Talk:Contralto

Constructive suggestions and discussion welcome! The contents of this page are for ongoing discussions. For past discussions please see the archives.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nrswanson (talk • contribs) 08:17, 12 April 2008

How about adding a section for contraltos in other forms than classical/operatic? E.g., Cher, Amanda Marshall (popular), Sarah Vaughan (jazz), etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thulcandra (talk • contribs) 14:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

:*Such lists have been tried before but were ultimately removed on the basis of huge problems with original research, list instability, edit wars, and the fact that popular music tends to use the word alto (a term which is not synonymous with contralto as it is often used to refer to mezzos in popular music). Further, independent lists on popular singers have been deleted multiple times in AFD rulings, and the problems inherent on those lists still hold true here on this page.Nrswanson (talk) 16:22, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

:: Uhm. From what I can see in the history, Nrswanson, it's YOU to remove all those, so you appear to be one of the main initiators for removal campaigns of popular music artists in the past. My point is: if classical artists are listed there, then popular music artists should be listed too. Moreover, there may also be edit wars with classical artists as well, so this argument does not catch at all but rather sounds like a poor excuse. -andy 92.229.185.19 (talk) 22:27, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

:*Thanks for the clarification. Thulcandra (talk) 17:21, 26 February 2009 (UTC)Thulcandra

Isn't "the second F above middle C" more idiomatic than "two F's above middle C"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.129.32.158 (talk) 23:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Cristina Scabbia from Lacuna Coil has a beautiful contralto voice. Someone should add that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.115.4.113 (talk) 20:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that a listing for singers from other genres should be perfectly fine as long as they can be backed up with references. Given that a perfectly stated range and description for this voice type are listed in this very article compiling a list should not be a problem. I think the real issue has been musical elitism.--Toady Mcgee (talk) 03:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

• Malcolm, La donna del lago (Rossini) – Why was this removed? See the article and its references. Note that the role creator, Benedetta Rosmunda Pisaroni, was a contralto
• Orfeo, Orfeo ed Euridice (Gluck) – Why was this removed? See the article and its references. Note especially the section on performance history.
• Mother, Amahl and the Night Visitors (Menotti) – Why was this added? What evidence is there that is this role has been sung by contraltos? The role creator was a mezzo-soprano. It has also been sung by sopranos. Note what's specified in the score, i.e., soprano [http://www.schirmer.com/default.aspx?TabId=2420&State_2874=2&workId_2874=30678].

I'm reverting all three of these. To the editor who made these changes, please do not delete content without an edit summary.

Voceditenore (talk) 14:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I have removed multiple names to this section – nowhere in their articles does it state, let alone verify, that they are contraltos. A few had been placed the singers in :Category:Contraltos with no evidence whatsoever in the article to support the classification. They have also been removed. Some of them have extremely dubious references in their articles, e.g. someone's claim on a fansite or forum - please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:No original research. If it is that important to list them here, then those who are adding them can take the time to reference their articles accordingly:

• Melanie Brown
• Karen Carpenter — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.121.14.11 (talk) 17:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
• Cher
• k.d. lang
• Shirley Manson
• Jennifer Nettles
• Fiona Apple
• Lady GaGa
• Katy Perry
• Kathleen York

In my view both the classical and non-classical lists are inappropriate in this article. They add nothing to the reader's understanding of the term, and they especially fail to do this when the articles linked to have no mention of the term, as is the case with the majority of pop singer additions. I am going to hive off these sections to separate lists. Voceditenore (talk) 06:12, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

That was my fault, I'm sorry. I should have added sources. Katy Perry and Fiona Apple does have references on their pages somewhere. I'll find them and put it on the page. Tribal44 (talk) 19:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)Tribal44

The section formerly named Notable contraltos has now been split off to a separate article, List of operatic contraltos. Likewise, Contraltos in popular music has been split off to List of contraltos in non-classical music. (The title is used to include musicians in jazz and musical theatre, and to bring it in line with List of baritones in non-classical music.) The new lists are now linked from this article under the relevant headings. The headings remain in this article for the addition of referenced prose text which illuminates the topic. It is not for simply listing "examples" of singers. Please use the new lists for that. Voceditenore (talk) 08:38, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

:We've actually been through this before. See Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_contemporary_and_crossover_bass-baritones. AniMate 09:46, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

