Talk:Cinco Ranch, Texas#Recent changes to article about a planned community

I question whether the Randolph Foster listed on the Cinco Ranch entry is the same as the Randolph Foster to which the linked article refers.--Rpclod (talk) 16:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

• Sarnoff, Nancy. "[http://blogs.chron.com/primeproperty/2010/09/cinco_ranch_expands.html Cinco Ranch expands]." Houston Chronicle. September 29, 2010.

WhisperToMe (talk) 07:32, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

This needs to be pared down a lot. Lists of amenities in every section, and the tone is that of an ad or website for the community. Wiki pages are not intended to be such. That whole section could be pared down to a single sentence like "The various sections of the Cinco Ranch master-planned community offer a variety of amenities including x,y, and z.". This is not encyclopedic or notable content.204.65.34.129 (talk) 21:36, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified {{plural:2|one external link|2 external links}} on Cinco Ranch, Texas. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=751338810 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130911234518/http://factfinder2.census.gov to http://factfinder2.census.gov
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130911234518/http://factfinder2.census.gov to http://factfinder2.census.gov

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{tlx|Sourcecheck}}).

{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:52, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Cinco Ranch, Texas. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=794407366 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Corrected formatting/usage for http://factfinder2.census.gov/
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://factfinder2.census.gov/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111225220707/http://northwest.hccs.edu/portal/site/northwest/ to http://northwest.hccs.edu/portal/site/northwest/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:59, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

::::Why not just state that the area as defined by the CDP does not include the expensions? There are news articles that list the population of Cinco Ranch the same as the census. I take it that you live in this community? see https://cw39.com/news/money/cinco-ranch-named-one-of-the-20-best-places-to-live-in-the-us-study-finds/ Patapsco913 (talk) 21:56, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Hi Patapsco913, I'd like to talk about your changes to Cinco Ranch, Texas. Cinco Ranch is a planned community but the changes re-introduced an error by conflating it with the CDP of the same name. The Cinco Ranch CDP is about half of the community—visually you can compare the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cinco_Ranch.png map of the community] and [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CincoRanchTXMap.png map of the CDP]. The change removed half a sentence that clarified the distinction between the community and the CDP, and inserted 2020 demographics for only the CDP. The CDP isn't a good reflection of the greater community—most of Cinco Ranch is in Fort Bend County, which is one of the fastest-growing counties in the US and regularly listed the most ethnically diverse in the US, and a smaller part is in Harris County which is similarly diverse, growing, and changing.

There is a way to get demographic information, if racial composition is important for the article, but it is a bit of work and might be considered original research. To do it, you need to identify all the census block groups in both counties for the community, download the data for each, and then combine the data from all of them. I started down this path, then stopped when I thought it was original research and when I realized I could only get ACS 5-Year Estimates for census data at the tract level, and actually needed the more-granular block groups.

I actually reached out to Buaidh last month for guidance about this because fundamentally this is a question about maintaining something Rambot did decades ago, and how to address it now in cases like this where CDP is no longer a meaningful unit for a community that was being planned and developed back then. Here's my question to Buaidh and here's the response.

Hello

I really should've left a note about the CDP versus community on the article's Talk page! Wikipedian-in-Waiting (talk) 18:41, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:Hello, I could create a separate page for the CDP but the name on this page needs to be changed to something like Cinco Ranch (planned community). The map in the header is also incorrect; and the list of CDPs for Texas and template for the CDP link to this page. Be forewarned though that this page will likely be merged again as there are a number of irascible hyper editors who do not like pages such as this (with separate pages for the CDP and the entity...happens a lot with military bases, schools, and planned communities). Is the FIPS code and GNIS ID correct? Probably better to note the discrepancy in the demographics and move the census derived information down out of the top header? Not sure where the map is from you linked. Do you have a legitimate source that we can add? Patapsco913 (talk) 19:29, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::If every CDP has its own wiki article, then yes I guess a new article should be created for the CDP. Currently, Cinco Ranch, Texas is about the planned community of Cinco Ranch and has been since 2005, when a Cinco Ranch (Houston) article that was moved to the Cinco Ranch, Texas stub. The stub was holding information about the CDP to get the article started, but since 20 years ago it's been about the community not the census. If you create the new wiki article for the CDP, you can move the map in the header as well because yes, it's not correct.

