Talk:Incel#Telegraph

We should clarify that "mostly white" only applies to United States and Canada, as the samples in the cited sources are selected from these two countries. With the rise of incel culture in Asia, especially China and South Korea, "mostly white" doesn't represent a worldwide view of the subject. KomradeRice (talk) 17:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

:Credible sources say mostly white. Your WP:OR is irrelevant. 24.126.13.54 (talk) 23:02, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

::En latam tambien crece, mire al temach mi compa pa entenderlo DuxPepe (talk) 17:58, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

The term "incel" is self-named. So, it can't be pejorative. The category should be removed. 178.121.24.248 (talk) 14:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

:It can be used in a pejorative context, usually in comparison with "chads". Harryhenry1 (talk) 06:05, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

::Don't disagree but the article doesn't seem to convey that, or at the very least doesn't say "pejorative", in a particularly meaningful way outside of a single sentence. Most I could find was {{tq|"Incel" has also come to be used as an insult against people who do not necessarily identify with the subculture, but who are perceived to be sexually inexperienced, undesirable, or unpopular.[144][145]}} Like any virtue or vice, they can always be used in some pejorative sense - but to categorise them as such probably needs more than a couple of pop-culture sources. Koncorde (talk) 14:00, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:::Concur. Memes on twitter dot com are not encyclopedically relevant. If "Incel" is being used pejoratively we need reliable sources that say so. Simonm223 (talk) 14:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

::::

::::Well, there is a clear consensus. Can anyone remove the category? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.120.0.61 (talk) 21:03, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

:::How does "'Incel' has also come to be used as an insult" not support the inclusion of the category? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 21:25, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

::::See above. There is nothing to add. Almost any term (for example, feminist) can be used in pejorative sence, but it doesn't mean that term is pejorative. 178.121.0.83 (talk) 10:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

:::: Also agree it would require a reliable source. Category removed. Mathglot (talk) 10:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

{{ping|ModernDaySlavery}} Hello.

This is regarding [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Incel&diff=prev&oldid=1269515116 this revert].

• {{Cite journal |last=Prażmo |first=Ewelina |date=June 24, 2024 |title=Affixmaxxing or the emergence of new derivational affixes in online discourse: A construction morphology approach |url=https://topling.ukf.sk/index.php/topling/article/view/143 |journal=Topics in Linguistics |volume=25 |issue=1 |pages=70–82 |doi=10.17846/topling-2024-0005|doi-access=free }}

The source lists dozens and dozens of terms, but "gynocel", "gynecomastiacel", and "mentalcel" are not given any particular weight or emphasis. The source lists eighty-one "_cell" terms, and implies that this is not a comprehensive list. None of the three you have chosen are specifically defined by the source, so the meanings are only indirectly implied from context. The source cannot be used for these definitions, nor to imply that these terms are specifically significant.

Topics in Linguistics (published by the Constantine the Philosopher University in Nitra), is obscure. All sources are judged in context. Why this source for these arbitrarily-selected terms?

Your edit summary that this is a "commonly used term in incel community" is a form of original research. If you have a reliable source saying these terms are commonly used, please cite that source. Grayfell (talk) 02:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/news/incels-are-not-particularly-right-wing-or-white-but-they-are-extremely-depressed-anxious-and-lonely-according-to-new-research 2409:40E5:1:3B84:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 16:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

:That says they're still majority white. Also the author uses convenience sampling so we can't draw many firm conclusions EvergreenFir (talk) 16:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

::Also the paper in question is bad in a whole bunch of other methodological ways. For instance: tiny sample sizes. Simonm223 (talk) 16:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|ModernDaySlavery}} Hello. Start using article talk pages, please.

