Talk:Conversion therapy#rfc D00C83D

{{tq|Historically, conversion therapy was the treatment of choice for individuals who disclosed same-sex attractions or exhibited gender nonconformity, which were formerly assumed to be pathologies by the medical establishment}} – shouldn't this be more specific? Conversion therapy certainly wasn't ubiquitous in all cultures. Zenomonoz (talk) 20:18, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

:i also have concerns about this line. "Historically...was" collapses all of world history into the history of the western world since the mid 19th century, which is roughly the time that the science-informed practice of medicine started to become dominant.

:I'm not sure if there is existing guidance on this already. Woke Wiki Wookiee (talk) 18:23, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

::I think {{u|Buidhe}} may have written this sentence. Buidhe, if you wrote it can you please take a look at our comments above? I could be mistaken as edit history can be confusing. Zenomonoz (talk) 01:00, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:::confirmed: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conversion_therapy&oldid=1136775213 Woke Wiki Wookiee (talk) 04:03, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:::In thinking and reading about this a little more, it seems increasingly inappropriate, as the idea of talk therapies or intensive behavioral/aversive therapies are themselves rooted in fairly modern concepts like psychoanalysis or behavioral science. i'm going to try and dig up some scholars for this but my sense is that the formalization of conversion therapy is rooted in the US interwar era and the moral panics arising from WW2 and the cold war (e.g. the Lavender Scare). that still limits things mostly to the US though. Woke Wiki Wookiee (talk) 02:40, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::::The source it's from could justify a better wording, particularly in contextualizing it in modern western psychomedical approaches. From Harman: {{tq|Historically, both SOCE and GICE were uncritically assumed to be the treatments of choice for same-sex attraction and gender nonconformity, as both of these “conditions” were viewed as pathological by the psychomedico establishment. Same-sex attraction and behavior were excoriated in the medical literature as early as the 19th century by Austrian psychiatrist Richard Von Kraft-Ebbing, }}

::::As a historical note, AFAICT nobody has ever offered "conversion therapy". The term originated as a description for "reparative therapy" which arose in the 80s as SOCE/GICE shifted from aversive conditioning to talk therapies which sought to find pathological roots of LGBTQ identities. Relatedly, the lead should better cover the shift from psychomedical to religiously motivated SOCE/GICE.

::::This page, for that reason, should probably be moved to Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Change Efforts (SOGICE), the academic name for the broader set of practices covered by the article, with conversion therapy as a redirect / alternative title. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:45, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{tq|"should probably be moved to Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Change Efforts (SOGICE)"}}, users voted back in 2022 to merge "sexual orientation change efforts" into this article: Talk:Sexual orientation change efforts#Proposed merge to Conversion therapy. Zenomonoz (talk) 23:03, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::it seems to me like the question here is ultimately, do we use the academic referent, or the political referent?

::::::i would support a merge, and would genuinely look forward to the work involved, using the political referent "conversion therapy" as a redirect to the term of art in academia. Woke Wiki Wookiee (talk) 00:15, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

• I don't really agree with these concerns. Conversion therapy could only be used for a specific purpose in the cultures, times and locations in which it existed. "Historically, CT was X" reads to me as "During the history of CT, it was X," not "during the history of the world, CT was universally X." ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:35, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• :I do think it's especially important in the lead to make clear that this approach was not simply widespread historical status quo, but a consequence of pathologization driven by cultural biases. The remainder of the article can go into specifics of time and place in detail. I also think "treatment of choice" is a poor descriptor here, because i think it's mainly in retrospect that we classify all these things as a group under the "conversion therapy" rubric.
• :i propose the following as a replacement:
• :"Where same-sex attraction and gender nonconformity was pathologized (such as during the Lavender Scare in the US), it was common for some variety of conversion therapy to be attempted on those who displayed or disclosed these characteristics."
• :i'll give it a day or so to simmer, invite comment, and maybe tinker at the edges with the phrasing before WP:BOLD-ing Woke Wiki Wookiee (talk) 20:47, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::Not going to the heart of the manner nor approving/disapproving the sentence in general, but as a sheer wording thing: form rather than variety. "Variety" has two major meanings: type, and various, the implication of more than one. I think we should avoid the implication that more than one method was used in any one circumstance. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:38, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}}

Finland has voted to ban and criminalize conversion therapy and the map needs to be updated

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_banning_conversion_therapy.svg

Sources (articles in Finnish):