::You make an interesting observation, that this is an issue with articles about several types of communities like military bases and other planned communities. Putting data about only part of a community is incorrect. I like your suggestion to create a new article and remove the CDP census data from this one. I think that works like this:

::1. Roll back your changes so that the Demographics section again says this: 'Cinco Ranch first appeared as a census designated place (CDP) in the 2000 U.S. Census, which covers a total area of about 4.9 square miles. However, the Cinco Ranch planned community is now complete at 8,092 acres (12.64 square miles) and 15,098 homes so data specific to the CDP no longer reflects the entire community. The area to the far west of Houston continues to grow and diversify.'

::2. Remove the CDP map in the header.

::3. Check the FIPS code and GNIS ID as you mentioned, and correct them if they are not for the community.

::4. Create a new article named 'Cinco Ranch (CDP)' or similar. In that new article, put the CDP map, the FIPS code and GNIS ID as appropriate, and the 2020 census data of race and ethnicity. If the new article looks a little too stubby, you could also add other information that the census collects for each CDP such as education, housing, education, transportation, employment status and industry.

::5. On the community article, I could link to the CDP article to make sure if a reader was looking for the CDP they find it.

::6. I will add a note on the article's Talk page about the two articles, so that other editors will know about the issue and the two articles.

::Wikipedian-in-Waiting (talk) 20:11, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::(missed one..!)

:::4.5 Redirect the links on list of CDPs for Texas from the community article to the new CDP article, and remove the CDP template from the community article.

:::Wikipedian-in-Waiting (talk) 20:16, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I think you are overthinking this. It is probably better to just explain what is happening in the body of the article: "The census defines the area as a CDP but the community has since grown...." The background info you are adding about the area will just be duplicated at the Cinco Ranch CDP article since it is about the community...not just the census stats; and you need reliable sources for both the map and the area which I do not see (was the area 4.9 sq miles in 2000?). The census is constantly adjusting the areas of CDPs according local custom so you are probably ahead of the game. Better to be creative and incorporate them together. Patapsco913 (talk) 20:34, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::::So, originally it did explain how the CDP is only about half of the community. That's why it's important to undo the changes. The expansion of the community happened in phases (since it is a planned community) and that expansion is outlined in the History section of the article. The References give citations to the Cinco Ranch I and II websites, which have maps, but you can find maps of the community in multiple places including many of the websites cited in the Government and Infrastructure section.

::::I just peeked over there, and I think you moved it to Geography? The Geography section needs to discuss its unique geographical, geological, climate, etc., elements, like the Buffalo Bayou and its channels that flow through the community, the prairie grassland, native animals and birds, things like that, not census data. But I wasn't going to do the Geography until I finished Government and Infrastructure since some of infrastructure is addressing geography....

::::I've been working pretty hard to get this article correct and complete, and was planning on not updating the introduction and info panel until the end. However, I can see that's caused confusion and I don't see a way to discuss half the racial makeup of a community, or even why that would be critical for this article when an article created just for the CDP information is something that we could do. I'm happy to do steps 1–6 if you'd prefer to not do it yourself. I just assumed your interest was in census data of race and ethnicity for US CDPs, so I assumed you'd prefer to take that on yourself?

::::Wikipedian-in-Waiting (talk) 21:02, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{ping|Wikipedian-in-Waiting}} Cool, let's move to the talk page for the page rather than here.

::::::Definitely add the source you used in the map (No one is going to look through all your other sources to find it). Also add the source stating what the new area is rather than the census area. Do we know what is the expanded population? Patapsco913 (talk) 21:14, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::Cinco Ranch is 8,092 acres.

