Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini#rfc 0E8A890

Should Mahsa be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian in the first sentence? TarnishedPath^talk 12:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

:Pinging @Levivich, @Semsûrî, @HistoryofIran, @Accuratehistoryofkurdistan and @Beccaynr as editors involved in the discussion at Talk:Mahsa Amini/Archive 1#Mahsa Amini was a Kurdish-Iranian. TarnishedPath^talk 12:06, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

:Masha should be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian per:

:# Associated Press [https://apnews.com/article/eu-sakharov-prize-masha-amini-5a24ba82e8b7819afae72e9dff4bc25e] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# Reuters [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iran-sentences-two-women-journalists-charges-linked-amini-protests-2023-10-22/] {{tqq|Kurdish-Iranian Mahsa Amini}}

:# Agence France-Presse (via France24) [https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230913-the-iranian-women-paying-price-for-reporting-on-mahsa-amini] {{tqq|Amini, 22, an Iranian of Kurdish origin}}

:# BBC News [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65682182] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurd}}

:# Al Jazeera Media Network [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/19/mahsa-amini-honoured-with-eus-top-human-rights-prize] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian}}

:# The New Arab [https://www.newarab.com/analysis/how-mahsa-aminis-death-permanently-changed-iran] {{tqq|a 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# Australian Broadcasting Corporation [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-16/iran-mahsa-amini-anniversary-women-life-freedom-uprising-protest/102861220] {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}}

:# The Times (UK) [https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-iran-a-year-on-from-the-death-of-mahsa-amini-in-police-custody-3z5nj07t2] {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}}

:# Canadian Broadcasting Corporation [https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/artists-in-iran-1.6967329] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish woman}}

:# Le Monde [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/08/19/iranian-authorities-conduct-more-arrests-ahead-of-anniversary-of-mahsa-amini-s-death_6098433_4.html] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an Iranian woman of Kurdish origin}}

:# France24 [https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230916-clampdown-and-grief-as-iranians-remember-mahsa-amini] {{tqq|Amini, a 22-year-old Iranian Kurd}}

:# Deutsche Welle [https://www.dw.com/en/has-iran-changed-1-year-after-the-death-of-jina-mahsa-amini/a-66822599] {{tqq|death of a young Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# The Hindu [https://frontline.thehindu.com/world-affairs/autumn-of-discontent-brews-in-iran-with-anti-hijab-protests-after-mahsa-amini-death-in-custody/article65949425.ece] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, 22, who was of Kurdish origin}}

:# The Jerusalem Post [https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-759152] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an Iranian Kurd}}

:# Times of Israel [https://www.timesofisrael.com/activists-in-europe-rally-to-mark-anniversary-of-mahsa-aminis-death-in-custody/] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# Haaretz [https://www.haaretz.com/magazine/2023-09-11/ty-article-magazine/.premium/one-year-on-from-mahsa-amini-killing-any-gains-for-iranian-women/0000018a-83e4-daff-a5ef-cff64bcb0000] {{tqq|Kurdish-Iranian woman Mahsa Amini}}

:# New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/05/world/middleeast/iran-amnesty-protests.html] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman}}

:# The Washington Post [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/31/mohammadi-hamedi-iran-trial-mahsa-amini-protests/] {{tqq|The Kurdish woman, 22}}

:# Wall Street Journal [https://www.wsj.com/articles/death-toll-rises-in-irans-kurdish-areas-amid-military-operations-11669219934] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an ethnic Kurd}}

:# CNN [https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/31/middleeast/iran-journalists-arrest-mahsa-amini-intl/index.html] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# NPR [https://www.npr.org/2023/09/15/1199882515/a-year-after-mahsa-aminis-death-iran-still-reels-from-protests-and-crackdowns] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman}}

:# PBS [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/whats-changed-for-women-in-iran-one-year-after-mahsa-aminis-death] {{tqq|22-year-old Iranian Kurdish woman named Mahsa Amini}}

:# NBC News [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/irans-protests-crushed-mahsa-aminis-death-still-felt-year-later-world-rcna105003] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish woman}}

:# ABC News [https://abcnews.go.com/US/1-year-after-mahsa-aminis-death-iranian-activists/story?id=103218257] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish woman's death}}

:# CBS News [https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/protest-set-against-iranian-president-ebrahim-raisis-speech-to-united-nations-general-assembly/] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# Politico [https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/16/mahsa-amini-father-arrest-iran-protest-crackdown-00116401] {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, the Kurdish Iranian woman}}

:# The Hill [https://thehill.com/policy/international/4208691-iranian-authorities-crack-down-on-protests-on-anniversary-of-mahsa-aminis-death/] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# Forbes [https://www.forbes.com/profile/mahsa-amini-posthumous/?sh=1cda0d7e2e3b] {{tqq|Amini, a Kurdish woman from Saqqez}}

:# Bloomberg News [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-16/iran-braces-for-protests-on-anniversary-of-mahsa-amini-s-death?embedded-checkout=true#xj4y7vzkg] {{tqq|the death in custody of a Kurdish Iranian woman}}

