Talk:Ella Henderson#RFC%3A British Versus English

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On the basis of the subject acknowledging their own Scottish heritage (through a Scottish grandparent), should the artist not be referred to as British rather than English? ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 13:26, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

:Having a grandparent from a certain place does not give that person a particular nationality. All of our ancestors are from someplace else if we go back far enough. Ella Henderson was born and raised in Grimsby though, so that makes her English. 2A0A:EF40:25C:1A01:4109:2A62:BA20:BEC1 (talk) 13:14, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

I recently changed the opening sentence to read "British" rather than English because Henderson's [https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ella-henderson-scottish-grandad-said-050000286.html grandfather is Scottish], and therefore she is a quarter Scottish. User:{{u|Unbh}} cited WP:UKNATIONALS and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ella_Henderson&type=revision&diff=1086915729&oldid=1086861160 reverted the edit] saying per "established consensus". The essay (keyword being essay NOT a guideline or policy) says it is {{tq|"it cannot be called "wrong" to change an existing nationality (e.g.: Welsh to British, or British to Irish) provided a sufficient connection exists."}}. Being a quarter of a different nationality is significant and in the article for [https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ella-henderson-scottish-grandad-said-050000286.html Yahoo!] Henderson talks about her part Scottish heritage. Anyway here's what supports "British" as opposed to English:

• [https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ella-henderson-scottish-grandad-said-050000286.html Yahoo! Quoting the Glasgow times] - "the new material, her Scottish roots"
• [https://www.pressparty.com/pg/newsdesk/EllaHenderson/view/110786/?msclkid=dcb6ee40cf9811ec93605664e668867c Press Party] "the Brit is on top of the world".
• [https://www.themicmagazine.co.uk/post/album-review-ella-henderson-everything-i-didn-t-say?msclkid=7133e411cf9911eca10b4da24d38709c The Mic Magazine] - "British pop singer and songwriter"
• [https://uk.yahoo.com/topics/ella-henderson/?msclkid=7b90a063cf9911ec8f6f4c4061aa8de5 Yahoo!] - "British singer"
• [https://renownedforsound.com/album-review-ella-henderson-chapter-one/?msclkid=7b90d182cf9911ec9625531d567157c5 Renowned for sound] - "British singer/songwriter
• [https://www.947.co.za/articles/2022/04/05/ella-henderson-chats-to-zweli-on-her-songwriting-process?msclkid=9d5ec9a8cf9911ecb806292acc077ebc Radio Station 947, South Africa] - "British singer-songwriter"
• [https://music.apple.com/gb/artist/ella-henderson/567487911 Apple Music] - "Fresh off her appearance on The X Factor, British pop and R&B singer-songwriter Ella Henderson"
• [https://www.songwriteruniverse.com/ella-henderson-interview-2019.htm Songwriter universe] - "British Pop Singer/Songwriter Ella Henderson"#
• [https://glassefactory.com/ella-henderson-releases-new-single-brave/ Glassefactor.com] - "British singer & songwriter".

So not only is she part Scottish, but more often than not, she's referred to as British by numerous sources. On this basis, there is evidence that she's commonly referred to as British and due to being of both Scottish and English heritage, British is a more accurate description. Would appreciate other's thoughts and comments. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 13:26, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

• Somebody's nationality doesn't really affect their music these days, music is international, and quite frankly, it is a bind to hear claim 'they are one of ours...' so unless a performer (and this includes recent discussion about groups) actually claim a nationality (and that is verified by 3rd party references) let's give it a rest, born somewhere is veriable, ancestry is not. In the example above, a Scottish newspaper will play up any Scottish angle they can ("the subject had a photo of Loch Leven on their bedroom wall"). One only has to consider the countries who claimed 'ownership' of the the last 3 American presidents - and they have to be American to be President. --Richhoncho (talk) 13:42, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

::*[https://www.allmusic.com/artist/ella-henderson-mn0003275378/biography?1652103132681 Allmusic] - An English singer and songwriter with a powerful, ::*sultry voice, Ella Henderson

