Talk:Chao Ratchabut Wongtawan Na Chiang Mai

{{requested move/dated|Chao Ratchabut (Wongtawan Na Chiang Mai)}}

:Chao Ratchabut Wongtawan Na Chiang Mai → {{no redirect|Chao Ratchabut (Wongtawan Na Chiang Mai)}} – "Chao Ratchabut" is an honorific title, and Wongtawan Na Chiang Mai is the individual's name. The use of parentheses helps clarify this distinction, aligning with naming conventions used for other historical figures in similar contexts. Inner789 (talk) 08:54, 14 May 2025 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Lion7410 (talk) 01:56, 16 May 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. [[User:CanonNi]] (talk • contribs) 14:30, 23 May 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 12:23, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

• Support – The title should change to Chao Ratchabut (Wongtawan Na Chiengmai) instead because the surname 'ณ เชียงใหม่' is written in English as "Na Chiengmai" not "Na Chiang Mai". Lion7410 (talk) 01:56, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
• :After researching sources, you are right. The surname "ณ เชียงใหม่" is written in English as "Na Chiengmai", not "Na Chiang Mai". Therefore, the title should be moved to Chao Ratchabut (Wongtawan Na Chiengmai). Inner789 (talk) 02:06, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
• Comment: Generally, we can't assume that the same spelling is used for all members of a family, and there are plenty of examples where the same Thai surname is spelled differently by different people with the name. While "na Chiengmai" is the spelling granted by King Vajiravudh[http://www.phyathaipalace.org/%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%AA%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%B8%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%8A%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%99/nameH.html], this is not always followed. Unfortunately "Wongtawan na Chiengmai" turns up zero uses in reliable sources in Google web, books and scholar searches. The sources that exist are few and far between, and inconsistent. For example:
• Chao Ratchabut (Wongtawan Na Chiang Mai) – Chiang Mai University Library [https://lannainfo.library.cmu.ac.th/en_picturelanna/detail_picturelanna.php?picture_id=679], Chiang Mai National Museum[http://www.virtualmuseum.finearts.go.th/chiangmai/index.php/en/virtual-model-360/141-buddha-statue-in-subduing-mara-4.html]
• Cao Ratchabut Wongtawan na Chiang Mai – SEAS journal[https://englishkyoto-seas.org/2022/04/vol-11-no-1-sarassawadee-ongsakul-and-volker-grabowsky/]
• Hudson's Guide to Chiang Mai and the North (1973)[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Hudson_s_Guide_to_Chiang_Mai_and_the_Nor/oKxwAAAAMAAJ] is inconsistent, having "Prince Rajabutr Wongtawan na Chiang Mai" in one instance and "Chao Rajabut Wongtawan na Chiang Mai" in another.

:It appears that the majority of (the very few existing) sources appear to use "na Chiang Mai", which would agree with the usual practice on Wikipedia to use RTGS by default when there is no established spelling. But given the scant English-language coverage, one could perhaps argue for following King Vajiravudh's spelling, as the only contemporary source available. --Paul_012 (talk) 15:54, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::I agree that Thai surnames are often spelled differently by different members of the same family. However, in this case, I would argue in favor of using "na Chiengmai" or "Na Chiengmai", considering that Chao Wongtawan was born during the reign of King Chulalongkorn and lived through the reign of King Vajiravudh. Therefore, we may assume that he might have used the spelling "na Chiengmai" or "Na Chiengmai", in line with King Vajiravudh’s spelling. But, I’m still uncertain whether to use the lowercase "na Chiengmai" or the capitalized "Na Chiengmai." Lion7410 (talk) 01:40, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I don't have a preference either way, but just to make things clear for the closer, I'd support either Chao Ratchabut (Wongtawan Na Chiang Mai) or Chao Ratchabut (Wongtawan Na Chiengmai) over the current title. --Paul_012 (talk) 12:41, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:Note: WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Thailand, and WikiProject Royalty and Nobility have been notified of this discussion. [[User:CanonNi]] (talk • contribs) 14:30, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

• Comment to potential closer: I believe there's already consensus to move, with Chao Ratchabut (Wongtawan Na Chiengmai) slightly preferred over Chao Ratchabut (Wongtawan Na Chiang Mai). --Paul_012 (talk) 10:17, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:Note: WikiProject Thailand and WikiProject Royalty and Nobility have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 12:22, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

:Relisting comment: Relisting as this was a contested technical in order to seek a fuller discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 12:23, 31 May 2025 (UTC)