Talk:First Saudi state#Requested move 4 April 2025

Slacker , Actully Kuwait wasn't a part of FSS. This was an important seaport for ottomans untill the british conquest.  A M M A R  21:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

:Well they did rule part of what is now Kuwait, but you're right, they couldn't take Kuwait city itself. I'll remove it but also remove Iraq because, all though they raided Karbala, they never actually ruled it or sent any amirs over there. --Slacker 03:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

::No , in fact they did fight the iraqi pasha and succesfuly conquered some land . The iraqi pasha was the first responser to Ghalib afandi of hejaz . As a result of this failure to help they lost lands . This is a sources ; it says that saudis have reached the iraqi river of Euphrates. [http://www.alsahel.org/print.php?artc=87&p=1]  A M M A R  22:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Al-Sahel.org is not a reliable source, but even if it was, it doesn't show that the Saudis ruled any part of Iraq. See for example here [http://212.100.198.18//Mokatel/data/Behoth/Atrikia5/saudia1/Mokatel6_11-3.htm#42], al-Moqatel's encyclopedia is very reiable, and most of the text is taken directly from published history books. It says: "و على الرغم من أن التحركات السعودية ضد العراق استمرت فترة طويلة، استغرقت حوالي ربع قرن (1788-1811م) فإن النفوذ السعودي لم يستطع أن يوطد قدمه في أي جزء من الأراضي العراقية ولم تستطع الدرعية أن تعين لها عمالاً في أي بلدة عراقية". So, they did raid Iraq and reach the Euphrates, but never actually held any territory or appointed any governors. Basically the same situationo as with Kuwait. -- Slacker (talk) 13:11, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Why is the Sultanate of Lahej listed as preceeding state in the infobox? The Sultanate of Lahej is not mentioned in the article itself. And I doubt that this Sultanate was occupied. Arturius001 (talk) 23:28, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I question the idea that the First Saudi state was Sunni. After all, Wahhabism discriminated against all non-Wahhabi (/Salafi) Muslims. While the transgressions against the Shi'a (see destruction of Karbala) and the Sufis are perhaps more well publicized, I don't believe the Sunnis escaped this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.140.125.81 (talk) 00:54, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

:{{re|141.140.125.81}} The Salafist reform movement, and the related movement of Wahhabism (there's actually little difference in practise) fall within the branch of Sunni Islam. This isn't really questioned by anyone except polemicists. That they are dismissive of, or even sometime persecute other Sunnis who hold different views, doesn't remove their religious affiliation. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 20:51, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

The beliefs of Muhammad bin 'AbdulWahhab are matching to those of Ahmad ibn hanbal except in slight differences like divorce, he said he is against taqlid (following a certain one of the four school of thoughts all along the way irregardless of evidence they put in each specific matter) and he's for following the Sunni schools of thought on a matter to matter basis as sometimes the right is with one school of thought and sometimes it's with the other, his way is also similiar to ibn Taymiyyah. There has been some rumors about him having certain biszare views and mass takfiring Muslims but he denied them in letters he sent, he made his views clear and they match traditional Sunni views, even some of those who were against him and fought him (like the Emir of riadh if I remember correctly) did accept that his creed was right. Today he is regarded with respect by Sunnis and in scholarly majority, however many people also believe he was a kharijite based on the rumors mentioned above, and some others claim unhistorical things or use conspiracy theories to say Saudi family tree is crypto Jewish to explain their corruption over generations, and such claim is not to be even looked on, as it's based on internet hearsay stories and had no real roots as a regarded historical opinion.

In the end regardless of your views, or what the first Saudi state did (if they did unorthodox things that are wrong according to ibn AbdulWahhab that doesn't change how we define his views) but "Wahhabism" (the one practiced by ibn AbdulWahhab and his followers during his life and near generations after his death) was as orthodox as it could get, you can try to compare it with respected traditional Sunni scholars of the medieval times. They even recognised the ottoman sultan as caliph (and contrary to what some believe, ottomans had no authority in nejd to the extent that some people didn't even who who was the [current?] Ottoman sultan) and the first agressive against an ottoman vassal was with banu Khalid in which they started the war by marching toward nejd (to give context uyaynah was their vassal but it's leader pledged allegiance to Saudi Emir, and before the migration to diriyah ibn 'AbdulWahhab was expelled from uyaynah after banu Khalid leader threatened the uyaynah Emir) and they didn't really fight ottomans themselves until the second and more explicitly third leader (I'd say ottoman role was small during the second) during conquest of hejaz, in the end these matters don't render them as non sunni AbdurRahman AbdulMoneim Userd898 00:24, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

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No references in article created in 2007; but may have relevance to page to be merged to. Bakertheacre ^Chat/_{What I Baked} 21:00, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

: Different article, different content, year of abolished/founding and states of discussion, the article has been in enwiki for many years without more ref and no one had suggest that, so does not need merging. Merging template would be removed. (F5pillar---/ ^{'Messager🖋📩}) 19:06, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Why does this map not include southern Najd? 46.184.88.188 (talk) 06:37, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

:Because it wasn't controlled by the Al Saud. Compare with [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Prophets_and_Princes/EEEFsVYLko4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22saud,+who+was+now+the+emir%22&pg=PA102&printsec=frontcover this reliable source]. DeCausa (talk) 19:50, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

::@AboSalamah I've reverted your map addition per this source 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 05:48, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

:::@AboSalamah will you see this source shown by @DeCausa first please before reverting me again? I am not reading the entire book that you used as a source without providing the pages. Let alone that that book was published by a saudi uni (King Abdulaziz University) 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 06:26, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

::::@Abo Yemen I've read it, doesn't make the source I provided any less more correct

::::And what does it being published from a Saudi university have to do with anything? It also gives its sources, you should read it a little you'll get to the point where it mentions its greatest extent AboSalamah (talk) 06:29, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::just give me the pages no? 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 06:32, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::@Cinderella157 would be nice to have a 3o from you 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 05:50, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::WP:VER is a core policy and giving a page (or similar) is reasonably necessary to verify the map. Verifying the map presently shown is the first question to resolve. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:52, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::File:The First Saudi State Greatest Extent.png is more reliably sourced than the current map (which is titled the "Great Emirate of Diriyah", also a made-up name), but @AboSalamah keeps on reverting it 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 12:10, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Both WP:VER and WP:VNOT apply. There is sufficient concern over the verifiability of the map to remove it at this point. If the information requested is provided and the map can be verified, then a consensus would need to be reached as to whether we use the "new" map in favour of the one used originally. I have therfore reverted to the "original" (the status quo) until such matters are resolved. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:31, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes it was controlled by Al-Saud. Ibn Bishr literally mentioned Southern Najdi clans paying tribute to First Saudi state. Jasmkssnksskskskskz (talk) 09:45, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

:That doesn't mean that it was part of the Emirate. The Al Saud had to pay tribute to the Ottomans at various time - Abdul Aziz did so from 1910.[https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_End_of_the_Ottoman_Empire_1908_1923/DG_JAwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=saud+tribute+to+ottoman&pg=PA223&printsec=frontcover] It doesn't mean that a map of the Ottoman Empire should include Nejd. DeCausa (talk) 13:21, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Why is modern day Lebanon and some of modern day Pakistan & India just blue on the map? IndianEmperor7 (talk) 05:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

. 107.15.167.203 (talk) 03:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)