:# The Lancet [https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(22)00449-7/fulltext] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}}

:# Amnesty International [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/09/what-happened-to-mahsa-zhina-amini/] {{tqq|Mahsa/Zhina Amini, a young woman from Iran’s oppressed Kurdish minority}}

:# Council on Foreign Relations [https://www.cfr.org/article/photos-iran-mahsa-amini-protest-uprising-women] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, a young Kurdish Iranian woman}}

:TarnishedPath^talk 12:08, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

::Credit to @Levivich for compiling that list. TarnishedPath^talk 12:09, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

::Not per MOS:ETHNICITY. She died due to being a woman, as they are constantly discriminated by the regime, which the article also mentions. I have nothing more to say about this. Bests. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

:Yes - MOS:ETHNICITY says {{tqq|Ethnicity ... should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability}}, and the 32 sources above demonstrate that in this case, it's relevant to the subject's notability. I'm not going to speculate about whether she died because she was a woman or because she was Kurdish or because she didn't properly wear a hijab or because she resisted an attack in the van or from natural causes or for some other reason or a combination of these reasons. Whatever the reason, the sources almost universally describe her as "Kurdish" or "Kurdish-Iranian" or similar, and therefore so should Wikipedia. I'll also note that MOS:ETHNICITY is a section of MOS:BIO and applies to biography articles, and this is not a biography article. In any event, we should follow the sources when it comes to how to describe the victim. Levivich (talk) 19:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

::I concur, we should follow the sources. TarnishedPath^talk 02:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

{{closed rfc top|1=There is strong consensus that Masha Amini should be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian in the first sentence of the lead. Of the two dissenting !votes, their arguments have been answered in the comments from the supermajority of "Yes" !votes. (non-admin closure) Fieari (talk) 06:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}}

Should Masha Amini be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian in the first sentence of the lead?

This has previously been discussed at Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini/Archive 1#"Kurdish-Iranian" at Mahsa Amini, Talk:Mahsa Amini/Archive 1#Mahsa Amini was a Kurdish-Iranian and Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini#Kurdish-Iranian. TarnishedPath^talk 02:26, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

• Yes, they should be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian per the following sources which refer to their ethnicity as being Kurdish:

:# Associated Press [https://apnews.com/article/eu-sakharov-prize-masha-amini-5a24ba82e8b7819afae72e9dff4bc25e] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# Reuters [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iran-sentences-two-women-journalists-charges-linked-amini-protests-2023-10-22/] {{tqq|Kurdish-Iranian Mahsa Amini}}

:# Agence France-Presse (via France24) [https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230913-the-iranian-women-paying-price-for-reporting-on-mahsa-amini] {{tqq|Amini, 22, an Iranian of Kurdish origin}}

:# BBC News [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65682182] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurd}}

:# Al Jazeera Media Network [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/19/mahsa-amini-honoured-with-eus-top-human-rights-prize] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian}}

:# The New Arab [https://www.newarab.com/analysis/how-mahsa-aminis-death-permanently-changed-iran] {{tqq|a 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# Australian Broadcasting Corporation [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-16/iran-mahsa-amini-anniversary-women-life-freedom-uprising-protest/102861220] {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}}

:# The Times (UK) [https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-iran-a-year-on-from-the-death-of-mahsa-amini-in-police-custody-3z5nj07t2] {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}}

:# Canadian Broadcasting Corporation [https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/artists-in-iran-1.6967329] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish woman}}

:# Le Monde [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/08/19/iranian-authorities-conduct-more-arrests-ahead-of-anniversary-of-mahsa-amini-s-death_6098433_4.html] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an Iranian woman of Kurdish origin}}

:# France24 [https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230916-clampdown-and-grief-as-iranians-remember-mahsa-amini] {{tqq|Amini, a 22-year-old Iranian Kurd}}

:# Deutsche Welle [https://www.dw.com/en/has-iran-changed-1-year-after-the-death-of-jina-mahsa-amini/a-66822599] {{tqq|death of a young Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# The Hindu [https://frontline.thehindu.com/world-affairs/autumn-of-discontent-brews-in-iran-with-anti-hijab-protests-after-mahsa-amini-death-in-custody/article65949425.ece] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, 22, who was of Kurdish origin}}

:# The Jerusalem Post [https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-759152] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an Iranian Kurd}}

:# Times of Israel [https://www.timesofisrael.com/activists-in-europe-rally-to-mark-anniversary-of-mahsa-aminis-death-in-custody/] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# Haaretz [https://www.haaretz.com/magazine/2023-09-11/ty-article-magazine/.premium/one-year-on-from-mahsa-amini-killing-any-gains-for-iranian-women/0000018a-83e4-daff-a5ef-cff64bcb0000] {{tqq|Kurdish-Iranian woman Mahsa Amini}}

:# New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/05/world/middleeast/iran-amnesty-protests.html] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman}}

:# The Washington Post [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/31/mohammadi-hamedi-iran-trial-mahsa-amini-protests/] {{tqq|The Kurdish woman, 22}}

