Talk:Elijah Abel#GA Review

I assume his temple work has been completed. This should be included in the article. Bytebear 19:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

This article needs citations. Bytebear 19:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The article says he was one-eighth black but he doesn't look it. Is that correct? It definitely needs a citation. mdclxvi (talk) 00:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

:I agree it need a citation. But note that it's only a drawing. Spencer^T♦C 00:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It is a drawing which appears to be made for propoganda purposes. This is obviously not the drawing of a man who is 1/8 black. Mormons trumpet the fact that Josepsh Smith was not a racist by pointing to the ordination of Abel to the priesthood. But there is no evidence Smith even knew he was black. This drawing seems to be (an extremely nefarious) attempt to sidestep that issue using a bogus drawing of a black man to win that particular disputed fact.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.227.207.152 (talk • contribs) 17:39, 21 October 2008

There's a claim on :Image:Elijah Abel drawing.png that this is not actually a drawing of Elijah Abel. If this is correct, the captions here and on other pages that use this image need to be corrected. -- Beland (talk) 12:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

:See Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Elijah Abel drawing.png. It's definitely a copy of Durieux's sketch "He Believes Everything" as found in "Gumbo Ya-Ya". --dave pape (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

It's no more egregious than hundreds of drawings that are passed off as representations of Joseph Smith, or of Jesus, for that matter. 97.117.193.163 (talk) 21:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

"Brother Coltrin further said Brother Abel was ordained a Seventy ... and when the Prophet Joseph learned of his lineage he was dropped from the Quorum, and another was put in his place." (Meeting, 31 May 1879, as related by Willian E. Berrett, Mormonism and the Negro.)

"The Prophet Joseph Smith was commanded by God to withdraw the Priesthood from Elijah Abel, and revoke the ordination. ... Although there is no official Church record as to the revocation, Elijah Abel affirmed the fact to my father, Thomas A. Shreeve, when both were living in the Salt Lake 10th Ward, during 1872-77. At the time, Brother Abel told young Thomas, who baptised Abel's grandchildren that the Prophet Joseph “came to him with tears in his eyes one day, and told him that he had been commanded by the Lord to withdraw the holy Priesthood from him.” (Caleb A. Shreeve, Sr, Salt Lake Tribune, "Forum", 26 October 1970.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobeyjaggle (talk • contribs) 20:30, 26 April 2010

:I don't know of any historian who accepts these claims. The idea that Abel was dropped from the Quorum of Seventy originated with Zebedee Coltrin, a racist. In 1901, Joseph F. Smith contradicted Coltrin's statements, and said that he had seen Abel's priesthood certificate renewed in 1841, and then again in Salt Lake City. For a discussion of this, see Donna Hill, Joseph Smith: the First Mormon p. 392. Richard Bushman, one of the premier authorities on Joseph Smith, said in his Smith biography that Smith never did anything to deny black members the priesthood during his lifetime. As to the 1970 statement of Caleb Shreeve, the reliability of that is pretty low. It's third-hand, its only source is in a letter to the editor of a newspaper, it was first recorded almost a century after the alleged statement by Abel, it is contradicted by Joseph F. Smith, and it is not backed up by any documentation. Plus, it was written at a time when the church was under harsh criticism for its racial discrimination, and it would not be surprising for false anecdotes like this to pop up attempting to legitimize the doomed church policy. I don't know of any historian that has taken it seriously. COGDEN 21:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

::Even if we hold Coltrin accountable to 21st century standards of racial sensitivity it doesn't discount the fact that Coltrin was there, and Joseph F. Smith wasn't. Joseph Smith Jr.'s statements regarding those with black skin being cursed by the Priesthood (Times and Seasons 6:857), that Cain was cursed in the same way (History of the Church 2:213), that blacks are descendants of Cain (History 1:75), that Ham's descendants were cursed by the Priesthood (History 4:445), and that only God could take away this curse from the seed of Canaan in like to manner to which is was given (Messenger and Advocate 2:290), all lend credence to the idea that he opposed blacks having the Priesthood, at least at some point.

::Abraham Smoot like Coltrin testified that Joseph told him as early as 1838 not to ordain blacks (Journal of L. John Nuttall 1:290-93), and George Q. Cannon told him that John Taylor had been told the same thing by Joseph Smith (Council Minutes, 22 August 1900). Even Joseph F. Smith stated, "the Negro race is barred from holding the Priesthood, and this has always been the case. the Prophet Joseph Smith taught this doctrine." (Improvement Era 27:564). We should also not forget the wording of Abraham 1 regarding Pharaoh being denied the Priesthood for being a descendent of Ham. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobeyjaggle (talk • contribs) 01:19, 27 April 2010

:::That's not the conclusion of any modern professional historians that I know about. Undoubtedly, many 19th century Mormons thought that Smith instituted the policy of racial discrimination, but modern historians think he never actually did. Abraham Smoot's statement only indicated that in 1836 Smith did not favor ordaining black slaves to the priesthood. Obviously, given that he allowed Abel, a black free man to be ordained that same year (both as an elder in March and as a Seventy in December, after the alleged statement that Smoot heard, and then again as a Seventy in 1841), Smith's prohibition did not apply to free black men. Plus, Smith's statement in 1836, assuming it is accurate, came at the precise moment when Smith was most pro-slavery (1835-36). By the 1840s, he had become a strident abolitionist, so there's no telling where he ended up on the issue of ordaining slaves.

