Talk:Dengeki Sentai Changeman#Adding a link

I have rescued these production facts from the late "trivia" section:

1. Shirō Izumi, who played Yuuma, auditioned for the role of Tsurugi/ Change Dragon, but once the producers realized his comedic talent, it was decided that he would make for the perfect Yuuma. Izumi also guest starred as the kidnapped photographer in Super Sentai World. He also made Sentai history by playing the first regular 6th Sentai hero team member, Burai/Dragon Ranger in Zyuranger. He guest starred in Kakuranger and OHRanger before retiring.
2. The third highest rated sentai series in Japan (the first being Goranger, 2nd being Goggle 5 and the fourth being Liveman).
3. Action director Junji Yamaoka wanted the actors to do as many of their own out of suit stunts as possible.
4. Mai Ooishi was a member of the Japan Action Club, a group of stuntpeople/actors. Ooishi broke her arm performing an action scene near the end of the series.
5. Chief writer Hirohisa Soda says that Changeman is his personal favorite Sentai series out of the ones he wrote for. Soda also says that the major theme he was trying to convey with it was the crisis of war and the sacrifices made by young soldiers.

They seem interesting enough to feature in the article (NOT in a "trivia" section, of course!). May someone with more access to Japanese series' hystorical facts correct or/and locate the source for them? Then please send me a message and I will include them in the proper sections. (OBS.: I am very sceptical about "Goggle V" being considered the second most regarded series by Japanese audience...) --Ivan Linares (talk) 00:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

:Trivia sections are not encyclopedic and should never be included on Wikipedia in any form.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

::If you read the post with attention, you will see that I was NOT suggesting a "trivia" section, but that these facts should be included, if somebody could confirm them (this confirmation is beyond my possibilities), in proper sections, like one for "Production facts" and other for "Critical reception". --Ivan Linares (talk) 21:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I've been trying to add an external link to a site that's used as a source for this article, although it is not credited (when paraphrasing, a source still must be cited). Another editor disagrees, even going so far as to deny the existence of an exception within the Manual of Style allowing the addition of fansite links. Also, there are many other articles about shows in this genre that link to fansites.

There are rumors that the other editor I mention has a vendetta against the administrator of the site I'm trying to add. If true, that's not very impartial for an encyclopedia editor.

Further, this article concerns a tiny niche of entertainment media with virtually no online resources and certainly very few in English. If the aforementioned editor really cared about imparting information to Wikipedia users about this show, he would allow the link I've been trying to add. As stated previously, "some fansites" are allowed by the Manual of Style if meeting a certain criterion. It's not like this is the Harrison Ford article and I'm linking to my personal blog Harrison Ford is the F*cking Sh*t. There are tons of non-fan online resources regarding Harrison Ford.

This article is on a show with relatively no English resources (let alone online ones), and the editor who disagrees with me is blocking access to a rich online, English, recognized-by-the-sentai/tokusatsu-community as an authority Changeman site.

Also, the editor of whom I speak (his name is Ryulong) has been rude in edit comments and deleted my messages on his User Talk page. I will continue pursuing this matter, but this is a first step in discussing it.

I don't think Wikipedia is the place for personal wars.Delaluz (talk) 20:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

:What personal wars? There are to be no fansites used anywhere because they have no use and by being put on Wikipedia it only gives them traffic. This is particularly the case for English language fansites of Japanese media. It does not help anyone to have a link to "Never Stop Changeman" on this page. Particularly because it is not being used as a source for the information on this page.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

::You really need to re-read the guidelines. *Some* fansites are allowed. You also didn't need to tag my last edit as vandalism when you *know* it's not -- all it is = something you disagree with.

::Btw, this article used Never Stop Changeman as a source, but doesn't credit it. *Paraphrasing* still requires you cite your source.

::The rumored personal vendetta you have against the creator of the Changeman site...to answer your first question.Delaluz (talk) 21:17, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

:::The source is the original media. Just because similar information exists does not mean that Never Stop Changeman should be used as a source. And just because some fansites are allowed does not mean any should be used on this or any particular page. And there is no "personal vendetta".—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:21, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

:Also, there has been no proof put forward that this article uses Shougo B'stard's website as a source for this information. The only person who believes that is Shougo B'stard who was told in the past that his website is not to be used on this page in an off-site discussion I had with him. The only person who knows about this is B'stard, so I ask you Delaluz how you have any idea about this argument that was between myself and him.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:04, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

::Oh really? Paraphrasing *still* requires you cite your sources. E.g., the article states: "Star King Bazoo -- The leader of Gozma who is very callous towards his followers, firing death rays whenever they fail him."

