Talk:Draco Pistol#Uptick in usage in the US

@A412: I fail to understand your line of reasoning at considering this weapon, or any firearm, is of sufficient interest to WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography to add the banner to the talk page. Neither the iconic gangster weapon, the Thompson submachine gun, nor the AK-47, have such a banner, so why is this weapon any different? As far as I can tell, the weapon, itself, is neither a crime nor a criminal. While this article might be used to commit crimes, so can many other tools, including rocks and bit of wood. There is no inherent criminality in the weapon itself. The issue is with how people use this firearm. The observation that police are seizing more of these weapons from criminals is not enough for it to be of interest to WikiProject Law Enforcement, and nor is it enough to be of interest to WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography. If you think I am wrong, please enlighten me. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 22:59, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

:I'm not familiar with any of the mentioned WikiProjects, so if you're more familiar with their inclusion guidelines I'm inclined to defer to your judgement. I just tagged by the article text, a substantial portion of which is spent discussing the firearm with regards to crime and law enforcement. ~ A412 ^talk! 23:19, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

::@A412: Thanks for the explanation. The criminal applications for this weapon would seem to be due to the specific gun-control environment that exists in the United States, and may not represent a world-wide trend or issue. The article might need to discuss this weapon's availability and regulation in other countries. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 09:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

:::I just now saw this discussion. The Draco appears to be disproportionately involved and/or named in crime and criminal subculture elements, to the extent that this has been recognized widely by the general public and media. You are correct that gun regulations, specifically the pistol classification in the US, is a propelling cause behind its widespread ubiquity in the world of crime, and what also brings the weapon its uniqueness as a high-capacity firearm.

:::I would also agree with your point that there is nothing inherently criminal about the gun; Rather, its high-potential for lethality coupled with an ease of restrictions surrounding it is something that has been heavily exploited by bad actors. On that note, I would concur that it does not have any place in the Criminal/Law communities you mentioned. It may also be noted that some credible and objective gun reviewers have discussed issues with the gun's alleged inaccuracy, short-range limitations, and suggested a lack practical application, or at least without modifications - References for this are available in the article and are all over the place online. Clearly, I have nothing personally against the gun, as that would be a flagrant violation of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:NPOV&redirect=no WP:NPOV] SwissAmish (talk) 17:15, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

::::@SwissAmish: I think the association of this weapon with "criminal subculture" is probably unique to the United States, and its gun control laws. In many other countries, this weapon would probably be prohibited and illegal to even possess, and probably would not even be imported, let alone, sold, even by select licensed firearms dealers. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 15:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

:::::Yes, which is why I titled this paragraph - "Presence in the United States". SwissAmish (talk) 04:55, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

{{Yo|SwissAmish}} -- I reverted your edit as neither the existing sources, nor the one you provided in the edit summary, support the claim as it is written. First, the term "uptake" is a grammatical error -- they mean "uptick", as in an uptick in usage. None of the sources provided speak to a general uptick in usage in the U.S. due to an increase in violent crime. There's a news report noting that several dealers in the Detroit area sell the firearm, with the WXYZ source simply saying they've "grown in popularity in the past 10 years" without any attribution as to why. Claims must be directly supported by the citations given; we cannot extrapolate things that they do not say. Additionally, the conclusions about "being instead a tool of intimidation and violence." were removed as they violate NPOV and constitute undue weight -- again, we cannot make a broad statement like this using weasel words like "criticized by some" that obscure the attribution of who believes this and how widely it's believed. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 01:59, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

:I think the article in its original state accurately captures the cultural posture and significance of the weapon. Its frequency and prominence in both the music industry and crime is well documented and readily available. A quick google search will easily show a running list of recently reported events with the weapon specifically called out. I would argue much more so disproportionately compared to the mean frequency of other gun models referenced. I understand that there is not a database cited, but at the time of writing this, the recent metrics provided by the Detroit police I believed sufficed, for what is ultimately a well covered cultural phenomenon which is the Draco in my view.