[1]

https://yle.fi/a/74-20152467

[2]

https://www.eduskunta.fi/FI/tiedotteet/Sivut/Eduskunta-hyvaksyi-kansalaisaloitteen-eheytyshoitojen-kieltamiseksi.aspx KLXX (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

:{{Not done}}: this is the talk page for discussing improvements to the page :Conversion therapy. Please make your request at the talk page for the image concerned: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Countries_banning_conversion_therapy.svg. meamemg (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

I do not know if this is worth mentioning, but HHS released a report endorsing "gender-exploratory therapy" for minors today, so it might worth adding to the article

Sources:

Time Magazine - https://time.com/7281894/new-hhs-report-exploratory-therapy-transgender-youth/

PBS - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/trumps-hhs-urges-therapy-for-transgender-youth-departing-from-broader-gender-affirming-health-care

Official HHS report - https://opa.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/2025-05/gender-dysphoria-report.pdf

Luigi7255 (talk) 23:31, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I suggest clarifying the use of "pseudoscientific" in the article to better reflect the complexity of psychological claims surrounding conversion therapy. The term, as currently used, may feel overly blunt to some readers, given the nuanced history of the topic. Could we add context to balance the phrasing? For example: "Major organizations like the American Psychological Association label conversion therapy pseudoscientific due to lack of empirical evidence, though historical proponents argued for its psychological basis [citation needed]." This approach acknowledges the current scientific consensus while noting historical perspectives, aiming for a more neutral tone that serves our readers better. I believe the immediate use of "pseudoscientific" risks appearing biased to those exploring the topic’s complexity. Thoughts? Chumchumlol (talk) 03:45, 14 May 2025 (UTC) chumchumlol (talk 03:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:No. People considered bloodletting and geocentricism peak science back in the day. Your userpage makes me believe you’re trolling. Dronebogus (talk) 06:34, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:: Hi chumchumlol, The scientific consensus is that this practice is pseudoscientific, that shoud be very clear. The sentence you propose gives a weight to the historical perspective that is not 'a more neutral tone' but seems to 'balance' the historical and scientific view as if the truth is somewhere in the middle of those views. I agree with Dronebogus. Laurier (xe or they) (talk) 07:23, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you both for your feedback. I’d like to address your points and clarify my proposal to ensure we’re focusing on content, as per WP:PERSONAL.

@Dronebogus: My user page isn’t relevant to this discussion, and I’m engaging in good faith per WP:AGF. Comparing historical views on conversion therapy to bloodletting oversimplifies the issue. My proposal aims to provide historical context, not endorse outdated practices, similar to how articles like Psychoanalysis note historical significance without implying current validity. Can we discuss the proposal’s merits based on WP:NPOV?

@Laurier: I understand the scientific consensus labels conversion therapy pseudoscientific, as supported by APA and WHO statements. However, WP:NPOV encourages representing significant views proportionately. My suggested sentence doesn’t equate historical and modern views but adds context to explain the topic’s complexity, as seen in other articles covering controversial practices (e.g., Lobotomy). The term “pseudoscientific” can feel blunt to readers exploring the topic, and clarifying its historical evolution could improve neutrality without undue weight. To address concerns about balance, I propose a revised sentence: “Major organizations like the APA label conversion therapy pseudoscientific due to lack of empirical evidence, though in the mid-20th century, some psychologists viewed it as a legitimate treatment [citation needed].” This aligns with WP:WEIGHT by prioritizing the consensus while noting historical context briefly.

Regarding the consensus, WP:RS acknowledges that scientific consensus evolves and may not reflect all expert opinions. Some credentialed researchers have questioned the blanket use of “pseudoscientific” for psychological practices, advocating for nuanced discussion. Could we explore sources that document historical perspectives or minority views to ensure the article is comprehensive and non-partisan, per WP:NPOV? I’m happy to search for reliable sources or refine the phrasing further. Thoughts? Chumchumlol (talk) 20:27, 14 May 2025 (UTC) chumchumlol 20:22, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:No. The lobotomy article describes it as “discredited” in the first sentence. Psychoanalysis is not the same because it’s disputed whether it’s at all useful, not universally regarded by credible sources as destructive and unnecessary like conversion therapy. You’re literally just trying to create a false equivalency between outdated and/or fringe positions stemming from ignorance and bigotry and modern expert opinions. Can you imagine the reaction if you went and did this whole song and dance at Scientific racism? Dronebogus (talk) 08:39, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::Chumchumlol, in your suggested revised sentence, the word 'though' says it all: that does give undue weight to these psychologists in the mid-20th century. Laurier (xe or they) (talk) 13:03, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Thank you for your continued feedback. I’m committed to good-faith editing, per WP:AGF, and aim to enhance the article’s neutrality, per WP:NPOV, while respecting the consensus.