::Never Stop Changeman says about Bazoo: "Extremely cruel and callous to his officers, he fires a 'ray of damnation' onto them whenever they fail or displease him."

::BTW, I know of the tension between you and Shougo because I am aware of the tokusatsu fandom community. But more importantly I am a Changeman fan. Not that I should answer your question when you've been so rude.Delaluz (talk) 21:17, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

:::And I guess if the information is all pulled from his site, I'll have to remove it all for copyvio and someone will have to come along and write it all from scratch.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:21, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

::::Yeah, because that makes SO much more sense than crediting the source. And you're trying to convince me there's no vendetta? LOL!Delaluz (talk) 21:24, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::It does, because copyright violation is expressly forbidden. Now, I've produced shorter biographies that come directly from the Japanese Wikipedia, and now there is even less of a reason to use Shougo's website on this page. Good day sir.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

::::::It's not copyright violation when you have the author's express consent *as long as you credit him*. I never revealed my gender. So don't address me as sir. We're not going to agree on the issue of the link...so I will no longer be replying directly to you. Time to move to the next step.

::::::PS You can't use Japanese Wikipedia as a source.Delaluz (talk) 22:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::::Well, we're not using his information and the Japanese Wikipedia can indeed be used as a source as inter-wiki translation is allowed, or perhaps the official Japanese website which has recently been added by a colleague.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:26, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

: Third opinion Fansites are rarely, if ever, appropriate links unless they are unusually notable. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 23:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

::First, can you identify whether you are a friend of Ryulong? Also, as noted above, the site is the source for the earlier, more comprehensive content on the article. Further, it is the only English site on this subject.Delaluz (talk) 23:48, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

::: I have no conflict of interest issue here. Feel free to review my contribution history, which dates back to 2006. Furthermore, you're wasting your time arguing about a fansite. WP:Reliable sources is pretty clear on that matter. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 02:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

:::: I appreciate your giving a third-party perspective, Ohnoitsjamie. However, there are narrow instances where WP:Reliable sources allows fansites, especially when dealing with fiction. Thanks! Delaluz (talk) 18:47, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

:::Being the only English language site does not make it any better than any other website in say Brazilian Portuguese or Latin American Spanish.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

::::The criterion isn't "better" -- it's *notable*. And this is the English Wikipedia. It's obvious.Delaluz (talk) 23:56, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::His website is no more notable than any in any other language, which are also viable sources of information.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:57, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::Also, because the article has been entirely rewritten to eliminate the text attributable to Shougo B'stard's site, the page does not have any sort of requirement to include Never Stop Changeman as an external link or source. It is not necessary that the text of the article include the extensive information included on the fansite at all, and the page has been scrubbed clean of anything possibly considered a copy of the information from the fansite which was all a copyright violation unless Shougo B'stard has released the information per Wikipedia's various content policies.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

::::::Look, Ryulong should not even be included in this discussion/decision. He has a personal problem with the administrator of the site in question. It's clear he's merely using Wikipedia as a weapon. He should remove himself from discussion of this edit.

::::::If the article were reverted to the more detailed information and cited Never Stop Changeman as a source, then that makes Wikipedia a valuable reference for people interested in learning about the show. They can then follow up for more information at the NSC site. That is my edit, and that makes Wikipedia an online encyclopedia. Ryulong's edit makes it nothing more than a pissing contest. I don't see how gutting the article and then linking to the Japanese sentai site (which is NOT an official Changeman site but rather a site about sentai that includes ONE page about Changeman) is an improvement over more information and linking to the only English site on the topic.Delaluz (talk) 01:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::::Stop suggesting that I have a conflict of interest in this. There is no pre-existing conflict between myself and Shougo B'stard. He and I had a discussion on the use of his website on Wikipedia within the last year, and during that time I had blanked the article (again) of all content that came from his page. I am not using Wikipedia in any fashion for or against anyone. I did not know about Shougo B'stard until I joined various online communities in which he is a member and my presence on Wikipedia was known. I did not even recall that Shougo B'stard was the owner of the site until it was brought up to me by a third editor and I remembered that the discussion took place. I have been following all Wikipedia policies and I have not been throwing about accusations of alterior motives.

