Talk:Elon Musk#"total and complete pathological sociopath"

Is there any source behind him being a registered independent? If the most recent source is from before 2022, would it be possible to find more up to date sources that either still support him being a registered independent or support him changing political affiliations? CY223 (talk) 00:05, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

:It's very, very safe to call him a Republican, calling him an independent is like Heinrich Himmler an independent who has no affiliation to the Nazi party. Dual The Eggist (talk) 19:23, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

::A "Registered independent" is just that: someone who is not officially registered with a political party. I'm not denying his obvious affiliation and promotion of the Republican Party, but that is not the same thing as being officially registered with the party itself. So yes, a source confirming that he is now a registered Republican would definitely be necessary before just calling him a Republican instead of an Independent. There's a difference between a person's preferred ideology or voting record and their official party affiliation. AstralNomad (talk) 04:15, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::Tucker Carlson was listed as a Democrat from 2006 til 2020 on account of registration. This is standard procedure. Vacatio (talk) 02:25, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

For editors that are interested in editing this WP article, Kimbal Musk has admitted to being an illegal immigrant to the USA for a time and included brother Elon in that category, too, even though Elon tried to be evasive. The Herald article is especially in depth. ---

• CNN - Points out the murkiness of the Musk brothers immigration status through the 1990s, into 2000s. - "Elon Musk is one of illegal immigration’s harshest critics. He once described his past immigration status as a ‘gray area’" https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/29/us/elon-musk-immigration-gray-area-cec/index.html

• The New Zealand Herald - Details of the Musk brothers dodging to immigration laws. - "Elon Musk, enemy of ‘open borders’, launched his career working illegally" - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/elon-musk-enemy-of-open-borders-launched-his-career-working-illegally/YXG4TFOAZRGY3OMH6JWY5URKHQ/

• Milken Institute (independent, non-partisan economic think tank) - Video of an interview with the Musk brothers where Kimbal readily admits that he and Elon were illegal immigrants in the USA for a time. Elon waffles, somewhat weakly. See the 13:30 time stamp. - Dinner Program - To Infinity and Beyond: Jeff Skoll Talks with Elon and Kimbal Musk (updated) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T55CcN5c5as

Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 02:17, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

:question is dueness. do we need to document every possible discrepancy or scandal with elon musk? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:02, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::Your point is well-taken, I don't think we need to list every last lawsuit against him for employment laws or business practices, but still, given that he's second in an administration that centers illegal immigration so much, the fact that he was here illegally seems important to note. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 22:20, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Then maybe it would be better suited for Political activities of Elon Musk? ―Panamitsu (talk) 23:29, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::::It would be, though a wikilink to whatever we write over there would certainly be appropriate over here. QRep2020 (talk) 09:53, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

The level of protection will require that someone else make this change. Please correct:

moved to South African in 1950

Thanks!

Sinbad O'Connor (talk) 01:55, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:Done!

:Red dwarf (talk) 03:22, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

This sentence in Musk's Early life section seems a bit excessive, considering Joshua N. Haldeman has his own article: {{tqb|His maternal grandfather, Joshua N. Haldeman, who died in a plane crash when Elon was a toddler, was an American-born Canadian chiropractor, aviator and political activistVance (2017), pp. 26–30.Isaacson (2023), p. 16. who wrote far-right, antisemitic conspiracy theories,{{Cite news |last=Lepore |first=Jill |date=2025-04-04 |title=Opinion {{!}} The Rise and Fall of Elon Musk |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/04/opinion/elon-musk-doge-technocracy.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20250405022309/https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/04/opinion/elon-musk-doge-technocracy.html |archive-date=April 5, 2025 |access-date=2025-04-05 |work=The New York Times |language=en-US |issn=0362-4331}}{{Cite magazine |last=Benton |first=Joshua |author-link=Joshua Benton |date=September 21, 2023 |title=Elon Musk's Anti-Semitic, Apartheid-Loving Grandfather |url=https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/09/joshua-haldeman-elon-musk-grandfather-apartheid-antisemitism/675396/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231007124423/https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/09/joshua-haldeman-elon-musk-grandfather-apartheid-antisemitism/675396/ |archive-date=October 7, 2023 |magazine=The Atlantic}} moved to South Africa in 1950 in support of apartheid, took his family on record-breaking journeys in a single-engine AviaBellanca airplane, and was said by Errol Musk to have supported Nazism.{{cite web |last1=McGreal |first1=Chris |title=How the roots of the ‘PayPal mafia’ extend to apartheid South Africa |url=https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/26/elon-musk-peter-thiel-apartheid-south-africa |access-date=28 January 2025 |website=theguardian.com |publisher=The Guardian}}}} {{reflist}} {{pb}} Haldeman died when Musk was 3. Are there any sources discussing how his grandfather's beliefs and actions have directly influenced Elon Musk himself? If not, then the excessive detail about Haldeman's beliefs/activities seems UNDUE on Musk's biography. I see that editors have expressed similar concerns in the past: Talk:Elon_Musk/Archive_22#Haldeman_Coverage. Thoughts? Some1 (talk) 13:37, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:Unless some sources are provided that show Haldeman's beliefs were a serious influence I agree it should be removed. Nemov (talk) 15:00, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::Is there a reason you have decided not to review the sources linked in the comment you are responding to? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:13, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:"Are there any sources discussing how his grandfather's beliefs and actions have directly influenced Elon Musk himself?" yes that is what the given sources do... Those are all articles primarily about Musk, they only talk about Haldeman in the context of Musk. That opinion piece doesn't belong in a BLP though. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:12, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::Second. QRep2020 (talk) 18:03, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Oh, to be clear, I don't support removing the mention of Haldeman or the whole sentence; I just think the way we're covering Haldeman in Musk's biography is UNDUE:

