Talk:Ilhan Omar#ARBPIA

There was an arabic spelling of her name that was removed, can that be added back for muslim readers and arabic speakers/readers? WP is a global project. Iljhgtn (talk) 05:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

:This was removed several years ago for very good reasons, you should not add it back. Pinging all the users who took part in that discussion and have made any edits since 2021: {{ping|Zaathras|NightHeron|Cullen328}}. (I am JBL, currently traveling and not able to log in.) --158.144.178.11 (talk) 17:20, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

::I oppose adding the Arabic spelling for the reasons brought up in the previous conversation linked to by JBL. She is not an Arab and to the best of my knowledge, does not actually speak Arabic, although like all Muslims, she knows the basic religious phrases in Arabic. Cullen328 (talk) 17:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

:::I read the entire previous discussion and did not really see any "very good reasons" for not adding the Arabic translation.

:::I do think it is helpful for the 13% of Somali readers who are fluent in Arabic, and I do not really understand what the downside is. I do get that it is not information that would be beneficial to all readers, but how is it harmful? If it is marginally beneficial on the upside, but has even less to zero downside, then I would still argue for the Arabic language translation, as well as the Somali language translation included. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:08, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

::::It is common practice for Somali-American, Somali-Canadian or similar Somalis to have the Somali and Arabic language translations included in their bios, here is just a short list I was able to compile:

::::Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi, Ali Jimale Ahmed, Abdi Kusow, Mohamed Haji Mukhtar, Abdi Ismail Samatar, among dozens of other examples that can be provided if desired. Iljhgtn (talk) 01:08, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

:::::Here is a List of Somali Americans for more. Not every single one has the Arabic, but the overwhelming majority have Somali translation, so I went ahead and added that at least, while we deliberate still over whether or not to include the Arabic too (which I see as doing no harm, but adding some benefit to the article). Iljhgtn (talk) 13:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

::::::user:Iljhgtn, I see you added the Arabic and Somali spellings for several of the members of that list today. I would still lean towards following the result of that previous discussion (though if we add Arabic here and elsewhere, Somali first makes a whole lot more sense, as we typically include native names first if there are alternate names in the lead). I would lean towards establishing a standard across the board for Somali American public figures whose language of origin is Somali, but I wouldn't say we've reached a general consensus. ~Malvoliox (talk | contribs) 17:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

:::::::Some of them yes, in full disclosure, but still the overwhelming majority of the translations existed prior if you look through the full list. Iljhgtn (talk) 17:58, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

::::The harm, in my view, is in the foreignization of an American. Surely you know that the subject of this article has received an enormous amount of Islamophobic animus. Highlighting an unreferenced pronunciation guide in a language she does not speak furthers the idea that she is something other than American. She's not an Arab and her name is not Arabic. Adding an Arabic name also implies that she uses an Arabic name, which we have zero evidence of. The rationale that WP is a global project doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, because there already is an Arabic Wikipedia, where Ilhan Omar already has a page. See MOS:LEADLANG: "If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single equivalent name in another language may be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses." We've done that, for Somali, the language her name is in. Per MOS:NICKCRUFT: "Alternative names that are not well known to our readers may not need to be in the lead at all. Excessive non-English language details can make the lead sentence difficult to understand." For these reasons, I oppose the addition of an Arabic name in the lead. TheSavageNorwegian 22:29, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

:::::I agree. If readers want to know how the names of American politicians translate into their own languages, there are foreign language wikipedias for that. TFD (talk) 02:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

::::::I am convinced we can leave the Somali only then as a single other language translation within the standard parentheses per MOS, unless more reliable sources use the Arabic for her name or new evidence presents itself, at which time we can revisit adding Arabic. Thank you both for commenting in this discussion. Iljhgtn (talk) 02:32, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

:::::::I don't see any support for this from anyone else; I continue to oppose it. Omar immigrated to the US as a child and has been known by the name in the title of the article consistently in the time she has been notable; the Somali spelling name is not well attested to in sources that I can see (and unsourced in the article, and not present anywhere other than the lead); the fact that you personally are the one doing this in many of the other examples you cite is good evidence that it is abnormal rather than normal for WP articles. So I have once again reverted the addition. --JBL (talk) 17:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

