Talk:Gender#Yet another, another suggestion

The rise of criticism against the WID approach led to the emergence of a new theory, that of Women and Development (WAD).{{cite book |last1=Muyoyeta |first1=Lucy |title=Women, Gender and Development |date=2004 |publisher=Women for Change |location=Zambia |isbn=095351367X |url=https://www.developmenteducation.ie/media/documents/women_gender_dev.pdf}} — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dhum.group2 (talk • contribs) 17 May 2019 (UTC)

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In contemporary times, most literature and institutions that are concerned with women's role in development incorporate a GAD perspective, with the United Nations taking the lead of mainstreaming the GAD approach through its system and development policies. {{cite book |last1=United Nations. Office of the Special Adviser on Gender Issues, & Advancement of Women |title=Gender Mainstreaming an Overview |date=2002 |publisher=United Nations Publications |location=New York |url=https://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/e65237.pdf}}— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dhum.group2 (talk • contribs) 17 May 2019 (UTC)

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The 10 January 2023 change to the lede substitues "man, woman, or other gender identity" for what had been "femininity and masculinity". I think the substitution is flawed for two reasons: (1) the meanings of man and woman are limited to adults (as the links to man and woman indicate), but gender also applies to people who haven't reached adulthood, and (2) the David Haig article cited in the lede indeed isn't limited to man, woman... but repeatedly says "boy or man, girl or woman," and the WHO article cited in the lede actualy says:

:"Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories. (Bold in original.)

Given how the articles here on masculinity and femininity specify how those concepts apply to a person of any age, I think the lede should be partially reverted to "Gender is the range of social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects of having masculine, feminine, or other gender identity." Kent Dominic·(talk) 22:53, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Another flaw in the lede: describing "gender" as being (rather than having or maintining or ascribing to etc.)... a certain gender identity is semantically tenuous. --Kent Dominic·(talk) 23:11, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

:It should be about what sources generally say. Gender isn't just what personality traits are traditionally attributed as masculine or feminine, but involves the entire state of being a man or woman. Also, the change was apparently based on a talk page discussion, and the old version of the sentence was unsourced. The WHO source also talks about men and women, not just masculinity and femininity. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:18, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

::The WHO verbiage is a bit schizophrenic. They say:

:::"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women. (Bold in original.)

:::"Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories. (Bold in original.)

::One way to reasonably cite that source is for the lede to say, e.g., "Gender is a category that includes a range of social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects commonly associated with a masculine identity, feminine identity, or other gender identity." The WHO verbiage indeed doesn't assert anything as semantically clumsy as "being ... a gender identity." That part of the lede has got to go. Kent Dominic·(talk) 19:46, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

:::I agree with Kent for the reasons stated. Additionally sources commonly agree that masculine / feminine are gender words and man / woman are sexes. Sharp-shinned.hawk (talk) 23:18, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

::::A great many sources use the words man and woman to refer to gender, not sex per se. For example, when trans women and trans men are referred to. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:55, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::That's beyond the point. The topic here is limited to gender, not sex. The point being that gender applies also to boys and girls. Here's conversation I just had with ChatGPT on the matter...

:::::{{redacted|An extended log of a ChatGPT conversation has been removed from this comment. This was removed by User:DanielRigal for reasons of size and relevance.}}

:::::Kent Dominic·(talk) 02:56, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::(Please note that I have removed the large ChatGPT log from the message above leaving the rest of the message. Lest there be any doubt, I did the redacting not Kent Dominic.) --DanielRigal (talk) 18:37, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::In my own lexicon, I define gender as "a classification of social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral traits commonly associated with masculinity, femininity, or other identity classifications." The definition allows saying that a person is a member of a given gender. None of the above definitions reasonably allow such a statement. NOTE: An algorithm prohihibts circularity in any of my lexicon's definitions. So, using "gender identities" in the definition of "gender" is a no-no. Kent Dominic·(talk) 12:19, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Crossroads, I agree that 'man' and 'woman' are terms that commonly come up when gender is discussed -- but I find in "general sources" they are often used as sloppy conflations with male and female, not necessarily with a lot of thought behind the use of the terms. Or, as with the WHO source, which I just read, they are used to explain how gender relates to sex, for example,

:::::* In most of the world, women do more housework than men

:::::is offered as a gender characteristic.

:::::"women" and "men" are sexes here. The "gender characteristic " part is the "do more housework" part that correlates with man/woman sexes.

:::::It makes sense to me that the lede use the more precise terms, as Kent recommends. Sharp-shinned.hawk (talk) 19:15, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::I really don't care what ChatGPT says; as a large language model, it does not truly understand the relevant issues. Here are previous discussions that led to the current first sentence: Talk:Gender/Archive_11#Opening_sentence_-_are_%22man%22_and_%22woman%22_genders? and the links in Talk:Gender/Archive_11#Past_discussions_of_lead. It is well-established. If people want to set up an RfC to change it, that's their prerogative, but the current one has a strong consensus behind it. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:21, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Excluding Sharp-skinned.hawk & me. Kent Dominic·(talk) 06:44, 28 March 2025 (UTC)