• "His maternal grandfather, Joshua N. Haldeman, who died in a plane crash when Elon was a toddler..." is fine,

But...

• "who wrote far-right, antisemitic conspiracy theories,[15][16]
• moved to South Africa in 1950 in support of apartheid,[16]
• took his family on record-breaking journeys in a single-engine Bellanca airplane,[14]
• and was said by Errol Musk to have supported Nazism."

all belong in Haldeman's biography, not Elon Musk's.

The only thing I can find from the sources that *directly* connects Musk to Haldeman is: {{tq|The billionaire has described his grandfather as a risk-taking adventurer.}} from the Atlantic article.

What do you think of revising the sentence to something along the lines of: {{tq|

His maternal grandfather, Joshua N. Haldeman, was an American-born Canadian chiropractor, aviator and political activist[1][2] who moved to South Africa in 1950 in support of apartheid[16]. He died in a plane crash when Elon was a toddler and was later described by Musk as a risk-taking adventurer.}}? Feel free to suggest other ideas to fix this UNDUE weight problem. Some1 (talk) 20:02, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:We do not need sources that say that Haldeman's views influenced Musk's, because we are making no such claim. We simply state what happened, which many sources demonstrate is notable in regard to Musk. They describe this in detail, not just in passing. Therefore it belongs in the article. We do not remove material simply because it also appears elsewhere. A fact can be notable in multiple contexts. A single sentence for something widely demonstrated as notable to the subject is not undue weight.

:Demonstrating direct relevance of Haldeman's views to Musk, in detail and at length:

:* https://www.cbc.ca/newsinteractives/features/joshua-haldeman-elon-musk-saskatchewan-tech-utopian-conspiracist

:* https://www.businessinsider.com/who-was-elon-musk-grandfather-joshua-haldeman-technocracy-incorporated-party-2023-9

:* https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/09/joshua-haldeman-elon-musk-grandfather-apartheid-antisemitism/675396/

:* https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/26/elon-musk-peter-thiel-apartheid-south-africa

:* https://nationalpost.com/news/the-ideological-adventures-of-elon-musks-saskatchewan-grandfather

:Additionally, the following articles substantiate POV claims (e.g. "according to Harvard University professor of history Jill Lepore") of a link between Haldeman's views and Musk's. But as I say, that's not what we're concerned with in the existing sentence.

:* "many of his ideas about politics, governance and economics resemble those championed by his grandfather Joshua Haldeman" https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/04/opinion/elon-musk-doge-technocracy.html

:* "There are in fact more than just a few coincidental similarities between the obscure mindset of Technocracy Inc. and that of the eccentric multi-billionaire, X-owner, and Trump advisor." ("Denn tatsächlich gibt es mehr als nur ein paar zufällige Verwandtschaften der obskuren Gedankenwelt von Technocracy Inc. mit jener des exzentrischen Multimilliardärs, X-Besitzers und Trump-Beraters.") https://www.derstandard.de/story/3000000263400/elon-musks-fragwuerdige-vordenker-dr-haldeman-und-technocracy-inc

