Talk:Genesis (band)#Manual of Style

whether the band have broken up or not, isn't there some sort of wp style guide for collective entities such as bands?

I actually prefer "genesis *were*..." myself, but seeing it written down here, I can't help feeling it's wrong.

duncanrmi (talk) 22:30, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

:It's "were" because this is a British band and the article uses British English. The manual of style page on plurals has further information. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

An editor is reverting my edits, all of which relate to the clear and unambiguous Manual of Style as relates to possessive apostrophes. Per MOS:POSS, the following is quoted verbatim.

Singular nouns

For the possessive of singular nouns, including proper names and words ending in s, add 's (my daughter's achievement, my niece's wedding, Cortez's men, the boss's office, Illinois's largest employer, the US's partners, Descartes's philosophy, Verreaux's eagle). Exception: abstract nouns ending with an /s/ sound when followed by sake (for goodness' sake, for his conscience' sake). If a name ending in s or z would be difficult to pronounce with 's added (Jesus's teachings), consider rewording (the teachings of Jesus).

End quote. Manual of Style edits are nothing to do with EngVar and are not applied on a per article basis. NEDOCHAN (talk) 20:01, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

: On the band's [https://genesis-music.com/| official website] they use an apostrophe without a trailing s. It has been this way for many years, and I believe that it may even be a part of BE that isn't documented (or at least not on WP).

: In Eats, Shoots & Leaves by English precisionist, Lynne Truss, it is stated "that an exception should be made for words ending in an "iz" sound such as Moses where the possessive is Moses'". Seems Genesis falls squarely into that camp, as well.

:--Picard's Facepalm • ^{Made It So} _Engage! • 16:23, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

Following the Genesis' website quote, from the following books by the band and respected biographies:

:Phil Collins 'Not Dead Yet' (446 x Genesis, uses Genesis', no Genesis's)

:"He introduces himself as Tony Banks, Genesis’ twenty-year-old keyboard player."

:Steve Hackett 'A Genesis In My Bed' (113 x Genesis, uses Genesis', no Genesis's)

:"Genesis’ approach was often like an orchestra"

:Daryl Easlea 'Without Frontiers: The Life And Music Of Peter Gabriel' (500 x Genesis, uses Genesis', no Genesis's)

:"One of the more bizarre interludes was Genesis’ brief tour supporting Lou Reed"

:Armando Gallo 'Genesis: I Know What I Like' (384 x Genesis, uses Genesis')

:"Strat was worried at the end of Genesis’ performance"

:Only 1 "Genesis's" - in a quote taken from a U.S. news article, so not written by author or band.

ToaneeM (talk) 17:18, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for the reply. I don't think it's much use, however, to discuss a point about the application of the MoS while not referring to the MoS. Personally, I don't really see the point of an MoS of it's not used.

:To me, it's either 's or rewording. NEDOCHAN (talk) 07:35, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

::@NEDOCHAN We've had the discussion amongst many and it's been settled. Let's leave it there and not go round it yet again. ToaneeM (talk) 11:51, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

:::I can't see any discussion on this at all, other than those that I have instigated. I don't agree with the idea that the MoS can be ignored, personally, and I might take it up with some more editors to see how they feel about it. Imo, there's no point in having an MoS if it can be ignored in favour of randomly chosen books. NEDOCHAN (talk) 12:32, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

::::"I can't see any discussion on this at all, other than those that I have instigated." I'm tired of repeating this but, from the start, I asked you to start a discussion here, on this page, rather than edit war. You refused and edit warred, over and over. You attempted to start hidden discussions just with me. So, no, you were not the instigator of group discussion, quite the opposite, you were the solid opponent of it. From that, you are not a good listener/discusser while the site's a group effort. Please concentrate some of your efforts there.

::::As an aside, written English must be pronouncible. People do not say "Genesis-is", "Daleks-is" etc and in the UK it is seen as funny if someone trips up on their words and accidentally does so. Hence why Daleks', Genesis' etc exists. ToaneeM (talk) 14:25, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

:::::This falls into the 'consider rewording' part... NEDOCHAN (talk) 16:18, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

::::NEDOCHAN, an administrator which you contacted about the matter [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADrmies&diff=1272629633&oldid=1272628398| has already advised you] that the MOS is not hard & fast law. Please re-review their comment for additional clarity, and how it pertains in this specific instance. There are exceptions to almost every guideline on WP, and the MOS is one of them - when it fits. Please also see MOS:VAR. Guidelines on WP just that - guidelines. They are not necessarily set-in-stone policies. A view through the MOS talk page and archives shows an endless amount of discussions surrounding exceptions. Also - it is not just a randomly chosen book, but most credibly - how the band itself refers to itself, and how it is also commonly referred to, publicly. --Picard's Facepalm • ^{Made It So} _Engage! • 16:10, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

:::::I can't see any discussion around the implementation of the MoS in this article. NEDOCHAN (talk) 16:19, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

:::::As I'm sure you know, MOS:VAR is not relevant to this discussion, but this is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_140#RFC_on_forming_possessive_form_of_singular_names,_MOS_advice_simplification NEDOCHAN (talk) 16:25, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

::::::You are continuing to ignore what an admin (which you polled) told you about MOS not being a hard & fast law, and specifically referred to this instance. MOS:VAR is most certainly relevant, here - even if it doesn't suit your position. This discussion was already had right on this page as far back as nearly 20 years ago - and a few times since. It's been fine all this time, an admin has explained MOS to you in both overarching and for this application, it's on the band's own web page, and there are endless other examples in numerous other publications which have been listed above. Is this really a hill you wanting to plant your flag on? --Picard's Facepalm • ^{Made It So} _Engage! • 19:47, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Thanks for digging out that discussion. Most interesting. NEDOCHAN (talk) 23:49, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

Leland Sklar seems to have been omitted from the Touring personnel line-up? 109.153.31.153 (talk) 12:19, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

A new album will be released on June 13, 2025. "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (Deluxe Edition) " 188.234.14.38 (talk) 22:00, 10 May 2025 (UTC)