Talk:Homosexuality#.22Romantic.22 .26 article lead

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| result = 'twas a sock, move along. Girth Summit _(blether) 12:14, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

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{{u|Octanvui}} – [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Homosexuality&diff=prev&oldid=1218334309 this] is improper. Wikipedia is based upon secondary sources, not primary source studies. You've also inserted your own improper conclusions from a GWAS study.

A modest 'genetic' influence on a trait is irrelevant to the cause. It does not prove the influence of social environment or nurture, as you assert. For example, the genetic influence on left handedness is low, but we know the environmental influence on left handedness is due to non-social mechanisms, such as hormones in the womb, or randomness in how the brain grows.

As the [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/epdf/10.1177/1529100616637616 Bailey review] clarifies, the non-social environment is the important part here, especially for males.

Examples of non-social environment include the prenatal hormones that differentiate male and female brains, as well as [https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1705895114 maternal immune responses] which have been implicated. Alternatively, things might be trace back to an [http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Rice-et-al.-2012.pdf an entirely different biological mechanism] outside of genes interacting with prenatal hormones. Zenomonoz (talk) 07:14, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

: {{u|Octanvui}} OK, I will add this link about this studies [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-science-sex-idUSKCN1VJ2C3/], they said “ This means that non-genetic factors - such as environment, upbringing, personality, nurture - are far more significant in influencing a person's choice of sexual partner, just as with most other personality, behavioral and physical human traits”. Is this ok?Octanvui (talk) 08:18, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

::No, a journalist’s article (which is a misinterpretation of the Ganna study) isn’t sufficient for a complex topic like this. I’ve already linked you the academic Bailey review clarifying the point. A genetic study does not tell you what type of environment affects a trait. As I've already said, plenty of traits present from birth (left handedness, cleft lip) show weak genetic effects. It would be illogical to conclude that these are due to upbringing simply because of a modest genetic effect. Zenomonoz (talk) 08:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

:::{{u|Octanvui}} Ok, this is new link - (Nature journal [https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02585-6]) - "Ganna and his colleagues also used the analysis to estimate that up to 25% of sexual behaviour can be explained by genetics, with the rest influenced by environmental and cultural factors". They only wrote "the rest influenced by environmental and cultural factors", I think this is okOctanvui (talk) 09:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

::::We don't cite news articles authored by journalists, over more robust academic reviews by experts on the topic. But to clarify, the Ganna team never say this proves social influence on sexual orientation. They do note how social acceptance would allow those with same-sex attractions to engage in same sex behaviour. This is because the GWAS is not a study of homosexual orientation, it is a GWAS of people who engaged in one same-sex act in their life. So no, that isn't suitable and lacks context. But it does seem like you are potentially engaging in bad faith here. "Environmental" can obviously include non-social environmental factors. Zenomonoz (talk) 10:14, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

:User:Octanvui is an obvious bad faith LTA sock. SPI report will be filed. Bennv123 (talk) 10:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

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The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dionism&redirect=no Dionism] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at {{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 2#Dionian(ism)}} until a consensus is reached. --MikutoH ^talk! 02:22, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

• Where on earth did this come from? In one sliver of the academic universe, dionism can mean the opposite of homosexuality -- dionism is in opposition to uranism, an historic word for gayness as well as what we'd now call bromance, aka non-sexual male-male love. There is literally no way that term should redir here! Ta, Bitten Peach (talk) 14:55, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
• :You can retarget. This redirect is older than uranian (sexuality) page. Skemous (talk) 06:46, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

{{hat|Whether or not this was ever a serious request for a change, it has devolved into an excuse to waste people's time with off-topic WP:NOTFORUM advocacy and nothing productive can come of continuing with it.}}

Please remove gender from the definition, sex is what's important here; that is the one thing that, even now, determines whether or not a child can be created without outside help. A trans woman and a cis man can never, no matter how hard they try, create an embryo on their own. The same applies to trans men and cis women. If you don't believe me believe AI, "Yes, sex is a fundamental aspect of defining homosexuality, as it refers to the sexual or romantic attraction an individual has towards people of the same sex; therefore, when discussing homosexuality, the concept of sex is inherently involved." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masquewand (talk • contribs) 03:17, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

:What source says that this should be removed? The second and third sources use both sex and gender. ―Panamitsu (talk) 04:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

::Google AI. Masquewand (talk) 05:09, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

::Google AI and we as people. Gender is a purely social aspect, it has no place in an article about what individuals feel and how they are "so-called different". Sex is what a person is born as and can't change even with trans treatment. Masquewand (talk) 05:15, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

:::What reliable source says that. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:18, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

::::All of these: https://www.google.com/search?q=is+gender+socially+constructed&oq=is+gender+soci&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgAEAAYgAQyBwgAEAAYgAQyBwgBEAAYgAQyBwgCEAAYgAQyBwgDEAAYgAQyBggEEEUYOTIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDINCAgQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAkQABiGAxiABBiKBdIBCDc4NjNqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

::::Even with these, this article is about (or can be about) every single person in and around the world; with something that is inside us you can't believe what other people say, they aren't you. This article is about emotions, attraction, friendship, colleagues, and society. Every single thing that makes up who we are as people. Masquewand (talk) 05:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

::::And on the changing sex part there's these. https://www.google.com/search?q=can+you+change+your+sex&oq=can+you+change+your+sex&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORiABDINCAEQABiRAhiABBiKBTIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABNIBCDg3MTNqMGo5qAIAsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Masquewand (talk) 05:57, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

:::::Please review WP:RS EvergreenFir (talk) 06:00, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

::::::Ok, then these. https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

::::::https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_gender

::::::https://socialsci.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Gender_Studies/Sexuality_the_Self_and_Society_(Ruhman_Bowman_Jackson_Lushtak_Newman_and_Sunder)/05%3A_Gender_Identity_Gender_Roles_and_Gender_Differences/5.07%3A_Social_Construction_of_Gender#:~:text=Scholars%20generally%20regard%20gender%20as,peer%20groups%2C%20and%20mass%20media. Masquewand (talk) 17:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

:::::::And these. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/procedures/gender-affirmation-surgery

:::::::https://can-sg.org/frequently-asked-questions/can-humans-change-sex/

:::::::https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence

:::::::https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/new-york-times-reveals-painful-truths-about-sex-change-surgery Masquewand (talk) 17:09, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

::::::::Also this written by a mayor's office of lgbtq rights and office of human rights. It states "sex and gender are often used interchangeably; however they are not the same thing. Whereas sex has a biological basis, gender is a social construct." "Sex is a medical classification made based on a person's internal reproductive organs, external genitalia, chromosomes, and gonads." "Gender refers to the social and cultural differences a society assigns people based on an individual's biological(assigned at birth) sex. These differences are usually split into norms, behaviors, and roles that are associated with being biologically male or biologically female."

::::::::https://ohr.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ohr/publication/attachments/Words%20Matter%20Sexual%20OrientationMay232024.pdf Masquewand (talk) 17:27, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

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An excellent edit by @Jino john1996 highlighted the rather tortured phrasing of the Classical Period section. I've made an effort to reword it. If you don't like this edit, please improve it, but please don't just revert it to the highly elliptical original. Ta, Bitten Peach (talk) 12:43, 8 April 2025 (UTC)