:* "Influenced by his own admission by this grandfather [...], Elon Musk has for years been the heir and promoter of the supposed "great replacement" and "white genocide", [...]" ("Influencé de son propre aveu par ce grand-père [...], Elon Musk est depuis des années l’héritier et le promoteur des supposés « grand rempl!acement » et « génocide blanc », [...]") https://www.humanite.fr/en-debat/elon-musk/2646226-2

:* "There are at least some striking parallels between Musk and his grandfather." ("Es gibt zumindest einige auffallende Parallelen zwischen Musk und seinem Großvater.") https://www.volksverpetzer.de/analyse/elon-musk-antisemitismusk/

:* "some analysts believe that Elon Musk does not represent anything new, but rather brings back a movement that existed between the Great Depression of the 1930s and the successful arrival of Franklin D. Roosevelt’s New Deal." https://english.elpais.com/opinion/2025-04-20/elon-musks-less-than-original-measures-developing-the-ideas-of-his-grandfather-joshua-haldeman.html

:I can add material describing this to the "Views of Elon Musk" article later. Fedjmike (talk) 20:04, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{blue|I can add material describing this to the "Views of Elon Musk" article later.}} I think that's a good idea. Once you add the material to that article, we could add a summarized version of that to the #Views section of this article, and then trim the Haldeman sentence in the Early life section down to {{tq|His maternal grandfather, Joshua N. Haldeman, who died in a plane crash when Elon was a toddler, was an American-born Canadian chiropractor, aviator and political activist[13][14]}}. What do you think? Some1 (talk) 23:24, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Yes I think reducing it to that one sentence is much better for the reasons previously mentioned. Additionally, the text on Haldeman is about the same size as the text on Musk's parents. Unless Haldeman influenced Musk a lot, which I don't believe to be the case, we should put more weight on Musk's parents. ―Panamitsu (talk) 00:28, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::That isn't how due weight works... We put weight where the sources cover. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:09, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Yes and from what I've seen they cover his parents much more. From memory, Haldeman is covered in only a few pages in Isaacson's book whereas Errol is throughout the book. ―Panamitsu (talk) 01:14, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::And we cover his parents much more, its only about the same proportion of that paragraph but his parents are covered in other paragraphs. I wouldn't disagree on including a bit more about his parents though. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:17, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Seems like too little to satisfy due weight... And the choice of what to include is odd, why include that he "died in a plane crash when Elon was a toddler" when the sources clearly consider his politics to be more relevent when it comes to Elon? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:09, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::The preceding sentence says he was an "aviator", but I'm alright with omitting that part about him dying in a plane crash. How would you revise the current sentence? Some1 (talk) 01:13, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::The relevant part seems to be his politics/conspiracies and similarities with Elon in both regards, thats what the sources focus on so I'm not sure why we wouldn't. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:20, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::See revised version below. Some1 (talk) 11:53, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::At first, sources demonstrating a link or influence were presented as the condition for inclusion. Now that such sources have been given, it is apparently also a reason for removal.

:::The suggested alterations serve to hide notable but undesirable and inconvenient facts, or remove them to less obvious locations. Undesirability is not a basis for removal. Antisemitism, apartheid and Nazism are highly notable features, covered in various sources in relation to Musk, and must not be hidden. We must have confidence in readers to make their own judgements, whatever our own opinions, by providing them directly with all the relevant information.

:::It is on that basis that we also include his father's opposition to apartheid, which indeed no one has suggested removing. It belongs in this section because it concerns Musk's family and childhood. Adding commentary and opinion elsewhere is not a cause to remove the underlying facts about his family from the family section, the only section to which they directly pertain.

:::Undue weight is a reason to remove a fringe view (which this is not), or to reduce coverage of a minority view if it is excessively long (which this is not). It would be an absurd distortion of the principle of due weight to remove entirely a mere 15 words covering these facts (in a long article containing many sentences each of minor notability), in spite of having numerous sources demonstrating their high notability. They are facts about a family member, so they appear in the family section.

:::It would violate WP:SURPRISE (as it concerns organisation) for users to have to go to the views section in order to discover a notable fact about his family. Fedjmike (talk) 07:33, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::The "undesirable and inconvenient facts" about Haldeman have little relevance to Elon Musk unless the article (either in the Early life section or the Views section) can illustrate why his views/beliefs are relevant to Musk himself.

::::The sentence regarding Errol and apartheid relates back to Elon by saying ''"...has said that his children shared their father's dislike of apartheid".