::::::::"{{tq|...the overwhelming majority of the translations existed prior if you look through the full list.}}"

::::::::Feel free to check the list and not take my word for it. Including the Somali is very common, Somali and Arabic somewhat less common but second most common, and only in the rarest of instances is neither Somali nor Arabic used, regardless of my input. Iljhgtn (talk) 00:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Is there consensus for restoring the Somali language translation of Ilhan Omar which would look like this (Somali: Ilhaan Cumar), which is in english characters and translates to appear loosely the same ("Cumar" vs. "Omar", and one extra "a" in "Ilhaan" vs. "Ilhan"). [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ilhan_Omar&diff=prev&oldid=1264616325 This edit] was recently removed by an editor opposing both the Arabic AND Somali language translations. I came around to agreeing that the Arabic language version did not have consensus for being included despite being on many other Somali-American BLP articles (though I have added a few of those, but certainly not most). The Somali version alone, especially given that Somali is in English-Romantic characters, I believe also has a lower to zero risk of any "foreignization" potential downside, and only upside for adding context and native translation where it normally appears on a BLP when appropriate. Iljhgtn (talk) 16:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

:Hi {{u|Iljhgtn}}, thanks for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:JayBeeEll&diff=prev&oldid=1264682470 your message] on my user talk-page. As I said there, I'd prefer to keep discussion centered here. Here for me is the key point: if someone were going to convince me to take the view that Ilhan Omar has a Somali name, and this is an important piece of information about her, what I would want to see is evidence that "Ilhan Omar's Somali name is Ilhaan Cumar" is a piece of information that is reasonably well attested to in English-language sources about her. (You can see above that I also take a similar view about IPA transliterations.) As far as I can tell, however, it is almost never mentioned. So what it would take to get me personally to drop my objection would be evidence of this piece of information being mentioned in good sources about her. Of course to develop a consensus it is not necessary that you convince me personally to change my view -- but so far it does not seem like you have convinced anyone else, either. --JBL (talk) 00:06, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I have removed "She has received criticism over her personal relationships, with political opponents highlighting her past marital issues as a point of attack" from the lead, as it is not expanded on in the article. Her relationships are mentioned, but there is no reference to political opponents attacking her for that reason. Black Kite (talk) 10:01, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

{{Langx|so|Ilhaan Cabdullaahi Cumar}}; {{langx|ar|الهان عبدالله عمر}} QalasQalas (talk) 23:44, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

:This has been repeatedly discussed and rejected; I suppose you are welcome to start another one, but you should read the discussions above first. --JBL (talk) 23:52, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

::I read it, but i suggest WP:Snowball QalasQalas (talk) 23:54, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

:::WP:Snowball does not say "once a proposal has been roundly rejected, bring it up again, knowing that most people expressing an opinion will oppose it". If anything, it's the opposite. What is your interpretation of WP:Snowball in this case? MartinPoulter (talk) 15:10, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::As a matter of fact, it was essentially "rejected" by mostly just you JayBeeEll. Consensus was by no means very strong on the matter. I think your suggestion is valid QalasQalas and I strongly support restoring the version of this page where the Somali {{Langx|so|Ilhaan Cabdullaahi Cumar}} is included, though I am less convinced that the Arabic need be included, though I do not oppose it. Iljhgtn (talk) 03:13, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::The most recent iteration of this discussion involves four people opposing your additions, one person expressing that they do not believe you have achieved consensus for inclusion, and you. It is a shame that your chosen hobby is going around making up foreign-language names for people; perhaps one day you will learn about WP:OR and WP:ONUS. (Also obviously {{u|MartinPoulter}} and I are not the same person.) --JBL (talk) 20:01, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::@JayBeeEll I am only mentioning this here because you requested I not comment on your talk page and you directly linked to this talk page discussion as apparently what set you off. I realize that you might have been upset that your preferred version, wording, or label is being questioned again, but that is part of consensus building. It is a dynamic and ongoing process. Please Wikipedia:FOC and stop making this personal with comments such as, "Ah yes whereas [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ilhan_Omar&curid=51290222&diff=1294838398&oldid=1289334122 this random personal remark] was completely charming and appropriate. Don't post here again unless required by policy", which you replied to my comment on your talk page. I apologize if I offended you somehow, but I said absolutely nothing to warrant this sort of caustic attitude which seemingly came out of nowhere and apparently escalated rather quickly. Iljhgtn (talk) 22:06, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Now regarding the above actual content question, I still support, and it does seem like others do support as well, the Somali foreign language equivalent, though not the Arabic (for Ilhan Omar).