:::::::There is no obligation to use "Never Stop Changeman" or the information it contains on this or any page, regardless of it being the [http://supersentai.com/database/1985_changeman/index.html "only"] [http://www.rovang.org/sentai/changeman.htm English website] on the topic, which if you clicked my last two links it clearly is not.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:36, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

::::::::It is true you have a conflict of interest, though. From what I hear, it was less of a "discussion" between you and Shougo and more of a profanity-laden rant from you at Shougo. If you believe the Wikipedia guidelines are strong enough to support your argument, then step aside and let those with no animosity toward the site in question decide whether to link to it.

::::::::BTW, those English sites you linked to are the same as the so-called official site you linked to in the article -- nothing more than a website about all the sentai shows with ONE single page on Changeman. And they don't delve into the depths as NSC does. Furthermore, those sites are essentially the same one -- they are nothing but reposts from the The Sentai Series Manual Version 2.0 (c) Marc H. Miyake. It is not even clear whether their information is reposted with permission.

::::::::My goal is informing Wikipedia users about Changeman. What's your agenda? (PS Trying to improve the content of this encyclopedia shouldn't be this hard. Why are you making it so ugly?) Delaluz (talk) 02:17, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::::::I have no agenda. There is no vendetta. There is no conflict of interest. And there is no animosity. As I have said, I did not even recall that I had gone through this bullshit with Shougo on sourcing last year until someone pointed out to me the person who wrote "Never Stop Changeman" tonight. All I knew was that it was a website on a free hosting service. It may be true that my conversation last year with the webmaster was not cordial, but that should have absolutely no bearing on whether or not I am qualified to edit this page or exclude some website from it.

:::::::::You have simply not put forth any reason within the Wikipedia guidelines on external links as to what makes "Never Stop Changeman" different. Before, both you and Shougo told me that the content from his site could be used verbatim so long as it was used as a link on the site. However, this is completely against Wikipedia's content policies. No one is allowed to copy and paste information from other websites onto this one unless the content has been released under the GFDL or a compatible Creative Commons license, or if explicit permission was given to WP:OTRS. Even then, that does not mean that the content would be incorporated. It just means that editors would be allowed to. As this is not the case currently, I removed all of the information that may or may not have come from the fansite and replaced it with content that I have taken from translations of the Japanese Wikipedia page. This nullifies the "need" to link to "Never Stop Changeman" and frankly, there was no obligation in the first place.

:::::::::Now, are you going to stop accusing me of having alterior motives and using the lack of a link to a website hosted on Webs/Freewebs as some sort of vehicle for revenge against someone on the Internet that I have not been in any sort of contact for at least a year and have absolutely no hard feelings for as your excuse to say that I am not allowed to do anything on this article or are you going to continue accusing me in bad faith?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

::::::::::From WP:EL -- "Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority." Whether you agree or not, the tokusatsu community recognizes Shougo as an authority. And really, no, I cannot accept your protestations that this isn't personal on your part because there's no other reason that makes sense when considering you'd rather *gut* an article and not link to the only English site dedicated to the topic and provide LESS information to Wikipedia users than simply link to Shougo's site. Your bullying and obstinacy on this, in addition to your treatment of the issue in the past, nullifies any other explanation. We're talking in circles at this point and will never agree; so now I'm done with you. We need more third-party opinions. Delaluz (talk) 03:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

{{unindent|:::::::::::}}Shougo B'stard is not a "recognized authority". He's just the only English speaker with a website entirely dedicated to Changeman. That does not make him authorized about anything because the anglophone tokusatsu Internet community has no bearing on what is and what is not allowed on the English Wikipedia. That is just common sense. Gutting this article of content that violates Shougo B'stard's copyright is a better solution than linking to his four year old free website.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 04:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

And I've found my communication with Shougo from August last year. He has also continually accused me of using the lack of a link or the lack of his information on this page as a vendetta against him. And he was the one to devolve into childish insults before I did. How convenient that you have done the exact same things. It's not an obligation to use anyone's particular website as a source, and even if he says the information can be used word for word, that's not good enough for Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 04:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

: So I've talked with Shougo about this situation, and he basically said with the decline in Wikipedia in general and its tokusatsu articles in particular, he doesn't want his site associated with this project...which now makes this discussion moot. But, problem solved!