:It’s not something I feel strongly about however, and don’t always have time to maintain the article, so it is what it is. The article could definitely be expounded on. SwissAmish (talk) 02:46, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

::We're not arguing it's cultural prominence in the music industry; and Detroit statistics cannot be extrapolated to the U.S. writ large. There are major problems with the text you were trying to insert. You cannot take a single claim by a single retired police officer, and state that as "several police officials"; that is simply false and verging on source misrepresentation. Furthermore, it is disallowed synthesis to extrapolate a statement that says "You're using it to terrify people and to kill people, and that's really the only reason to use this type of weapon in a city setting," into a claim that states "for its apparent lack of practical civilian application, being instead a tool of intimidation and violence." As distasteful as you may find it, people have a legal right to use a Draco in lawful self defense; and "using it to terrify people" is not necessarily a statement of *criminal* intimidation; and a single, non-expert individual's opinion cannot be restated in Wikivoice as lending undue weight to the "apparent lack of practical civilian application". At best, we'd require attribution for the statement, and even then it's still probably undue weight, and does not support the claims that were originally written. You need to be much, much more careful about ensuring that claims align to sources if you're going to be reverting like this -- and you're required to discuss and gain consensus for your changes. Remember, per policy {{tq|The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.}}⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 02:50, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Except I didn't take a 'single claim by a single retired police officer'

:::From my citations on the original article:

:::Article 1: Source 1, Chief James White https://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/30880/the_draco_semi-automatic_used_in_fatal_ambush_of_detroit_cop_it_s_there_to_do_carnage

:::"That type of high-capacity gun shouldn't be legal, Chief James White said at a police headquarters media briefing Thursday about the ambush,

:::[https://www.wxyz.com/news/draco-pistol-used-to-kill-detroit-officer-appearing-more-on-city-streets?fbclid=IwAR3Vj6FJCNaf9pvYm4iW4Emqd-xHlE6LJLx7tG8s3MQyAMRqujXcTXTQjHk WXYZ]

::: posts:

:::

"An assault rifle is just for that," White said of the Draco pistol. "It's not a hunting rifle. It's not for hunting deer in November. That's not what it's about. This is an assault rifle." ...
Article 2: Source 2, Tom Berry, a retired DPD lieutenant https://www.wxyz.com/news/draco-pistol-used-to-kill-detroit-officer-appearing-more-on-city-streets

:::"You’re using it to terrify people and to kill people, and that’s really the only reason to use this type of weapon in a city setting,” said Tom Berry, a retired DPD lieutenant."

:::From another article I cited, "In a statement, U.S. Attorney Kenneth Parker said the gun "essentially is the pistol equivalent of an AK-47."" (Not to say that part is criticism) but you got multiple officials right there. I'm not sure what else to say. I have absolutely nothing agains the draco, as I described above earlier in the other discussion. This is just a well documented thing. With all due respect I almost feel like I'm being slandered a little bit here. I always do my best to ensure what I'm writing is well sourced and as objective as possible, and accurately reflects the real situation. Cheers! SwissAmish (talk) 03:12, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Right -- that's a textbook example of synthesis. You're conflating one thing that James White said that is unrelated but critical about the Draco; with a completely separate thing that Tom Berry -- who is not an active police official -- said; and using them to support a claim neither of them made. In the given sources, James White *only* spoke about whether he thought the gun should be legal, because it's an "assault rifle" (which is a wildly incorrect statement as both a matter of functional definition and a matter of U.S. law by the way, but that's not the key point here). He did not say anything about a lack of practical civilian application or use as a tool of criminal intimidation and violence. Nor did he say the same thing as Tom Berry, who in the given sources, *only* made the statement about using it to terrify people, which as mentioned above is not the same thing as what the text was claiming about a lack of practical civilian application or use as a tool of criminal intimidation and violence. The text that you were trying to insert said "It has been criticized by several police officials " -- the sources do not support the claim of "several police officials" here, since there is only one active police official (lieutenants are working-level supervisors, not senior officials, and Berry was retired; U.S. Attorneys are not police officials, they do not work for police departments) and he was not making a point even remotely related to the claim the text went on to say. This is what I mean about taking better care with sourcing. Whether it was intentional or not, you conflated multiple different statements from multiple different people and converted them into something different entirely that none of them stated, and then attributed that to a significantly wider and differently credentialed group of people than even a reasonable reading of the sources could imply. That's not the standard we expect. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 04:01, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Yeah James White said its - "That type of high-capacity gun shouldn't be legal. It's not a hunting rifle. It's not for hunting deer in November. That's not what it's about.