:::::::Is there consensus for restoring this? Should we post about this in any relevant noticeboards for greater reach? Iljhgtn (talk) 22:08, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::When someone who you have randomly made false personal remarks towards in discussion that had ended months earlier tells you to not bother them, why do you think it is appropriate to continue that discussion on an article talk-page?

::::::::No, obviously there is never going to be consensus for this change in the face of a clear policy-based objection, without a response of comparable quality. If my memory is correct, I have reverted edits by you that added non-English names perhaps 10 times over the years (in almost all cases, because the articles happen to be on my watchlist); and if I am not mistaken, the number of times you have provided a reliable source to support your edit was 0. "But I really like inventing and attributing names for people in foreign languages" is not a reason to ignore WP:OR, and so far all your contributions here (as well as those of QalasQalas above) amount to nothing more than this. --JBL (talk) 22:48, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::See Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:01, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Yes you should read that page, which helpfully repeats basic policy: {{tq|all material that is either challenged or likely to be challenged must be cited}}. --JBL (talk) 23:05, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::A transliteration, with the most directly related foreign language equivalent, does not need a source. It is not a contentious or controversial piece of material, and it is not a translation (which could leave room up for interpretation). Though of course the spelling of a transliteration might also potentially have differing versions, and if you ever have a different spelling in any instance that you'd like to offer up, I will always be open to seeing it and comparing. Otherwise, this Somali instance of transliteration, as well as your other claimed "10 times" were most likely non-constructive removals of constructive edits. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:06, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::Which also links to two other pages: Wikipedia:Likely to be challenged and Wikipedia:Verifiability#Responsibility for providing citations.

::::::::::::In essence, your point holds up for when the material is not verifiable. Transliterations are one of the most easily verifiable pieces of non-controversial information there is. To be clear, this is not the same as translations. I hope I am clear on that. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:10, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::Normally, out of around 70,000 edits, I would say these are not controversial. Yes, invariably if you edit ANYTHING long enough, someone, somewhere, somehow has an issue with literally anything eventually... but by and large, your point again is based on when you "add a controversial fact to an article" citing from WP:LIKELY. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:12, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:This seems similar to the Ayaan Hirsi Ali article. Is the proposal to put the equivalent of (Somali: Ayaan Xirsi Cali) in the intro for Omar? Marquardtika (talk) 15:04, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::[https://www.bbc.com/somali/war-50017489 Here is a source for Ilhaan Cabdullaahi Cumar] FYI. Marquardtika (talk) 15:11, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:::"Is the proposal to put the equivalent of (Somali: Ayaan Xirsi Cali) in the intro for Omar?" Yes. That is the suggestion, and also thanks for linking to a reliable source. Iljhgtn (talk) 16:47, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Thanks. And could someone explain the objection to including this? Marquardtika (talk) 18:45, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::I think it should be included, but if I were to steelman the case it would be this:

:::::{{tq|Including the foreign language equivalent for Ilhan Omar of any foreign language is inappropriate because she is an American politician. It makes Omar appear more foreign to call include her birth nation that she is no longer representing (Somalia). Also, Arabic is not spoken primarily among Somalis (worth fact checking additionally on that claim) so Arabic, should not be included either. Lastly, there are not an abundance of reliable sources that directly use this foreign language equivalent in either Somali or Arabic, therefore we should not include them for that reason.}}

:::::Personally, I think the above statement falls short on many levels, and I have argued as much above, but that is the "objection" as far as I understand it to "including" the Somali (or Arabic) foreign language equivalents. I think both could and should be potentially included, but if only one were to be, it should be Somali. If both were to be included, it should be Somali first, followed by Arabic. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:01, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{ping|Marquardtika}} If you are interested, you can read the past discussions about her name here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and above. The question of how/whether to include her Somali ethnicity/nationality is distinct but related; it has been discussed here, here, here, here and here. (This was an attempt to be comprehensive; if I've missed any past discussions, I apologize.)