Regarding [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Incel&diff=prev&oldid=1270911929 this revert], thanks for fixing the typo, but the cited source doesn't describe 'chadfishing' as science. Per the source: {{tq|One way that incels weaponize their subordination is by Chadfishing, creating a fake dating profile with an attractive man’s photo and then mistreating women who match with the profile. In a thread receiving more than 100 replies...}}[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08912432221128545]

It the goes on to discuss how some incels use this as proof of their own inferiority, but nothing about this forum chatter can be described as science. Further, the source doesn't say chadfishing is motivated by science, the source clearly attributes this behavior to "{{tq|weaponized subordination, wherein men strategically use their perceived subordinate masculine status to legitimate their degradation of women.}}"[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08912432221128545] Again the goal is to degrade women, not to perform science. This is, maybe, a form of pseudoscience, but even that would need to be more clearly spelled out by a reliable source. Grayfell (talk) 21:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The Blackpill section gives a quote by Zack Beauchamp, who expressed a judgment over this set of beliefs. I find myself questioning whether this judgment has any encyclopedic value: the cited article is of a journalistic nature, not scientific, and its author is not a sociology scholar.

I am afraid that the section is not delivering a neutral POV, but rather some "common sense" about a set of beliefs that is "uncommon sense". Granted, the quote definitely describes the characteristics of many blackpilled men, but the question is whether those characteristics are inevitable in all people who share those beliefs. I tend to think that a man doesn't necessarily have to oppose women's sexual emancipation just because he believes he's biologically doomed to be celibate.

I wouldn't want to suggest that the quote should be entirely removed, but it should be clearly flagged for what it is: an opinion piece. Xelloss (talk) 19:38, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

:The quote in question:

:{{quote|The black pill has been described by Vox correspondent Zack Beauchamp as "a profoundly sexist ideology that ... amounts to a fundamental rejection of women's sexual emancipation, labeling women shallow, cruel creatures who will choose only the most attractive men if given the choice".}}

:The use of this quote aligns with MOS:QUOTEPOV, and you have not presented any evidence from other reliable sources to suggest that it is inaccurate. Moreover, the underlying Beauchamp article isn't some puff piece; it's a deeply researched multi-thousand word deep dive into the topic. So, I don't see a problem with the quote. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 21:14, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

::Your reply doesn't really answer my objection.

::I have stated that the quote is from an article of journalistic, not scientific nature, and nothing in your words proves the opposite.

::In other words, you're reversing the burden of proof: it's not up to me to show that there are inaccuracies in that quote, but up to whoever wants the quote in this page to prove that it reflects scientific consensus. The fact that it is a "multi-thousand word dive" (dive!) is irrelevant, when it lacks reputable scholarly citations.

::Since when we publish opinions instead of science on Wikipedia? Xelloss (talk) 13:27, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

:::I'd encourage you to read more about how Wikipedia defines reliable sources. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 19:35, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

::::This is entirely dismissive, admin. I'm not disputing that the opinion may be cited, but that the way this article is written doesn't clarify that it is an opinion. It invites the reader to take a summary judgment at face value, as if it were of a scientific nature.

::::Except that it's not of a scientific nature. Xelloss (talk) 20:45, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{re|Xelloss}} Ed has already explained that the quote aligns with MOS:QUOTEPOV (and I agree, as well as WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV). How would you propose rephrasing that section? I don't see how there is any implication that this is some sort of scientific statement, particularly given that Beauchamp is identified as a Vox correspondent in-text. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 20:58, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

::::::I have already addressed the issue about guidelines by explaining that the matter is not about whether this quote is allowed, but how it should be framed.

::::::Since you are asking me how I would rephrase it, I'll take a few days to look into that matter. Xelloss (talk) 13:18, 31 January 2025 (UTC)

The article needs a section dedicated to proving that the black pill ideology is objectively false using scientific studies. It is crucial to show young men that the extreme claims made by hardcore incels are incorrect and that this ideology can be extremely dangerous. It can lead to depression, body dysmorphia, harmful practices like bone-smashing, and, in extreme cases, even suicide or violent outbursts.

The idea that one's lack of a romantic partner is solely due to physical appearance is an oversimplification. In reality, the reasons are often far more complex. Most people regardless their gender experience periods of involuntary celibacy at some point in their lives. The real question is: should this define who you are? Should a struggle confine you? The black pill ideology teaches that it does, which is why it is so important to debunk it.