::::::- https://www.chron.com/business/article/katy-s-cinco-ranch-to-see-an-expansion-1716809.php

::::::- https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/newland-and-sekisui-house-form-joint-venture-to-acquire-real-estate-development-projects-in-the-united-states-103996423.html

::::::- https://www.chron.com/neighborhood/katy/news/article/Foster-named-Cinco-Ranch-Realtor-relations-manager-9440247.php

::::::Cinco Ranch's boundaries are larger than the CDP.

::::::- https://www.cincoranch.life/info.php?pnum=35cd1e4c4d043b

::::::- https://www.mycincoranch.com/info.php?pnum=31

::::::Cinco Ranch has 15,098 homes: 8,740 in Cinco Ranch I and 6,358 in Cinco Ranch II. It was built out years ago, so I will need to search archives for news articles and press releases from then. For now:

::::::- https://www.mycincoranch.com/blog.php?view=blog&id=117&ssrch=6,358#sr

::::::- https://www.neighborhoods.com/blog/what-its-like-living-in-cinco-ranch-katy

::::::- https://www.har.com/blog_77854_houston-top-master-planned-community--cinco-ranch

::::::I'm pretty committed to getting and keeping this article accurate. Would you like to create a new article for the CDP, as I thought you were originally suggesting? Or are we at an impasse, and we should request a third opinion with a dispute resolution request? Wikipedian-in-Waiting (talk) 21:50, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::If I create an article for the CDP it will include a lot of the information that you have just added. CDPs are unincorporated communities as defined by the census. You are stating that the community is larger but list no news articles showing what is its current expanded population is. All I can find is articles using the census figures. I am trying to help you out.Patapsco913 (talk) 22:04, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::If it is a community, there must be some population figures for the expanded community (especially since the area expended from 4.9 to 12.6 square miles). I cannot find a news source indicating the new expanded population: all I can find is news articles linking to the census numbers. By leaving this information out, you would be introducing an inaccuracy. Best to add some info regarding the geography size from reliable sources. Patapsco913 (talk) 22:12, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I think my changes pretty much explain that the census numbers do not include the entire community as defined by you and seemingly, a bunch of links to real estate companies, websites, and brokers. News articles seem to use the census population figures provided.

:::::::::: - https://www.newsweek.com/50-best-places-live-america-1580719

:::::::::: - https://cw39.com/news/money/cinco-ranch-named-one-of-the-20-best-places-to-live-in-the-us-study-finds/ Patapsco913 (talk) 22:48, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::I believe that "Best places" articles and the like from nationwide publications scrape their information, uncited, from wikipedia. I can, and have, shown maps and articles that state the geographic boundaries of the community, it's growth over time, and the exact number of homes. Underlying this dispute, though, might be the question of whether Cinco Ranch, Texas is an article about a community, as the article has been since 2005, or if it should be repurposed back to a stub about a CDP.

::::::::::However, I believe what should not happen is to present misleading information. For example, Cinco Ranch is part of Katy ISD and demographic information is available for Katy ISD. It would be incorrect, though, to add that to the article about the Cinco Ranch community because the boundaries of Katy ISD are not the boundaries of the community. The same is true with the CDP.

::::::::::I'm not going to undo your edits because you would likely just undo my undo. I tried to open a dialogue with you, thinking the changes were just a good-faith oversight. I agreed with your initial idea for a second article, and offered to help with that. And yet here we are, still in disagreement. I've asked for a third opinion, so let's both pause and see where that leads. If we can't get a third opinion, or we find ourselves in disagreement with it, then we can progress to the next stage of the dispute resolution process. Agreed?

::::::::::Wikipedian-in-Waiting (talk) 23:09, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I have submitted a request for a third opinion, which you can view at Wikipedia:Third opinion.

:::::::::Wikipedian-in-Waiting (talk) 22:57, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Hey no problem, the items you need to find are some neutral sources that define the boundaries of the community as you describe and not links to real estate websites. A population number for the expanded community would be a start (population figures from news articles only show census numbers). CDPs are unincorporated communities as defined by the census. If what you say is true, there is no reason that the evolution of the community can be mentioned including demographics which I feel I have encapsulated in my edits. Cheers!Patapsco913 (talk)