Talk:History of Libya under Muammar Gaddafi

Opinions on a separate page for the Libyan Arab Republic? If none are given, I shall go ahead and make it one.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaptinkeiff (talk • contribs) 22:45, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

::Go for it Ecpiandy (talk) 23:51, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

:we need a seperate article for the Libyan Jamahiriya. Berniesandals (talk) 18:08, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

::Agree. Datawikicontributor (talk) 18:07, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

:WHY NOT! Freesucrose (talk) 01:07, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

:@Kaptinkeiff @Ecpiandy @Berniesandals @Datawikicontributor @Freesucrose since no one is opposed to this ill start the split in a moment 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 08:42, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

• {{ping|Abo Yemen}} Hold up here. This has been discussed many times and been rejected before; picking one random old talk page convo that had the reverse results is not great. I'm strongly opposed to this split. Note also that there is someone who likes to randomly split this off and has used various new very low edit count accounts for this, and that the accounts above barring Epciandy are all very low edit count accounts. This is a bad idea.
• It's possible we need a split but it absolutely should not be on "Libyan Arab Republic" vs. "Libyan Arab Jamahiriya". See the previous discussions. Absolutely nothing special happened in 1977. Gaddafi was an dictator in charge of the country from 1969-2011, so it's correct to treat this as one era. If we need to make spinoff articles, fine, but historians do not treat 1977 as some special defining moment or as creating a notably different state. If you can find one of the older discussions of this, I actually dug this up, and again, historians don't treat these terms differently. SnowFire (talk) 22:14, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
• :@SnowFire The comments on this page (ignoring the first one) are all relatively new and there was a huge "There is a discussion going on about splitting the page" template. If you think that there is sockpuppetry happening here then you're free to file a SPI. My thinking here is that all states are notable according to wikipedia's standards, hence I agreed with the split proposal and went for it. I'd like to know what you think that is possible for us to split tho. Also links to those previous discussions would be nice 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 05:24, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
• Abo Yemen: This discussion was started in 2016 and the new accounts largely have less than 500 edits. I don't want to cast aspersions but it's just true that there's a sockmaster who really deeply cares about this and has restored the spun-out articles several times using different low-edit accounts. That doesn't mean the idea is wrong but it does mean that just taking a poll is not great. There are tons of areas where we trust one or two editors who did the research over lots of random accounts. Let's respond on substance here. Have you read some sources? Is this split how the sources you read treat the topic?
• As for old discussions, they played out on several pages unfortunately, but see Talk:Libyan Arab Jamahiriya for some. SnowFire (talk) 15:29, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
• :The history of Libya isn't my thing. I just saw that there is a split discussion going on, and as an uninvolved editor, I decided to go ahead with the split 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 15:33, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
• {{ping|Abo Yemen}} If that's the case, then I'd like to revert this. Read the discussion just below this one on this talk page, for one. Wikipedia isn't organized by taking stackable votes. All of the above aren't citing any reasons, and you don't seem to be either. If someone wants to make a cogent argument for this split, I'm happy to adjust, but nobody has - it's always been "Yeah me too!" which does not count for much. Any objections? SnowFire (talk) 17:41, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
• :I wouldn't be opposed to you reverting it, tbh, but I'd like to know what the others think about this 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 17:43, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
• I will wait a tad before reverting, then, to see if anyone wants to chime in.
• As a side comment, if the Libya-under-Gaddafi article is too long, I'd say we should break it up the same we break up any country article - Foreign Relations of Libya under Gaddafi, Demographics of Libya under Gaddafi, Politics of Libya under Gaddafi, etc. SnowFire (talk) 17:53, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
• :Foreign Relations of Libya under Gaddafi already exists actually. Berniesandals (talk) 21:19, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

I've restored the redirect, it's been a week. Like I said above, I have no complaints about further spinning off sub-topics, just don't think we should present the issue as two separate states that were both ruled by Gadaffi. I'm happy to debate matters, but we need something a little more than "it's a good idea!" SnowFire (talk) 02:01, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|XAELOR}} - Can you explain why you want to split off the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya to another article, and why you used the awkward full name nobody uses rather than just Libyan Arab Jamahiriya?

Various editors have crawled out of the woodwork to do this without ever explaining why they think this is better, just doing it instead. Maybe an artifact of them being separate articles on other language wikis? Anyway, I remain opposed. Nothing interesting happened in 1977. The country was still referred to as "Libya" in English. Gaddafi was the dictator in charge before, and he was the dictator in charge after. If the argument is length, then it should be something like History of Libya, 1977–2011. This wasn't a "new country" that sprung up out of nowhere and then vanished: it was just Libya, and the era was that of Gaddafi, so it's appropriately covered in this article, which this change now makes appear as if Gaddafi's rule stopped in 1977. Which is not true. Even if there are summary-style spinoffs made, this article should still cover the entire period under Gaddafi as a relevant topic. I will again use the example of Francoist Spain, which covers all of Spain-under-Franco, and does not subdivide by the title he was calling it at the time, because the title really doesn't matter that much. SnowFire (talk) 19:08, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

:@SnowFire honestly, it sounds like it needs it's own page, in a nation format Cash713 (talk) 14:11, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

::True! WikiManUser21 (talk) 16:29, 5 May 2023 (UTC) strike sock -- Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:24, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

I think we should split this page into 2 new articles: Libyan Arab Republic and Libyan Arab Jamahiriya. Why? Well, @SnowFire, those two republics aren’t the same as the current one. For example, the Socialist Republic of Romania isn’t the same republic as the current state of Romania. Plus, it feels cleaner to have these 2 pages instead of this one. For example, there’s no History of Romania (1947-1989) page, but we have the Socialist Republic of Romania page. WikiManUser21 (talk) 16:37, 5 May 2023 (UTC) strike sock -- Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

:I've stated my opinion above. If I ever have time, I'd love to rewrite the existing article's structure. But the scale of the change in 1977 is not remotely comparable to the fall of Ceausescu in Romania. In November 1989, Romania was governed by a communist dictator in Ceausescu, and by January 1990, it was governed by completely different people. In all of 1976, 1977, and 1978, Libya was a dictatorship governed by Gaddafi. He changed a title, that was it. SnowFire (talk) 06:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1745442079}}

Given that the two headers before that discuss events between 1969-77 and 1977-2011 respectively and that the Egyptian-Libyan War started and ended in 1977, should we move the section on the Egyptian-Libyan War in between the Libyan Arab Republic (1969-1977) and Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (1977–2011) sections for continuity? I don't think readers will like having to skip around in a history article. Gommeh (talk/contribs) 20:55, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

:It doesn't appear there's been any WP:RFCBEFORE unless I'm mistaken? Chaste Krassley (talk) 23:27, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

:Moving a section here or there won't help, the article needs to be fundamentally restructured and perhaps broken up. It's become a dumping ground for disparate items. CMD (talk) 02:59, 23 April 2025 (UTC)