I strongly urge you to include a section dedicated to exposing the flaws of the black pill with factual, scientific evidence. Cherubionita (talk) 23:33, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

:"lack of a romantic partner is solely due to physical appearance" That is news to me. When it comes to attracting potential romantic partners, the socioeconomic status always seems to be more important than the physical appearance. To paraphrase something that my brother has been repeating for the last 30 or 40 years: "the one with the greatest wealth gets the greater number of lovers. The one with no wealth gets no love." Dimadick (talk) 21:17, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

::Well you don't have to convince me about that black pill is not real! :) Cherubionita (talk) 18:07, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

:Hi, Cherubionita, a prerequisite for any such section would be reliable sources to support it. *We* as Wikipedia editors cannot be the ones to debunk anything; we can only relay the debunking done by reliable sources. Do you have any? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 22:22, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

::I can provide you only scientific studies that indirectly debunk every claims of the black pill. Like this one: https://datepsychology.com/male-attractiveness-and-sexual-partner-count/

::As you can see according to numerous studies male attractiveness not a good indicator of success with women. It is a minimal difference between the most attractive and the least attractive men sexual partner count by life time.

::I can provide a compilation about these to debunk one by one every claims that black pill has. Cherubionita (talk) 18:11, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

:::While I personally agree with you that the various incel pills are entirely nonsense, the source you provided looks to be WP:SPS - as such it's of limited use within the context of Wikipedia. Simonm223 (talk) 19:43, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

{{od}}Hey Cherubionita, could not agree more that countering the black pill is vital. Id class it as a second order problem on a level with AI & climate change. While it may be a net consoling & protective influence to a small minority, it's a clear net negative for tens of millions of young men & women across the world.

This said refuting the black pill effectively is a little more challenging than perhaps meets the eye. Even if your link was a meta-study in a top journal rather than just a blog, us including it in our article might do more harm than good. The article is largely aiming to disprove the popular wisdom that the type of men incel call Chads commonly have the most sexual partners. It's not trying to disprove the central black pill point that Incel's romantic status results from their looks. In fact, parts of it reinforce the black pill. Direct quote: {{tq|Additionally, it may mean that being mid is sufficient. The “looks test” is binary. You pass it, you’re in, and from that point you can choose to pursue casual sex or you can choose to have a relationship. You meet the threshold..}} with the obvious corollary that if you're below mid and you don't pass the threshold , you're not in the game and aren't going to get any sex, just as the black pill prophets preach.

It would sadly likely be no more effective than to repeat common gaslighting from the BrazillianMartian IT era "TeeHee Inkwell! Looks don't matter silly! I'd rather date an ugly 5'4" Janitor who is kind, than a Brad Pit lookalike who is mean. It just so happens I'm dating a 6'3" Timothée Chadamet type, but the only reason I'm with him is his caring personality."

Let's review how your concern is covered in the top tier reliable sources - as Writ Keeper is saying these are really important if you want to change content here on Wikipedia. As of 2025, you get a largely different picture depending on what discipline you look at. In sociology and related fields, the attitude to incels remains broadly hostile, with little analyses of value. Albeit things have improved a little in recent years e.g as per this relatively compassionate 2024 systematic review: [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12144-024-06236-6 The incel phenomenon: A systematic scoping review] . (This one is open access and you can read for free, other sources are behind paywalls unfortuneatly)

The CVE and especially Cognitive science fields mostly take a much more sympathetic and insightful view on incels. It was from CVE that we had [https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/jss/vol14/iss2/5/ probably the first journal article to discuss the need to refute the blackpill in a sensible way] (2021). As the below review level articles show, in Psychiatry there's much emphases on incels wellbeing and promoting their best interests, including mentioning the importance of helping them move beyond their black pill outlook, but there's little in the way of actual debunking of core black pill concepts:

[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-022-10031-5 Psychosocial Characteristics of Involuntary Celibates (Incels): A Review of Empirical Research and Assessment of the Potential Implications of Research on Adult Virginity and Late Sexual Onset] or

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36394688/ Involuntary Celibacy: A Review of Incel Ideology and Experiences with Dating, Rejection, and Associated Mental Health and Emotional Sequelae]

This just released study does specifically debunk certain black pill attitudes: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886925000030?via%3Dihub Seeing through the black-pill: Incels are wrong about what people think of them] But if focuses on showing that how contrary to what Incels think, the general public is largely sympathetic to incels, would like them to have romantic success, and mostly doesnt blame them for their predicament. But even if incels believed this (& ~90% of hardcore incels won't IMO) I don't think it speaks to your central concern.

As you suggest, there are indeed extreme incels who claim a mans looks are the only thing that matters for dating success, with some even saying it's been like that forever. Which would be contrary to the finding of virtual every single 20th century study that's considered this question. But pointing this out is only going to debunk the weaker versions of black pill ideology, making black pill overall even more potent. The smarter research cells already know a mans looks used to be far less important, having reviewed for example the Personal sections of late 19th & early 20th century newspapers, where they report that single women often said they don't care about looks , and never give good looks or height as a required characteristic- just good character, money and sometimes status or class. But the world has changed since then. Young women now earn [https://britishbusinessexcellenceawards.co.uk/from-the-awards/new-research-shows-uks-gender-pay-gap-reverses-as-young-women-now-out-earn-men 9% more than young men across the UK], with a similar situation existing in some US localities (though not at State level AFAIK, and certainly not nationwide.) A minimal level of good looks is now considerably more important for a young man's dating success than it was even 15 years back. There's no up to date high quality source to refute this unfortunately, nor is there likely to be for some years (though would love to be wrong.) Countering the black pill here needs some subtlety, though I'm going to go out on a limb and say you have been helpful in this regard. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:48, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

I am writing to discuss the phrase in the lead section that describes the incel subculture as "racially diverse, but mostly white,". I believe this descriptor might be inaccurate based on the very first source cited for that claim (https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/news/incels-are-not-particularly-right-wing-or-white-but-they-are-extremely-depressed-anxious-and-lonely-according-to-new-research). The article from liberalarts.utexas.edu explicitly states in its title, "'Incels' are not particularly right-wing or white, but they are extremely depressed, anxious, and lonely, according to new research"

Further research, such as an online poll conducted by the Anti-Defamation League in 2020, found that while roughly 55% of respondents identified as white or Caucasian, the remaining 45% were from various other racial and ethnic groups (https://www.adl.org/resources/article/online-poll-results-provide-new-insights-incel-community). Additionally, a 2024 report by the UK government on predicting harm among incels found that in their US and UK sample, while the majority were white (58.1%), 42% self-identified as a person of colour (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/predicting-harm-among-incels-involuntary-celibates/predicting-harm-among-incels-involuntary-celibates-the-roles-of-mental-health-ideological-belief-and-social-networking-accessible).

Given that the first cited source directly contradicts the "mostly white" claim and other reliable sources indicate significant racial diversity within the incel subculture, I propose revising this sentence in the lead section to more accurately reflect the available evidence. Perhaps something like: "Incel... is a term associated with a mostly online subculture of people (racially diverse and mostly male and heterosexual)..." or a more nuanced description that reflects the findings of the cited research.

Phykings (talk) 00:25, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

:This...is...actually extremely well argued. GMG^talk 00:05, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you. Since there was a lot of discussion on this topic and it seemed somewhat controversial on this page, I wanted to look into it. (I'm the same user now writing from another account.).

::I've now completed a review of the sources cited specifically for the claim that the incel subculture is "mostly white" in the lead section. I have found that the findings from these sources do not consistently support this descriptor:

::* The first source (liberalarts.utexas.edu), as previously noted, appears directly contradictory to the claim it is cited for.

