Talk:Eswatini#Requested move 12 October 2018

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Map of Eswatini's Territorial claims in South Africa

Does anyone know of a map that shows Eswatini's territorial dispute with South Africa? It would useful for the article to include those claimed areas on the map as we do for disputed areas in the articles of other countries like Venezuela and India.XavierGreen (talk)

Common usage name

From my understanding, the common usage name of article subject is what should be used as opposed to official or legal names. In the context of countries a recent one that has been debated the crap out of, and defeated every single time it is raised is the Czech Republic >>>> Czechia. The main reasoning is that the former is the common name despite Czechia increasingly being used as the name for the country. By this logic this article surely should be reverted back to Swaziland. Swaziland is a far more widely known name for this country than Eswatini is. It makes zero sense for this article to be renamed. UaMaol (talk) 21:42, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

:Here are the discussions that led it being moved: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Eswatini/Archive_3#Requested_move_12_October_2018][https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Eswatini/Archive_3#Requested_move_12_October_2018]. Largoplazo (talk) 00:06, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

:Sources from after the name change overwhelmingly use "Eswatini". Which fulfils the criteria for determining the common name.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:06, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

::That's correct. Per WP:NAMECHANGES: "Sometimes the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to independent, reliable English-language sources ("reliable sources") written after the name change. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. If, on the other hand, reliable sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name when discussing the article topic in the present day, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well." Rreagan007 (talk) 17:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Upload war over flag color

There is an ongoing dispute over the color of the Eswatini flag which has resulted in an upload war (COM:UPLOADWAR) on Wikimedia Commons. As a result, both options are now separate files, and it is no longer possible to upload new versions over either one:

:File:Flag of Eswatini.svg - Uses the original colors as uploaded in 2015
:File:Flag of Eswatini (78A3CD blue).svg - Uses the colors that the other group of uploaders prefer

It is up to each local project to decide which version to use. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 02:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

:If we have no way to determine dispositively what the colors of the flag are supposed to be, then we have no business pretending to present either of them to the world as though it were reliable information. Until this can be settled, all Eswatini flags should be removed from this site. Largoplazo (talk) 10:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

::You can find the colors of the flag often on the Swazi government owned media, website and social media sites.

::See:

::• https://www.facebook.com/EswatiniGov

::• https://www.gov.sz/

::• https://www.youtube.com/live/6QM79-iS7oM?feature=shared&t=803

::Ludvonga (talk) 05:45, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation

In English Wikipedia there is a pronunciation key here (/ˌɛswɑːˈtiːni/ ESS-wah-TEE-nee) which emphasizes the 1st and 3rd syllables. Other sources emphasize the 2nd and 4th. I have no expertise here, but I'm questioning 1st and 3rd given that the Swazi spelling capitalizes the S and I've always heard "Swaziland" with the Swa stressed. Grahamaross (talk) 23:53, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 5 May 2025

:The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bobby Cohn 🍁 (talk) 15:41, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

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:Eswatini → {{no redirect|Swaziland}} – per WP:COMMONNAME based on the [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Eswatini%2CSwaziland&year_start=2000&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 Google Ngrams] showing that "Swaziland" is still the overwhelmingly most common name for this country even 4 years after the official name change. I actually supported the move in 2018 after the name change, but that move seems to have been premature. Rreagan007 (talk) 14:52, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Strong oppose per WP:ENGVAR and WP:TIES. Media that uses South African English uses "Eswatini", such as [https://www.news24.com/Tags/Places/eswatini News24] and [https://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/breaking-will-lesotho-join-south-africa-eswatini-eleven-provinces/ The South African], as does media in Eswatini: [https://www.mbabanedaily.com/ Mbabane Daily], [https://www.eswatinitimes.com/ Eswatini Times], [https://independentnews.co.sz/#google_vignette Independent News], even the [http://www.times.co.sz/ Times of Swaziland]. Kowal2701 (talk) 16:47, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::According to the English variation banner on this talk page, this article is explicitly written in British English, not South African English, so WP:ENGVAR does not apply. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:10, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Right, well that obviously needs to change, the relevant dialect is Swazi English.

:::* [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1467-971X.00088 Some syntactic features of Swazi English (2003)]

:::* [https://scholar.sun.ac.za/items/b8018304-98a1-4b70-8939-aa5b647f0fc8 Perceptions of “new Englishes”: responses to the use of Swazi English in newspapers in Swaziland (2009)]

:::* [https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Arua-Arua/publication/323257750_Aspects_of_Swazi_English_Accent/links/5a8ad33c458515b8af95584e/Aspects-of-Swazi-English-Accent.pdf Aspects of the Swazi English accent (1999)]

:::* etc.

:::Kowal2701 (talk) 17:25, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Oppose. The entire basis for this proposal is Google Ngrams, with data ending 2022? Greenman (talk) 18:09, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::The official name was changed in 2018, so the fact that by 2022 the overwhelmingly common name in English was still Swaziland is good evidence that Swaziland was prematurely moved in 2018 due to WP:RECENTISM. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:59, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::: WP:RECENTISM refers to an undue focus on recent events, or on breaking news. The 2018 discussion took place six months after the official change. WP:NAMECHANGES states, "If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match" which was fairly convincingly the case even back then. So relying only only on Ngrams, and dated ones at that, is a poor basis for a name change. Greenman (talk) 09:36, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

Oppose. I am surprised by the ngrams, because anecdotally I've barely heard any usage of Swaziland in recent years. WP:TIES seems a solid argument though, as well as usage in high-quality sources including [https://www.britannica.com/place/Eswatini Britannica], [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14095303 the BBC], [https://www.theguardian.com/world/eswatini The Guardian], [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FI6cEAAAQBAJ Lonely Planet] etc. It may be that usage in the US has not caught up with this yet, but for an English-speaking nation in Africa that shouldn't be a factor. — Amakuru (talk) 20:13, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::The [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Eswatini%2CSwaziland&year_start=2000&year_end=2022&corpus=en-GB&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false British English Ngrams] show that "Swaziland" is the most common name in British English sources. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:17, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::The reason for that is probably because many books are on Eswatini’s history, and use Swaziland to not be anachronistic, as History of Eswatini does Kowal2701 (talk) 20:23, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Oppose We should obviously use South African English here instead of British English, and most reputable sources use Eswatini. I have not seen a single source or individual use Swaziland in recent memory, and I don't think Google Ngrams are enough to warrant a name change. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:22, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
Oppose per above. Stifle (talk) 13:47, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:Oppose precedence is set with the nearby "Port Elizabeth". It's officially renamed, referred to, and goes by Eswatini. 9mm.trilla (talk) 08:31, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:Oppose per above comments. Alexander vee (talk) 04:35, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.