: I would love to help rewrite this article as I am a fan of the show, but alas, my experience here with Ryulong leaves me with zero desire to participate in Wikipedia. In fact, I now question the editing process so much that I've concluded I will no longer even read a Wikipedia article for fear it's inaccurate.

: On a personal note, Ryulong, I would hope you reevaluate the tone of your participation here at Wikipedia. I saw none of these guidelines Wikipedia holds sacrosanct in your behavior: WP:CIVIL, WP:CONS, WP:GOODFAITH, WP:WIN, WP:MASTODONS. IMO, the Wikipedia project will fail if editors act in the manner you do here -- i.e., editing through bullying and not consensus. Delaluz (talk) 19:03, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

::Full disclosure: Ryulong asked me to give my opinion here. Including Shougo's content fails WP:FUC #1: no free equivalwent. Both Wikipedia and NSC use the same source, and NSC's relevant content is solely descriptive of the source. NSC adds nothing a description in our own words can't provide, so it fails FUC. Shougo may be a prolific, interesting poster on HJU, but not a single reliable source identifies him as an authority, and he's not affiliated with the production crew in any way. Nothing against him; I personally find his HJU posts insightful and interesting, but they're not Wikipedia material. And please can the drama, Delaluz; you sound like a troll, makimg laundry lists of inapplicable essays and spewing hyperbole just because you didn't get your way. jgpTC 21:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

::: I honestly no longer have any desire to help here after this experience with this matter, but I have a little advice for you. You can't use the subject matter as your source. For a fansite, sure. For Wikipedia's rules? No. As soon as you start writing about what you learned from watching the show, you become the source. It is your interpretation of the subject matter, even if just reporting facts. As we all know, you can't cite yourself as the source.

::: I neutrally reminded an editor of Wikipedia guidelines. If you think that's trolling, I take it you've never had the misfortune of encountering a true troll. You're lucky in that respect. As for your comment about "getting my way," I'd again refer you to WP:WIN. Finally, are you aware of the definition of the word hyperbole? Because there is not one instance of it anywhere in my interactions on this project. Delaluz (talk) 00:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

::::You're just blatantly wrong when it comes to writing about fiction. Just because you watched or read something and then you go to Wikipedia to write about it does not automatically mean it's original research. You're merely using a primary source as a reference. In writing about fiction, this is allowed.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:00, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

::::And anyway, the fansite would not be allowed on Wikipedia because Shougo B'stard, much like any other big wigs in the Anglophone tokusatsu fandom, has not been recognized by reliable third party publications. The only person who remotely is a reliable source for information on tokusatsu in the fandom is August Ragone because he wrote a book on Ultraman that was actually published.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:20, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

In retrospect, to keep the info, a massive rewriting is needed. Anyone care to help? Fractyl (talk) 12:26, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

:We're not keeping any of the old information because it was a direct copy-paste and then (my fault) a slight rewriting of information from a website we are not using as a source.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Ryulong, I am not certain of the use of "blitzkrieg" as the only meaning of "dengeki". My Japanese-Portuguese dictionary says it means "electric shock" or "hitting of a bolt of lightning". The series was called in my country (Brazil) "Esquadrão Relâmpago" ("Lightning Squad") and even the article's own "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengeki_Sentai_Changeman#cite_note-Dengeki-0 Note 1]" says it's a possible translation. If it's some military term you know that for some reason it's the only possible meaning the word could have, you should put it on said note. Otherwise, I can't see why both meanings couldn't be featured in the article.

And, as a sidenote, I would like to ask you, if you don't agree with some part of the editing, only edit back what you did not like. There were other bits I altered that were not related to word translation, and it would be kind of your part to keep them.

Thank you for your attention!--Ivan Linares (talk) 04:07, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

:Just because it was called something in Brazil, does not mean we here at the English Wikipedia need to call it by a similar name. Also, do not make up abbreviations for things unless they exist in the media itself. "Change Robo" is never referred to as "CR" in Changeman, so we should not abbreviate it as such on Wikipedia.—Ryulong (竜龙) 05:09, 17 February 2012 (UTC)