::* The Washington Post and NBC News (2018) sources seem to provide anecdotal quotes rather than comprehensive data-driven conclusions about the subculture. The Washington Post also references a 2001 study of a small sample (82 individuals), which provides old and limited data.

::* The ADL (2020) poll, as previously discussed, indicates significant racial diversity, with 45% identifying as non-white, a finding the ADL itself describes as adding "nuance" rather than strongly confirming "mostly white."

::* The Guardian, The Atlantic, and CBC.ca (2018) sources, based on what i have seen, do not appear to even mention demographic data regarding the overall racial composition of the subculture.

::Additionally, other research I found, such as "Characteristics of Incel Forum Users: Social Network Analysis and Chronological Posting Patterns" by Stijelja & Mishara (Tandfonline, 2023) (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1057610X.2023.2208892#abstract), notes that survey-based studies "suggest that Incels... who do not differ demographically from the broader population based on geographical, ethnic, or religious identification data."

::Based on this review of the cited sources and additional research, it seems the evidence does not strongly support the current "mostly white" characterization.

::Thanks again for your time. DomitorVesti (talk) 04:25, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

• Just to be clear, I'm good to change this and will do so if nobody takes exception. GMG^talk 21:38, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::The lead should summarize the body, specifically Incel#Demographics. I can see a case for removing this from the lead. If they 'do not differ demographically' than mentioning racial diversity at all seems more confusing than helpful, and the body is a better place to add nuance. Grayfell (talk) 05:29, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

Taking on the points identified in the order they were presented:

1. My assumption is that the University of Texas source was cited because it showed that 63% of incels are white. At a nearly 2:1 ratio, that is indeed "mostly". Moreover, headlines are not a reliable source.
2. The Washington Post and NBC News provide quotes from "an associate professor of sociology at Grinnell College who studies subcultures and masculinity" and "the director of the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Intelligence Project", who are topic experts and probably shouldn't be contextualized as "anecdotal".
3. We could quibble over a preferred wording, but 55% is a majority and the definition of "mostly".
4. To the final three sources used in the article, I'm assuming that they have been accidentally mixed between citations 2 and 3 over time (I can see the latter in the source code but the reference doesn't seem to work in the article).
5. You gave a great quote from that study, but I see in the US Census that the US is 58.4% "[https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045224 White alone, not Hispanic or Latino]". Again, while we could quibble over the exact word to use, that's the definition of mostly.

Also, {{u|DomitorVesti}}, you're going to need to stick to one account in the future. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 07:07, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

:I understand that percentages like 55% or 63% are a majority. However, i fell that in this context the term "mostly" can imply a more overwhelming predominance. As you noted with the US Census data (58.4% White alone, not Hispanic or Latino), the general population in Western countries like the US and UK is already "mostly white." If the incel subculture's racial composition is roughly similar to the surrounding population (around 55-63% white compared to ~58% in the US and 64.3% white compared to 83.0% in the UK), is "mostly white" a particularly distinguishing characteristic of the subculture in the same way that being overwhelmingly male (studies consistently show 95%+) or predominantly heterosexual (though exact numbers might vary, certainly the subculture's focus is on heterosexual relationships) are? These latter characteristics describe a far greater deviation from general population demographics than the racial composition appears to.

:The ADL itself frames their own results as adding "nuance" to the common presumption of incels being largely white. Similarly, the University of Texas source mentions "A smaller proportion than would be expected by chance identified as white. (...)" These specific qualifications from the sources cited in the article suggest that "mostly white" might be too simplistic a descriptor without acknowledging the significant racial diversity present.