:::::About the source you included: it is undoubtedly a reliably published source, but its relationship to the statement "Ilhan Omar's Somali name is [blah]" is that it is written in Somali and that it uses the string [blah] to refer to her. In isolation, this is not actually convincing evidence of the statement, since (for example) I'm sure someone has written about Omar in a reliable source published in Korean, rendering her name in Hangul, but there is no question that she does not "have a Korean name" in the sense that is relevant here. Obviously the phrase in isolation is doing a lot of work the previous sentence, because the idea that Omar "has a Somali name" (as opposed to Korean) is not ridiculous, indeed it's quite plausible. Somali is written in the Latin alphabet; so to me personally it is also quite plausible that Ilhan Omar's Somali name is "Ilhan Omar". The level of evidence (as opposed to unsupported assertion) that has been brought to bear on this question in the past 8 years of discussions about it by people wanting to add "her Somali name" is very, very close to 0. Many of these people (like Iljhgtn) have also advanced, with the same confidence, style of argumentation, and level of evidence, the much less plausible idea that Omar "has an Arabic name". And Iljhgtn in particular also makes a habit of going around to articles inventing Hebrew names for people in a way that (to me) closely resembles hoaxing (to the extent that I've spent some time in the past convincing myself that they're probably not a sock-puppet of User:Jagged 85). Ultimately, my personal attitude about this is that if a couple of editors (including possibly you), who do not have a history that makes them completely untrustworthy on this point, produce a plausible source-based account that "Ilhan Omar has a Somali name and it is [some particular string different from 'Ilhan Omar']", I will not fight them (you) about it. --JBL (talk) 23:17, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::Accusation of being a sock puppet without evidence is a direct violation of WP:Casting aspersions. I have tried to be peaceful with you, but I think ANI may be necessary now. Iljhgtn (talk) 00:01, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::: This is not an accusation of sock-puppetry. --JBL (talk) 19:26, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose inserting any text in the Arabic alphabet into this article.—S Marshall T/C 08:22, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• :Arabic was one, and as I've said, I think that one could be withheld. The main arguments and support here are behind including Somali, not Arabic. Iljhgtn (talk) 13:34, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose adding text in Somali or Arabic. There's no need for it, and it can have an effect of delegitimizing her as an important American politician. NightHeron (talk) 12:31, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• :"There's no need for it, and it can have an effect of delegitimizing her as an important American politician." This would appear to be a mix of WP:OR and WP:Right great wrongs, but more than anything is just opinion since @Marquardtika did provide a reliable source that does use the Somali name for Ilhaan Omar. By the way, I am fine with leaving off the Arabic language name as no strong argument has been made for that inclusion. But a "Support" or "Oppose" !vote should clearly delineate between those two. Iljhgtn (talk) 13:37, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::No, it's not OR or "righting great wrongs". What I wrote is in line with WP:BLP, which tells us to be careful about what we put in a BLP that could have an unjustified negative effect. NightHeron (talk) 14:09, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Please cite directly from the policy so I can review your exact claim. Iljhgtn (talk) 14:15, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::::From WP:BLP: "Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages.[b] The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores the material." NightHeron (talk) 16:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::How is it "sensationalist" or a "titillating claim" to include a native name? Iljhgtn (talk) 18:35, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

:From a recent ANI dispute that arose I became aware of a past discussion from 5 years ago and am pinging all those involved in that earlier discussion:

:@Aryzad @SharabSalam @MelanieN @Zaathras @Eperoton

:If I missed anyone, my apologies, please feel free to add them to the pings. Iljhgtn (talk) 13:41, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose - This just plays on religious bigotry, of which she has been a victim previously. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:15, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Using a foreign spelling of her name would appear to readers as an attempt to discredit her status as an American citizen and legitimate member of Congress. Per neutrality, articles should not take positions on political issues. TFD (talk) 15:44, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• Comment: It would be helpful for those contributing to specify if they favor the inclusion of Somali or Arabic individually, or neither. Iljhgtn (talk) 15:49, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• Support (Somali only), Omar was born in Somalia and lived there until a teenager (moving to the USA in 1995). While she then later moved to Minnesotta, her current home, in 1997 (born in 1982). It is standard fare and perfectly neutral to include a foreign language equivalent for someone then in that case who has native ties to a foreign country which uses a non-English name to include that, secondarily, mentioned once in the lead. This is not bigotry and serves no purpose of making her to appear any more or less foreign or anything else, though those are also not policy-based arguments but seem to be entirely based on opinion. Omar is a naturalized U.S. citizen, full stop. Arabic though, I am increasingly convinced is not appropriate to be added to the lead and would not have support anyway as it also does not appear to even be spoken much in Somalia and it appears doubtful that Omar even would have an Arabic name, though it was already supported that she does have a Somali name (which of course makes sense given that she was born in Somalia and only moved to the U.S. in 1995, then MN in 1997). Iljhgtn (talk) 15:55, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• :(Just registering my comments in the form of a formal !vote since it appears to have caught on in the form of !votes above.) Iljhgtn (talk) 15:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• :Can you point to examples of other naturalized U.S. citizens where this is done, unless they first achieved notability in their home countries? TFD (talk) 17:00, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• :This is not crucial to your point, but it does say something about your general disregard for precision and accuracy that {{tq|[Omar] lived [in Somalia] until [she was] a teenager}} is false. --JBL (talk) 17:08, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::Wait? From what I saw, she moved at 12 or 13? If I am wrong, then not but more than months, but please point out the inaccuracy specifically please instead of continuing to cast aspersions. Iljhgtn (talk) 18:36, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::She left Somalia around the age of 9, moving to a refugee camp in Kenya, 1,000 miles away. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:57, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::In fact, on her website she says she was eight and spent four years in Kenya which btw has English and Swahili as official languages. (This article says she spent four years in Kenya.) TFD (talk) 19:19, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::: Right, thanks {{u|Objective3000}} and {{u|The Four Deuces}} for explaining. --JBL (talk) 19:26, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::From here, she was 12 when she moved to the United States, so my apologies, but nearly a teenager.. [https://omar.house.gov/media/in-the-news/ilhan-omars-american-dream-strong-enough-these-times From her page], "12-year-old Ilhan Abdullahi Omar arrived in the United States." Iljhgtn (talk) 19:38, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::If I might ask if we continue to cite whatever sources we are referencing as we continue the discussion it is helpful for checking these as any claim comes in. Iljhgtn (talk) 19:39, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::Have you read any of the three comments above yours? You said she left Somalia when she was a teenager; that is off by several years, not a matter of months! --JBL (talk) 19:41, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::Look. Please do not make it a point of criticism if I do not respond quickly enough on a talk page discussion to each of your points. I have a job and children to attend to as well. I will look at this more when I have time and read over each point carefully. Iljhgtn (talk) 22:55, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::No one has complained you haven't responded quickly enough. Did you read any of the comments (from O3000, TFD, or myself) that you've responded to in this thread? (FYI: you've made more than 100 edits to Wikipedia since my previous comment, spread across multiple hours on multiple days.) JBL (talk) 23:12, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::"...after I pointed them back to those explanations, they have simply gone silent and never acknowledged or corrected the error." Iljhgtn (talk) 23:15, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::::That's a complaint that you haven't responded at all. Tell me, who was off caring for your children during the 100 other edits you made while ignoring my question? JBL (talk) 23:29, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::::See. This is exactly the attitude I am talking about in terms of AGF. There are many different types of edits an editor can make and some are very low mental bandwidth edits whereas others require significant time and attention, research and background. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:38, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::::::Can you please ask me again what exactly is this "yes/no" question I seem to have missed and I'll give you the response if it doesn't require added research right now. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:39, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::::::"Have you read any of the three comments above yours?" is the yes-no question that you have not answered. (Because of your stonewalling you will now have to read a whole 15 lines of text instead of only 9 in order to find it in its appropriate context.) --JBL (talk) 17:40, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

• Comment Back to the point. There is a real question on how to handle this. I recall having seen Chinese, Korean, and Japanese reps having their name also in those languages. Some were born in the respective country, some not.

::# Young Oak Kim (Korean: 최영옥)

::# Ted Win-Ping Lieu (Chinese: 劉雲平)

::# Victoria Spartz Kulheyko (Ukrainian: Вікторія Кульгейко)

:Should all of these be removed as well?