::::What do you think of revising that sentence in the Early life section to say this instead: {{tq|His maternal grandfather, Joshua N. Haldeman, was an American-born Canadian chiropractor, aviator and political activist[1][2] who moved to South Africa in 1950.[16]. He died in a plane crash when Elon was a toddler and was later described by Musk as a risk-taking adventurer. Some historians commented that Musk's views on politics, governance and economics, including his belief in technology as a solution to many societal problems, resembled some of the views advocated by his grandfather, which included technocratic beliefs and support for apartheid, antisemitic conspiracy theories, and Nazism}}? (using the Business Insider article and NYT piece that you linked above for the third sentence) Some1 (talk) 11:18, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::It is not necessary for the article to describe a particular link between Musk and Haldeman's views. All that is necessary is that a variety of sources show that they are notable in relation to Musk, as they do. We have multiple large articles demonstrating they are relevant to Musk himself. Consulting WP:REL, WP:HARM#TEST, WP:DUE etc, it meets all necessary criteria: notability, relevance, verifiability, neutrality and due weight.

:::::Commentary on Musk's adult views does not belong in the early life section, and we have a views section where readers will expect to find such commentary.

:::::It's no longer clear what you are trying to change. First less coverage (on account of undue weight), now much more coverage (??). Fedjmike (talk) 16:47, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::My preferred version would be to trim the sentence down to {{tq|His maternal grandfather, Joshua N. Haldeman, who died in a plane crash when Elon was a toddler, was an American-born Canadian chiropractor, aviator and political activist who moved to South Africa in 1950.}} and then add any commentary about the links between Haldeman and Musk's views in the #Views section. But since three people support the status quo sentence and at least three people support trimming that sentence down, I'll start an RfC later. Some1 (talk) 20:47, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::How about {{tq|His maternal grandfather, Joshua N. Haldeman, who died in a plane crash when Elon was a toddler, was an American-born Canadian chiropractor, aviator, conspiracy theorist, and Technocratic political activist who moved to Apartheid South Africa in 1950.}} the sources seem to hold that his support of Apartheid, his conpsiracy theories and involvment in technocracy are all more relevant than the fact that he died in a plane crash when Elon was a toddler. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:11, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::That looks good to me, thanks! Some1 (talk) 17:21, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I've added a sentence about stories of Haldeman in Musk's childhood, and a Musk quote about his influence. I've also written up three of the sources on Haldeman's influence on Musk in the Haldeman article. I would be disinclined to include all but a passing reference to this in the Early life section, because it concerns his adult views.

:::::::Do you have anything to say on this earlier point? It directly addresses the question of due weight. The facts regarding apartheid, antisemitism and Nazism in question have a second degree relevance ("medium") in this scheme and can be included if they meet all these criteria, as the sources demonstrate.

:::::::: We have multiple large articles demonstrating they are relevant to Musk himself. Consulting WP:REL, WP:HARM#TEST, WP:DUE etc, it meets all necessary criteria: notability, relevance, verifiability, neutrality and due weight.

:::::::Fedjmike (talk) 16:55, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::I removed the {{tq|According to Errol Musk, Maye's parents were "fanatical" in favor of apartheid, and supported Nazism.}} sentence, since Errol's claims (and those are just that, claims "according to Errol") about Maye's parents have little to do with Elon Musk himself; but other than that, your "During his childhood, Elon was told..." sentence looks fine to me. Some1 (talk) 17:40, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I've reinstated this sentence, and the phrase "moved in support of apartheid". The various sources establish these views as relevant to Musk himself because they are about Musk and discuss these things in that context. I've also added a short statement of influence as you requested earlier, to make the relevance certain. Fedjmike (talk) 10:04, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::I've copyedited it a bit since "moved to South Africa in 1950 in support of apartheid.[16][17] Maye's parents were "fanatical" in favor of apartheid" seems redundant, and grouped the views/influence in one sentence (the second sentence). {{tqb|His maternal grandfather, Joshua N. Haldeman, who died in a plane crash when Elon was a toddler, was an American-born Canadian chiropractor, aviator and political activist in the Technocracy movement[13][14] who moved to South Africa in 1950.[15] Haldeman's anti-government, anti-democratic and conspiracist views, which included the promotion of far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories,[16][17] "fanatical" support of apartheid,[17] and according to Errol Musk, support of Nazism[18] have been suggested as an influence on Elon.[19][20][21][22] During his childhood, Elon was told stories by his grandmother of Haldeman's travels and exploits, and has suggested that all of Haldeman's descendants have his "desire for adventure, exploration – doing crazy things".[23]}} Some1 (talk) 11:22, 17 May 2025 (UTC)