::The new lists require inline citations to reliable sources which verify that the singer's voice has been described as such, and they have context - the absence of which were the main criticisms of the list which was deleted. Keeping these lists in this article is even more inappropriate. As I said before, they were turning the article into a glorified set of lists, added nothing to the reader's understanding of the term, and especially in the case of Contraltos in popular music were attracting drive-by additions of singers whose articles provided no references whatsoever to verify that they had a contralto voice. Thus leaving the this article continually marred by Original research. I would be perfectly happy with another solution which is to add :Category:Contraltos to the See also section of this article and leave it that. Voceditenore (talk) 10:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

:::Yes, either is fine. Any list will need to be properly referenced, but quite plausibly this is too much work for minimal encyclopedic reward, when we already have a perfectly usable :Category:Contraltos. Moreschi (talk) 11:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Noting that Nrswanson's extensive contributions to this article raised the possibility of copyright issues, and in hopes of improving the general presentation, I have undertaken a fairly extensive revision and reorganization of the text; I did not make any changes to the lists of roles. In the process, I noted a few issues that I don't know how to resolve. First, in more gracefully incorporating the cross reference to Voice classification in non-classical music, I imported the concept that non-classical genres have no authoritative system of classification. Then, just as I hit "save," I realized the statement at least in theory conflicts with the presence of a list of "contralto roles in musical theater." Seems to me one or the other should go, but I don't know which. Second, "coloratura contralto" set forth a typical range flagged with a challenge to its documentation. Pending resolution of that issue, I simply deleted the information. Third and finally, the section on "lyric contralto" indicates that voices of this type are "lighter in timbre" than the others--does this claim hold water relative to "coloratura contralto," which is "light" and "agile"? Drhoehl (talk) 22:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

This category is being inaccurately and misleadingly over-applied to this article which goes against WP:DEFINING. There is nothing inherent or defining in the contralto voice that is androgynous. Contralto is simply a voice type, determined by a particular range and timbre. Some male castrato singers had this voice type, but the roles they played were not androgynous, they were unambiguously male or (less commonly) female characters. Female singers with this voice type have been known to play male roles, but the roles themselves are not androgynous at all, they are unambiguously male characters. Note also that in some operas, sopranos can also be assigned to unambiguously male roles. Voceditenore (talk) 09:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

:Some voice types are inherently androgynous though. The castrati had unusually effeminate voices for men, contraltos have the lowest female voices, and countertenors have the most effeminate male voices without being castrati or Chris Colfer. If you think I've overused the androgyny category here then fine, remove the category from the articles and let me know. There's no need to start a big discussion and turn this into a federal case. And we drown (talk) 09:54, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

::"Inherently androgynous"? Smells OR-ish, at least until the article Androgyny or Contralto says so, with a reliable source. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

:::Wow. As a woman with a low contralto voice, I'm offended that a low female voice would be considered androgynous -- as if there were no such thing as a normal distribution of phenotypes among humans. Does short stature make me ambiguously infantile? Just because an attribute falls within the overlap zone between normal male and female values doesn't make it androgynous -- unless you're saying that men and women who are 5'9" tall are also androgynous. -- Avocado (talk) 19:25, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

::::Again, go ahead and remove the androgyny category from the voice types if you think it's OR-ish or "offensive", I don't really care. But anyone who can tell me that the voices of people like Grace Jones, Nina Simone, Chris Colfer, Cher, and Klaus Nomi aren't inherently androgynous are kidding themselves. And in my world at least, having an androgynous voice is nothing to be "offended" by, it's a good thing. -- And we drown (talk) 02:05, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

"vocal cords" is not an "incorrect" term, it's simply falling out of use in favor of "vocal folds." That doesn't make the use of the term wrong; I suggest the reference to vocal cords being incorrect be removed.Corsair Caruso (talk) 14:38, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Is there supposed to be a topical break between the sentence about the rarity of dramatic contraltos and the paragraph about the rarity of contralto roles in opera? As a layperson, I can't tell if it's saying that dramatic contraltos rarely have roles written for them, or that all contraltos rarely have roles written for them. -2606:A000:4321:7300:ED64:47C0:5125:2491 (talk) 14:34, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

See Talk:Bass_(voice_type)#Potential edit warring on the voice types articles. Kuulopuhe (talk) 13:35, 30 January 2024 (UTC)