:I have wondered about this for years, and we probably should have a standard rule on this. Ive also come upon this question with some biographicals Ive created or worked on. There are some Polish-born Jews who wrote in Yiddish and in some cases Ive been unsure which languages to name or both or neither. And there aren't always sources. A lot of these arent sourced on any page, although at least with a Yiddish author one can find a book they published.

:Also, looking at the history of who is advocating for Somali (and sometimes Arabic) versions of her name, they seem to be Somali (QalasQalas), Yemeni (SharabSalam), or deeply interested in the region (Aryzad). It does not in any way appear malicious. If you look at Category:American politicians of Somali descent, eight of the fourteen have Somali names:

::# Munira Abdullahi

::# Omar Fateh

::# Hodan Hassan

::# Kayse Jama

::# Ismail Mohamed (Ohio politician)

::# Zaynab Mohamed

::# Mohamud Noor

::# Abdi Warsame

:How many are sourced? Is this playing on religious bigotry or an attempt to discredit them? And you could just as well make the case that including her middle name makes her look more foreign. This is sounds like POV pushing to even claim that. The idea that someone would look at an article lead, and because it had a name in another language, hate someone more, is patently ridiculous. And it seems like our Somali editors are for inclusion. Metallurgist (talk) 07:13, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:* Some context. There is a long history of editors, whether they be motivated by racism, xenophobia, religious intolerance or just politics, to delegitimise Omar's standing as an American politician or simply to add negative information and conspiracy theories, often generated by fake news sites (notably Project Veritas) or right-wing blogs - and, in at least one case, Donald Trump. The thing about her "name" goes back at least six years, to this discussion. However, the issue is that we still don't have a reliable source that she even has a Somali name, let alone whether she uses one, and a BBC transliteration of her name is not a reliable source for this. It would, without such a source, be a BLP violation to include such in her article. Black Kite (talk) 07:40, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::* Oh, and I've looked at those politicians above and found that (a) those Somali names were all added last December by User:Iljhgtn with somewhat deceptive edit summaries [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Munira_Abdullahi&diff=1263404778&oldid=1260845188], and (b) they're all unsourced as well. Black Kite (talk) 08:13, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::*:This is not the correct place to make global judgements. However: every foreign-language name that Iljhgtn has ever added to any article should be removed, because their dismissive attitude towards WP:OR and WP:RS means that it is impossible to distinguish their edits from hoaxing. --JBL (talk) 17:37, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::*:I thought about that and looked at a few, but didnt see the username on those. I must have picked the lucky ones. I looked again now, and it seems some were, but three were done before they even had an account. I also found that [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mohamud_Noor&oldid=1043624243 Mohamud Noor] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdi_Warsame&oldid=581440207 Abdi Warsame] appear to have possibly edited their own pages at one point. Metallurgist (talk) 19:28, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Thats a red herring. How is BBC a transliteration? What would constitute proof? Are you contending that she had no name at all until she was in Kenya or the United States? This strikes me as Wikipedia:I just don't like it because of who she is. I have yet to see disputes of the foreign names of Lieu, Kim, Spartz etc. Should those be removed because they aren't sourced? This issue needs more clear guidance. Ive seen unrelated pages with three languages in the lead, and wondered about it being excessive. However, there does seem to be a movement to footnote these. Metallurgist (talk) 18:42, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I am willing to table my involvement in this particular discussion for the most part, but would like to see some of the editors involved here, even those that I might have had disagreements with, join the talk page over at MOS:LEAD where I had first sought to have clear rules on adding or not adding this language to leads and infoboxes (and based on what level of sourcing is also a perfectly acceptable comment to add and deal with). Whatever the end result of that is, I would happily follow. But fighting this out page by page is beyond onerous. Iljhgtn (talk) 18:48, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:::: For all we know Omar's "Somali name" is just that - "Ilhan Omar". The point being that we don't know what it is, and if she hasn't used it then that's a BLP violation. And yes, if those names aren't sourced they should be removed. That's Wikipedia sourcing 101. Black Kite (talk) 19:36, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:* I would imagine the statement "The idea that someone would look at an article lead, and because it had a name in another language, hate someone more, is patently ridiculous." is probably wrong, unfortunately. The impact of the 'foreignness' of names on recruitment is quite a well-studied field. Anything that changes the amount of apparent 'foreignness' will probably have an impact on various subpopulations of readers. Whether Wikipedia should care, I have no idea. Sean.hoyland (talk) 07:53, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:*:Much like the insistence of some to use and even emphasize Obama's middle name, Hussein, as if people wouldn't know who Obama is without that added. O3000, Ret. (talk) 10:50, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:*:It seems relative to 5P. From what I gleaned of this [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#non-English_language_guidance_for_infobox discussion], foreign names are only DUE in the lead if certain conditions are met, such as RS and NPOV. Adding things that ignore said requirements or MOS guidelines, including unintentional and or more implicit violations, may also be considered a NOTHERE issue. Cheers. DN (talk) 18:05, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:*:"The impact of the 'foreignness' of names on recruitment is quite a well-studied field." Sounds like a good topic for an article! Metallurgist (talk) 19:05, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:Oppose I'm not convinced by the comments on combatting bigotry (except the attempts to include Arabic, which make no sense and seem bigoted on their face). I nonetheless see no high-quality sourcing for the inclusion of a Somali name. Per MOS:NAME, a foreign-language name would be worth inclusion if we have high-quality sourcing that a different spelling in Somali is how she has often or historically referred to herself. Many American immigrants choose to spell and pronounce their own names with the orthography and phonetics of their mother tongue, and we should respect that. Omar doesn't, though. She always spells her name as we have it in the article, and the only mention I've seen of an alternate spelling is {{sfnlink|Ilhan Omar|2020|article=Ilhan Omar|text=her tweet}} saying her given name used to be spelled with an "m" which she switched to an "n". This is evidence that she prefers and exclusively uses "Ilhan Omar" and strong (possibly unrefutable) evidence against the proposed Somali name of "Ilhaan", which is a made-up transliteration divorced from her actual biography. Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 16:57, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Ilhan Omar|answered=yes}}