::*[https://www.kiss.ie/social-media-is-one-of-the-biggest-things-to-break-an-artist-ella-henderson-on-finding-young-fame/ Kiss] - familiar with English singer/songwriter Ella Henderson

::*[https://outnowmagazine.com/ella-henderson-everything-i-didnt-say/ Outnow Magazine] - English singer and songwriter

::*[https://music.apple.com/us/album/everything-i-didnt-say/1600242954 Apple Music] - the English singer-songwriter

::*[https://musicdaily.app/ella-henderson-remains-brave-on-new-single/ Music Daily] - English singer-songwriter Ella Henderson

::*[https://www.evenses.co.uk/Ella-henderson] - An English singer and songwriter with a powerful, sultry voice, Ella Henderson

::*[https://otakukart.com/ella-henderson-announces-second-album/ otakukart] - Ella Henderson is a promising English singer and songwriter

::There are plenty of sources that refer to her as English. It is disingenuous to say more often than not, when that clearly isn't the case. when she's being referred to as both there's no real reason to change this, certainly not based on what appears to have been based on a promo interview in the Glasgow times to ham up how Scottish she is.Unbh (talk) 13:53, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

:::Whether its being hammed up or not, or used for promo by the Glasgow Times, Ella herself references her Scottish Heritage so that doesn't change the fact. And perhaps on balance the coverage of English versus British seems to be more balanced than I first anticipated. However, it is slightly different comparting England and Scotland for nationality and heritage versus say comparing American and Canada. We use British to encompass Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, but wouldn't use American to encompass Canadian too. For me it boils down to whether someone's heritage from within the UK is significant to their nationality. IMO, and based on the sources above, given that Ella acknowledges her Scottish roots British is a more apt description. English should only be used if the artist had specifically identified themselves in that way, otherwise I think British is better denotation. Furthermore, in terms of music, its the UK Singles Chart and UK Chart Company i.e. covering England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. England isn't stripped out and referred to specifically. Then main opposition I see at the moment is "it has been listed as English for a long time so should be left that way" rather than coming to a conclusion based on evidence of what's been written and her nationality and heritage. Technically, according to the [https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/style-guide/ethnic-groups?msclkid=d324f575cfa311ecbc338b60911f2b08 Office for National statistics], being English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh or British are all ethnic groups anyway. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 14:29, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

::::Not quite if you read down the questionnaire. Scotland has always been a nation, Wales has recently being recognised as a nation and Northern Ireland (as opposed to Ireland) remains a province. Assuming good faith with all that's been said, what is wrong with 'English with Scottish roots?' I would say I am English traced back further than American Independence, then I can find Norman, Spanish, even some Irish gypsy ancestry. Richhoncho (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

:::::If we wanted to say "English with Scottish roots" that's fine. I started this conversation because the opposing editor claimed that there was a consensus per WP:SILENT and that I had violated WP:UKNATIONALS (an essay and opinion piece not policy). It is all meant in good faith Rich yes, British is all encompassing - if the artist had no Scottish roots then simply being called English I wouldn't see as inaccurate. Its a tricky one you're right because of the province-nation-kingdom history of the UK and its probably not the biggest of issues on Wiki but it is a principle worth discussing. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 15:39, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

:{{replyto|Lil-unique1}} what is your brief and neutral statement? At over 3,000 bytes, the statement above (from the {{tlx|rfc}} tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for {{user|Legobot}} to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies. The RfC may also not be publicised through WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:11, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

::{{reply|Redrose64}}, on the basis of the subject acknowledging their own Scottish heritage (through a Scottish grandparent), should the artist not be referred to as British rather than English? ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 08:58, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

:::It needs to be at the start. See WP:RFCST. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:29, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello! I'm an uninvolved editor who received a message from a bot suggesting I comment here. I'm wondering, what was the English variant used in the article creation? Netherzone (talk) 03:35, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

• I vote no, she's certainly English (of Scottish descent), and also British. One article mentioning her grandfather isn't enough to make her un-English.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
• I vote ' no,for the above stated reasons. She should classed as a English citizen

[User:MrBoar1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Boar1 (talk • contribs) 22:24, 2 June 2022 (UTC)