Baroness Nairne, and Lady Naire after her marriage), Scottish poet, is remembered as the author of songs on Scotland and the Jacobite cause}}

{{hr}}

;Wikipedia article

• Lord Nairne - Sir Robert Nairne of Strathord (c. 1620–1683), a supporter of Charles II, was created Baron Nairne in 1681 ... William Murray Nairne (1757–1830), who, being restored to the barony of Nairne in 1824, became the 5th baron. He married Carolina, the daughter of Laurence Oliphant (one of the foremost supporters of the Jacobite cause), and a well known Scottish songwriter.{{EB1911|noprescript=1|wstitle=Nairne, Carolina, Baroness |volume=19|pages=154–155}}

{{hr}}

;Primary sources

From the National Records of Scotland – Trust Disposition and Settlement of Caroline Nairne (The Right Honourable Caroline Baroness Nairne)

• [https://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/20241128123234mp_/https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//images/hall-of-fame/nairne-caroline-will-image-page2.jpg Document one]
• [https://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/20241128123234mp_/https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//images/hall-of-fame/nairne-caroline-will-image-page3.jpg Document two]
• [https://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/20241128123234mp_/https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//images/hall-of-fame/nairne-caroline-will-image-page4.jpg Document three]
• [https://web.archive.org/web/20211020123641/https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//research/famous-scots/nairne-caroline-will-transcript.pdf Plain text format] (easier to read)

Carolina's sister published a posthumous collection of Carolina's verse and song, entitled "Lays of Strathearn, by Caroline Baroness Nairne" where she was publicly identified as the author of 87 songs and poems.

• [https://web.archive.org/web/20200812100303/https://digital.nls.uk/special-collections-of-printed-music/archive/105827400 Lays of Strathearn, by Caroline Baroness Nairne] via the National Library of Scotland

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• Option A (no note) – Interesting discussion, but this boils down to sources. The sources say she was also known as Carolina Baroness Nairne. There hasn't really be any sourcing provided to dispel this fact. In light of that reality, the article should follow sourcing. Nemov (talk) 13:17, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
• Option B I think most readers wont understand the difference, and those that do will know that there isn't much of a distinction. This seems very much footnote material to me. CarroGil (talk) 16:38, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
• :The note version suggests that her husband wasn't a baron, which is not true, as evidenced by the strength of the sources verifying he held that title. See also MOS:EDITORIAL - words such as although may imply a relationship where none exists; unduly calling the validity of the first statement into question while giving undue weight to the credibility of the second. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:02, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option A since the refs can be seen by hovering over the refs conveniently and avoids source clutter being there all the time. Can WP:CITEBUNDLE if needed. Ramos1990 (talk) 05:43, 5 April 2025 (UTC)