:::::Tom Berry said - You’re using it to terrify people and to kill people, and that’s really the only reason to use this type of weapon in a city setting

:::::Both of these guys, active + retired law enforcement officials, are both very clearly criticizing the weapon and its role in the public domain. With one directly stating it should not be legal, with the other stating the only reason its being used is to 'terrify and kill people'

:::::Everything written here was based directly off the articles sourced. SwissAmish (talk) 12:13, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::"Shouldn't be legal" and "only reason to use this" are very different statements, and once again you've reverted in inaccurate information without substantively addressing the points explaining why you're violating our core content policies. Stop, now, before this ends with sanctions. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 16:31, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

The Draco has been criticized by law enforcement officials, and questioned for its practicality to the public for typical legal gun use like hunting and self defense. Detroit police chief James White has stated that he considers the Draco pistol an "assault rifle" and that it should not be for legal sale. White also stated that 'These assault weapons are ridiculous in our communities and they're causing death - period." and that "It's not a hunting rifle. It's not for hunting deer in November. That's not what it's about"[9][10]Retired DPD Lieutenant, Tom Berry, stated that "You're using it to terrify people and to kill people, and that's really the only reason to use this type of weapon in a city setting."

Owner of Action Impact Firearms and former police officer, Bill Kucyk, stated:

This is a cut-down version of an AK rifle....I refer to them as image firearms - people buy them because of the image associated with them. Anybody who cares about law enforcement should be hurting today - I hope they are...All these guns are dangerous  and this one's dangerous when they are in the wrong hands. [11]

Dominic Lombardo, director of Indiana Tech’s Criminal Justice and Pre-Law Department, described the Draco as a 'cowboy' gun and questioned, "Who needs 30 rounds for personal protection?.....You can’t jump to conclusions,” he said before adding: “Common sense would dictate that if someone is carrying a gun like that, they aren’t going out to hunt rabbits.”[12]

In May 2025, London police seized the draco as part of a fentanyl sezuire and commented on the weapon - “This firearm, unfortunately, has become a favourite for gang members....“It’s featured in rap videos,” Det. Sgt. Jon Meinen said of the Draco.[13]

A search on lyrics.com found “Draco” appears 16,603 times in lyrics by 104 artists.[13]

The Detroit Police seized around 50 Draco Pistols in 2021-2022.[10]

The trend has also been noticed by Fort Wayne as recently as 2024. "We are seeing a major increase in rifle caliber pistols such as the AR, AK style, and others. We’re seeing a high quantity of AR-15 pistols, aka Draco pistols.....The current trend of AK/AR pistols is highly concerning, as they are extremely concealable, extremely high powered, and difficult to aim, fire and handle.  There are many reasons for the current popularity of these rifle caliber pistols, and I think the biggest reason is the “cool” factor; they are glamorized in music, video games, movies and TV, and firearm marketing. [15]

[https://www.wxyz.com/news/detroit-police-chief-white-asks-lawmakers-to-step-up-after-officer-killed-in-assault-rifle-ambush "'We're all heartbroken': Chief James White sheds light on Officer Courts' life"] SwissAmish (talk) 19:31, 7 June 2025 (UTC)