:::As to a statement by John Taylor, I think that what you are referring to is simply Taylor relating what Coltrin told him. I don't think Taylor had any independent memories. Coltrin's statement is not given much credence considering his bitter racism, and the fact that his statements are contradicted by the fact that Abel was ordained multiple times, and endowed, after Smith supposedly made those statements. Abel himself maintained that Smith said he was entitled to the priesthood, and he was given a priesthood certificate in Salt Lake City, and he went on a mission as late as the 1880s.

:::As to the statements found in scripture dictated by Smith, the part in Moses saying that the descendents of Cain were black said nothing about priesthood, and the part that said Pharaoh was denied the priesthood didn't claim that the Pharaoh was black. Moreover, we're talking about the Patriarchal Priesthood here. Only Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the other patriarchs like Noah and Shem held that priesthood. It was a patriarchal line, and Shem got it rather than Ham, and Shem passed it down, eventually, to the patriarch Abraham. There's no necessary reason to link this with racism, and there's no necessary reason to assume that just because someone can't have the Patriarchal priesthood, they can't also have the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthoods. In Smith's time, most whites were denied the Patriarchal priesthood too: only Joseph Smith, Sr., Hyrum, and Hyrum's patrilineal descendants had that right because of their lineage. That Brigham Young and others made the leap from Abraham to a policy of racial discrimination doesn't mean that Smith made that leap himself, and modern scholars don't think there's sufficient evidence to say that he did. COGDEN 10:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

"receive the priesthood.Page 46 of The Mormon People: The Making of an American Faith Bowman, Matthew (2012). Random House. {{ISBN|978-0-679-64491-0}}"

{{reflist}}

See Google Books [http://books.google.com/books?id=WHEwgXwfDc8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+mormon+people&source=bl&ots=UEQNFsSW8w&sig=TWhf-He_EFXumcnhAcqy2ch-Lpo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oXADUOLjFpTbqQGj3MCxDA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Elijah%20Abel&f=false]

This reference also states Abel was not allowed in Temple do to his skin color. That would be notable for the article. 108.195.136.157 (talk) 07:49, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

:Here maybe a place to start; [http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120416151614AAvHv9z Why did the "Mormon" church not allow black people to be priests?] from 3 months ago on Yahoo! Answers 99.181.132.254 (talk) 05:04, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I tried to create a find-a-grave memorial for Elijah Abel, but I was unable to confirm that he is buried in the Salt Lake City Cemetery - or at any other cemetery in Utah, for that matter. He is not listed in the Utah Division of State History Cemeteries and Burials data base, and the sextant's office at the Salt Lake Cemetery has no record of his burial. The flora around the gravestone shown in the photograph appended to this article may be consistent with that seen at the Salt Lake City Cemetery, but not enough of the surrounding topography is visible to verify the location. I will leave the find-a-grave memorial in place until independent verification of Elijah's burial site is obtained. I can be contacted at wms1110@earthlink.net.

:There already is a find a grave page for him. See: {{findagrave|9332072}}. And the Utah Division of State History has him buried in the Salt lake cemetery. See: {{cite web|url =http://cemeteries.utah.gov/burials/execute/viewburial?id=3062&cemeteryid=SL2105|title=Cemeteries and Burials Database: Burial Information: ABLE, ELIJAH|publisher=Utah Division of State History|location=Salt Lake City, Utah|accessdate=04/08/2014}}--ARTEST4ECHO (^talk/_contribs) 17:38, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

In both 2013 and 2014 biographies of Elijah Abel were published. I have mentioned them in the article, but it would probably be an even bigger improvement to incorporate their finds in the article. This way we can have inclusion of the most recent understandings of Able in the article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:19, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

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According to the article, Elijah Abel's paternal grandfather was a Member of Parliament named Joseph Abel. I was attempting to find this individual and link to them, but my searches are coming up empty. I checked the History of Parliament website, which should have all MPs during the relevant time period, and there doesn't seem to be an MP by that name. See [https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/research/members/1820-1832/A here] for MPs with A last names during 1820-1832; [https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/research/members/1790-1820/A here] for 1790-1820; [https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/research/members/1754-1790/A here] for 1754-1790; and [https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/research/members/1715-1754/A here] for 1715-1754, which would presumably be the earliest for a grandfather of someone born in the early 19th century. There is a Richard Abell (1688-1744), but other than that no one of that last name or its variants shows up as an MP. Other than the handwritten note linked to in the article, is there any independent source attesting to the existence of this Joseph Abel? PohranicniStraze (talk) 04:15, 13 November 2019 (UTC)