:::@Dronebogus: I’m not creating a false equivalency or endorsing outdated views, as implied. My proposal seeks to add historical context, like Lobotomy and Electroconvulsive therapy, which note past practices without suggesting validity. Conversion therapy’s mid-20th-century psychological context differs from scientific racism, which lacks a comparable professional history. Per WP:PERSONAL's policy, let’s focus on the proposal’s merits and good faith constructing rather than ad-hominem attacking. Can we discuss how to provide context that aligns with WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT?

:::@Laurier: I appreciate your point about “though” suggesting undue weight. To clarify, I propose: “Although major organizations like the APA label conversion therapy pseudoscientific due to lack of empirical evidence. In the mid-20th century, some psychologists viewed it as a treatment [citation needed].” This separates historical context from the consensus, minimizing weight while enhancing clarity, as in other articles on discredited practices. WP:RS allows sourced minority views, and credentialed researchers often advocate nuanced psychological discussions to avoid overly blunt framing. I’m actively seeking reliable historical sources (e.g., 1950s–1970s psychology texts) to support this. Thoughts on this phrasing or source requirements? Chumchumlol (talk) 22:37, 15 May 2025 (UTC) chumchumlol 14:47, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::How does "X, though y." differ from "although x. Y."? Laurier (xe or they) (talk) 09:18, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::::You are just wasting everyone’s time arguing semantics. Your userpage self-description betrays your intent here— WP:SEALIONing to legitimize discredited homophobic viewpoints. This is absolutely the same as going to something like Nazi Eugenics and trying to soften the language to make it seem less disgusting. Dronebogus (talk) 16:10, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::::The fact that their "pronouns" aren't even the correct part of speech is kind of a giveaway. Those are adjectives. Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 18:58, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Note that in 2018, they claimed to have been 11 years old. Youth doesn't prevent one from editing, however, when combined with an edit history like this user's and the arguments above, it does raise serious WP:CIR concerns. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:37, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Agree that the proposed {{xt|though}} and {{xt|although}} sentences (which implies some contradiction or false equivalence) are inappropriate here; they might be fine as two separate sentences.

::::We should obviously not prop up historical sources as if they are in contention with the present-day medical consensus. See WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:MEDDATE; a {{xt|historical reliable source}} (possible oxymoron) ceases to be reliable once it's been contradicted by newer developments. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 19:52, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

The lede should distinguish between "attempts to change" when the person didn't consent (I'd call these victims) vs. people who actually want the therapy ("volunteers"). Currently, it makes it sound like CT is something that is 'done to' people whether they want it or not.

Thus, there are three distinct though related issues:

1. Whether adults can be forced to endure CT (nearly unanimous opposition, of course)
2. Whether teens and children can be sent to CT by their parents (controversial, with many jurisdiction outlawing it)
3. Whether adults ought to be allowed to volunteer for CT - and of course, whether therapists should be permitted to offer CT to adult volunteers

I'd like to see better coverage of these issues, rather than a one-sided condemnation. In particular, I hope to have summaries of any scientific studies that have found practical benefits from CT and to distinguish between professional associations' condemnation of CT vs. findings of psychologists and sociologists that have been published in reputable journals). --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:16, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:Genuine volunteers are so rare as to be almost peripheral to subject. Most apparent "volunteers" turn out to be people acting under deception or duress, most commonly young adults acting under financial duress from relatives threatening to deprive them of things like housing, education, inheritance or access to their other relatives. That doesn't mean that there is nothing to say about genuine volunteers but it is, at most, a minor aspect of a topic which, in its contemporary form, is primarily about pseudo-medical fraud and coercion. I don't know if there are studies that explicitly try to deal only with genuine volunteers. Such a study would not be easy. People under concealed duress might go undetected and they would be very strongly incentivised to play along and fake "success" in order to get the process over with, invalidating the results of any study which did not detect that this was the case. (There is good reason to doubt that there is even a single genuine "ex-gay" in the "Ex-gay movement".) Conversion therapy doesn't "work", even on the few who wish that it did. If we have sources dealing with that then there is no harm in covering it but it is possible that no good quality sources might exist due to the difficulty of studying the matter. DanielRigal (talk) 20:02, 16 May 2025 (UTC)