On April 25, 2025, Representative Ilhan Omar (D-MN) responded to a question from a Daily Caller reporter outside the U.S. Capitol with a profane remark. When asked whether more Democratic colleagues should travel to El Salvador to support Kilmar Abrego Garcia, an alleged MS-13 member who had been deported, Omar replied, "I think you should f--- off." The exchange drew media attention and sparked debate about press interactions and political discourse.

2603:8000:1000:DC4:E827:8616:FC54:8959 (talk) 22:47, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{not done}}. Please provide a reliable source. Wikipedia has a strict policy on biographies of living people. I have deactivated the edit request (marked it as answered). If you would like to provide a source and rerequest your edit, you can change the template parameter "answered=" from "yes" to "no" or simply insert a new template. 🌳 Balsam Cottonwood (talk) ♰ 00:45, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

::I saw the encounter on social media. I oppose adding any mention of it. This is an incredibly minor event and is not "sparking debate" about anything. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:57, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Lots of politicians on both sides of the aisle receive death threats regularly, including credible ones, and this is not in the leads of their pages. The incident linked as a source in this article’s lead was significantly less prominent than the thwarted attacks on politicians like Nancy Pelosi, AOC, or even Donald Trump. Politicians like Governor Whitmer who have notable attacks have the incident detailed in their leads, not just a generic “they have been attacked before”. POC politicians also regularly receive racist remarks from opponents but Omar is the only one with it in the lead of the article. This whole line feels out of place and while I am not saying the incidents should be removed from the article in their respective sections, but the generic line like “she receives death threats” in the beginning of the article is unnecessary. If it is necessary for the introduction to say all this, then it should be more fleshed out. 2600:1700:89C6:2000:521:C7D9:AA5C:A424 (talk) 23:38, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:IP, I've removed that bit, it's covered below and not so significant as to justify its removal. JayCubby 01:31, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:The related section in the text has thirteen paragraphs, making it a significant part of the article. You can add to that the death list of the recent alleged Minnesota assassin included Omar's name. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:15, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

::I'm inclined to agree with O3000: "being a public figure", especially in politics, comes with a certain amount of awful crap, and so it doesn't make sense to mention it on every biography of any congressperson who has ever had a death threat written about once in the news. But in Omar's case the quantity, nature, and sources all have remarkable features, and make up a nontrivial portion of the biography; it seems odd not to have any mention of that in the introduction. --JBL (talk) 23:08, 15 June 2025 (UTC)