:# Wall Street Journal [https://www.wsj.com/articles/death-toll-rises-in-irans-kurdish-areas-amid-military-operations-11669219934] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an ethnic Kurd}}

:# CNN [https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/31/middleeast/iran-journalists-arrest-mahsa-amini-intl/index.html] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# NPR [https://www.npr.org/2023/09/15/1199882515/a-year-after-mahsa-aminis-death-iran-still-reels-from-protests-and-crackdowns] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman}}

:# PBS [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/whats-changed-for-women-in-iran-one-year-after-mahsa-aminis-death] {{tqq|22-year-old Iranian Kurdish woman named Mahsa Amini}}

:# NBC News [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/irans-protests-crushed-mahsa-aminis-death-still-felt-year-later-world-rcna105003] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish woman}}

:# ABC News [https://abcnews.go.com/US/1-year-after-mahsa-aminis-death-iranian-activists/story?id=103218257] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish woman's death}}

:# CBS News [https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/protest-set-against-iranian-president-ebrahim-raisis-speech-to-united-nations-general-assembly/] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# Politico [https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/16/mahsa-amini-father-arrest-iran-protest-crackdown-00116401] {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, the Kurdish Iranian woman}}

:# The Hill [https://thehill.com/policy/international/4208691-iranian-authorities-crack-down-on-protests-on-anniversary-of-mahsa-aminis-death/] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}}

:# Forbes [https://www.forbes.com/profile/mahsa-amini-posthumous/?sh=1cda0d7e2e3b] {{tqq|Amini, a Kurdish woman from Saqqez}}

:# Bloomberg News [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-16/iran-braces-for-protests-on-anniversary-of-mahsa-amini-s-death?embedded-checkout=true#xj4y7vzkg] {{tqq|the death in custody of a Kurdish Iranian woman}}

:# The Lancet [https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(22)00449-7/fulltext] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}}

:# Amnesty International [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/09/what-happened-to-mahsa-zhina-amini/] {{tqq|Mahsa/Zhina Amini, a young woman from Iran’s oppressed Kurdish minority}}

:# Council on Foreign Relations [https://www.cfr.org/article/photos-iran-mahsa-amini-protest-uprising-women] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, a young Kurdish Iranian woman}}

Credit to Levivich for putting together the list of sources. TarnishedPath^talk 02:29, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

• Pinging @Levivich, @Semsûrî, @HistoryofIran, @Accuratehistoryofkurdistan and @Beccaynr as editors involved in the discussion at Talk:Mahsa Amini/Archive 1#Mahsa Amini was a Kurdish-Iranian. TarnishedPath^talk 12:50, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• No She was born in Iran and unless she had some kind of duel citizenship the closest example at MOS:NATIONALITY is Isaac Asimov. Per the guidance of MOS:ETHNICITY, {{tq|we do not add ethnicity ("Jewish-American") or country of birth ("Russian-born American"). These details can be introduced in the second sentence if they are of defining importance.}} This seems important enough to mention in the second sentence, but as far as the option presented in this RFC, Kurdish-Iranian isn't supported by MOS:ETHNICITY. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 16:52, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Yes per MOS:ETHNICITY, which says {{tqq|Ethnicity ... should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability}}, and the 30+ sources above demonstrate that in this case, it's relevant to the subject's notability. The sources almost universally describe her as "Kurdish" or "Kurdish-Iranian" or similar, and therefore so should Wikipedia. I'll also note that MOS:ETHNICITY is a section of MOS:BIO and applies to biography articles, and this is not a biography article. In any event, we should follow the sources when it comes to how to describe the victim. Levivich (talk) 22:10, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Yes. MOS:NATIONALITY mentions exceptions, discussing the Spanish regional identities, which the status of Kurds is probably closer to, especially given it was relevant in the circumstances that lead to her death, plus the sources do it as shown above. PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:37, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• Yes. While her 'Kurdish-ness' does not seem immediately significant, {{tq|the 30+ sources above demonstrate that in this case, it's relevant to the subject's notability. The sources almost universally describe her as "Kurdish" or "Kurdish-Iranian" or similar, and therefore so should Wikipedia.}} per Levivich. Pincrete (talk) 07:45, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
• No Not the norms. The WP:WEIGHT of coverage seems to favor just "Iranian", judging from *all* the first several I looked at were using that (BBC, NYT, FoxNews, Daily Mail, Washington Post, The Globe and Mail) and that looking at CNN I saw both usages so. Yes, you can find "Kurish Iranian" but it doesn't seem predominant, much less shown as hyphenated "Kurdish-Iranian". I also give weight to the arguments that the hypenated ethnicity is not the WP norm, and not a major factor in the story. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
• :Some of the sources you've stated support your position are considered by community consensus to be generally unreliable or are depreciated. E.g., WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS and WP:DAILYMAIL. Also you've provided no analysis. TarnishedPath^talk 23:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
• Yes, per @TarnishedPath. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Firecat93 (talk • contribs) 13:55, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

{{closed rfc bottom}}