Talk:Christianity in Iran

A 2015 study estimates between 100,000 and 500,000 Christian believers from a Muslim background living in Iran, most of the evangelical Christians. - this sounds like a mere fantasy for anyone engaged in Iranian studies. Such claims come from missionary organizations whose reliability is highly questionable. --MehrdadFR (talk) 18:15, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

:The article also doesn't say that; it has not said that since the 19th of October, when I actually read the associated cite (which appears in fact to be a serious piece of research), updated the sentence to reflect what the study said, and removed some questionable claims from missionary organisations. So why are you complaining about text that isn't even in the article? Pinkbeast (talk) 04:52, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

::I was indeed referring to older version (I even made a small mistake when edited), but even in this way it's questionable and requires more serious studies. As far as I know, there are only a several thousands of protestant Christians in Iran, more then ten times less then the lowest claims by those missionary organizations. Claims about apostasy are removed because it's utter nonsense without any basis in Iranian law or [http://www.sid.ir/En/Journal/ViewPaper.aspx?ID=440998 Shia Imami (Twelver) tradition]. I'm well aware there are tons of articles (mainly non-professional) which claims otherwise, but it's factually wrong. --MehrdadFR (talk) 03:52, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

:::"As far as you know" is not the basis on which citing is done; it is not as if you are in a position to count all the Christians in Iran. The paper cited (which I've actually read, unlike you) appears, again, to be serious work, and not simply to take the claims of missionaries at face value. Likewise it is not sufficient for you to claim something is "utter nonsense"; I have cited Der Spiegel on the subject of apostacy, and would have no difficulty in producing more cites. What you should do is produce cites that support your position (note that given the extensive state censorship and repression, a source from Iran that says everything is fine cannot be trusted); what you are doing is working up to yet another block for edit warring. Pinkbeast (talk) 10:10, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

::::The fact is that you "can not trust Iranian source" (despite it's scholarly work) because you think there's "the extensive state censorship and repression" (your personal prejudicial opinion), is not the basis on which citing is done. Again, there are academic publications regarding to the subject, and there are also all Iranian laws available online. Regarding mine "as far as you know", I forgot to add "...from serious studies, books, and official data". Vast majority of Christians from censuses are Armenian and Assyrian, while several thousands others are Catholic and Protestant. --MehrdadFR (talk) 00:31, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

::::P.S. I just found in Sanasarian:2000 the number of Protestants are "a few thousand", with estimates giving from 5,000 up to 15,000. I also found in Afshari:2001 (a dissident) that there's no any law regarding religious conversion, but he himself claims that Iranian government sometimes used "extra-judicial" methods for apostasy cases, although they denied everything. If issue is to be addressed in article, then everything should be included: (1) No laws, (2) No religious basis, (3) Official denials, (4) "According to Afshari...". I'm sure you can find plenty of citations more but Wikipedia is not a news aggregator, you can find the same for flat Earth or "no internet in Iran". Be a little bit more constructive next time, happy new year and greetings from Tehran. --MehrdadFR (talk) 01:32, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::It is entirely straightforward to show extensive state censorship and repression; Amnesty document it routinely.

:::::Not according to Afshari: according to Der Spiegel, a perfectly good source. Deal with it. Pinkbeast (talk) 08:59, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::It's obvious you're trying to force POV, so conversation is over. --MehrdadFR (talk) 13:02, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::You cannot simply remove cited material because you don't like it. Have you learned nothing from your previous blocks? Pinkbeast (talk) 13:08, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::You should seriously study more about WP:Neutral point of view and WP:Identifying reliable sources. Beside, your threats are laughable. --MehrdadFR (talk) 13:57, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

This [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christianity_in_Iran&type=revision&diff=818251082&oldid=818246990 edit] was done after the above discussion. I do not think it is helpful.

"Conversions have been the subject of several controversies" is useless verbiage. The paragraph's text serves to establish the issue.

"it has been reported in the Western press" is pure weasel wording because the editor doesn't like what the source said. Der Spiegel didn't say that it has been reported in the Western press that apostates can face the death penalty; Der Spiegel said that apostates can face the death penalty. We should write what the source says.

Additional cites are available and could be added. http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-search-post.cfm?country=Iran - "Apostasy is also punishable by death under shariah, which is enforceable by domestic courts". https://www.fidh.org/IMG/pdf/Rapport_Iran_final.pdf - "judges have invoked the said Article 214 to mete out the death sentence in many apostasy cases on the basis of the views of Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the IRI".

Hence a simple statement that apostates can face the death penalty should be restored.

"Iranian officials repeatedly rejected such claims" - that a murderous regime like Iran denies many of its own murders is not remarkable. Unless there is some reason to suppose their assertion can be proven, it should be removed.

"the Islamic Civil Code was silent on apostasy" - other cites explain how apostates may nevertheless face the death penalty.

"According to Reza Afshari, the Judiciary still provided legal space for the clerical judges to apply traditional Islamic law, not codified in state laws, so the crime was punishable by fines, lashing, and prison terms, leaving it to the Islamic judges to impose the death penalty if they desired."

This literally says that judges _can_ impose the death penalty.

"According to the Iranian scholars ..." - this sentence is a pointless diversion, serving only as a smokescreen over the well-cited fact that apostates can in fact face the death penalty. It hardly seems pertinent to the point at hand and hence should be removed.

"insisting that Nadarkhani has a history of committing violent crimes ..." - it does not seem necessary to so expand upon the regime's denials (especially not by direct cut and paste from the source). The regime is not one we would typically regard as a reliable source on the probity of its own actions, and hence it is not helpful to give undue weight to their self-justification. A simple statement that they have denied the claims would suffice. (The source added is useful for this purpose and should be retained.)

"Hence the statistics of Iranian Christians omit an unknown number of secret conversions." Now, I hear the cry of synthesis coming, but this does follow fairly obviously from the fact that apostates can face oppression and death. It could be altered to "Hence, reliable statistics on the number of Iranian Christians are not available.", cited to https://www.theguardian.com/world/iran-blog/2014/may/12/iran-converted-christians-sanctuary-germany-muslim - "The underground nature of the Christian conversion movement has made numbers impossible to determine accurately". (This cite also states that apostates can face the death penalty.)

(There are a lot of American Christian evangelist Websites that blithely assert there are loads, but I don't think they're remotely reliable sources either...)

"After the Iranian Revolution, Christians in Iran were not allowed to proselytize or evangelize Muslims" - this could stay removed; we are more concerned with the current state of affairs, anyway.

"There are some officially recognized ethnically Iranian Christian communities, as the descendants of Muslims who converted to Protestant Christianity in 19th century were exempted from the laws passed in 1979" - a simple "citation needed" would be more appropriate than removal of this material. Pinkbeast (talk) 13:03, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

:[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3APinkbeast%2Fsandbox&type=revision&diff=822273839&oldid=822272704 This] is a prepared edit in my sandbox incorporating my proposals above, to make the intention clear. Pinkbeast (talk) 12:24, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

::Your prepared edit appears good to me, but it would help to briefly summarize what remains at issue here. Jzsj (talk) 11:18, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

:::If I make it I expect to get reverted immediately, so I'm endeavouring to establish that there is support for my proposal in the hope that that reversion won't happen. Sorry for the delay in replying - I've been away from Wikipedia for a week. Pinkbeast (talk) 16:02, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

:::: I Think the prepared edit looks good. Fusion2186 (talk) 21:11, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

----

: The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.