:On the point about the expert quotes from The Washington Post and NBC News: I agree that the individuals quoted are experts in relevant fields, and their insights are valuable. My point is simply that these appear in the articles as expert characterizations or observations (made in 2018 in the context of specific events) rather than as conclusions derived from comprehensive, broad-based demographic studies of the entire subculture's racial makeup. The survey and poll data provide a different type of evidence regarding the actual composition of communities studied more broadly. DomitorVesti (talk) 19:56, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

I am also in favor of removing "mostly white". As I stated in a discussion above, "mostly white" is easily misunderstood to mean "disproportionately white", which is the opposite of what the sources say. Race isn't a distinguishing characteristic of incels, so we have no business pretending that it is. The lead sentence especially should not be misrepresenting the cited sources. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:34, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

:It's been a month after this discussion was started and over a week since my reply above. I have removed "mostly white" from the lead. I wouldn't mind changing "racially diverse" to something like "racially in proportion to demographics" or something better. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:13, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

::Personally, I would support leaving any mention of race out of the lead. GnocchiFan (talk) 01:40, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Agreed. The sources did not strongly support "racially diverse" as a defining trait, nor is it clear what this precisely means, nor would the lead be the place to explain in detail. I've removed this from the lead. Grayfell (talk) 07:29, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

The 2025 British crime drama Adolescence revolves around the killing of a young girl by a 13-year-old boy, whom she bullied for being an incel. The third episode shows the boy expressing incel views, including his belief that he is ugly. AmericanPharaoh10 (talk) 05:05, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:Unless there is a source referring to that episode using the word "incel", or unless the episode explicitly refers to it, we can't include it. Doing so would violate WP:SYNTHESIS. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:22, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

::The second and third episodes explicitly use the word "incel," and reference other parts of this article like the 80-20 rule. AmericanPharaoh10 (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

::Here's a link to the clip of them using the word incel in episode 2

::https://clip.cafe/adolescence-2025/incel-katie-called-jamie-an-incel-what-does-mean/ AmericanPharaoh10 (talk) 20:57, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

:::A few articles discussing this.

:::[https://safeline.org.uk/news/how-netflixs-adolescence-exposes-the-rise-of-incel-ideology/]

:::[https://www.harpersbazaar.com/uk/culture/culture-news/a64251997/adolescence-netflix-review-incel/]

:::[https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c93nzv49dg2o] interesting take from a teenager.

:::[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/mar/19/adolescence-and-the-irrational-power-of-incel-ideas]

:::There is more but some of these might be suitable? Knitsey (talk) 21:05, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Those last three are suitable, coming from actual journalists. The first one isn't. Go ahead and summarize the gist of those sources in a sentence or two, and put it in the article. ~Anachronist (talk) 02:43, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Incel|answered=yes}}

I request that the graphic/image at the top of the page dedicated to "Incel" be removed or changed. The current image intentionally depicts the incel as noticeably short (not only shorter than the man, but shorter than the woman as well). Short men are routinely marginalized and negatively stereotyped in media. The current image would be better placed in your page about "Height Discrimination". Please consider changing or removing this harmful stereotype. Thank you for reading. 216.80.58.254 (talk) 18:16, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

: I disagree with the reasons provided, but I do think we should remove the image. I don't see it as an informative representation of the subject, which is not primarily about anger toward couples, and it's a particularly odd pairing with the current caption. Pinging {{u|SSCreader}}, who added the image. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:35, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

::I think if you changed the caption, it would be okay? The image itself seems relevant, otherwise its just text. SSCreader (talk) 01:22, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Not all topics can be easily illustrated, and this image is not doing that effectively. I've removed it per WP:BRD, but this discussion may conclude with a consensus to re-add it.Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 01:32, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Mi compa, habla tambien del Temach por pasar estas ideas incel DuxPepe (talk) 17:57, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:Necesitariamos fuentes fiables sobre el y su relevancia.--MattMauler (talk) 18:02, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:Tambien vea es.wikpedia.org y https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel si quieres contribuir en espanol--MattMauler (talk) 18:03, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

There's so much that's problematic with the just restored lede it would take thousands of words to fully explain. I'll focus mainly on the 66 word sentence starting. {{tq|The subculture's attitude can be characterized by...}} It's unattractive writing & has been described as "arguably the most expansive demonising sentence in the history of humanity." Those judgments are admittedly subjective, but its an objective fact that the sentence violate our WP:OR policy.

It's supported by the [https://cjc.utppublishing.com/doi/10.3138/cjc.2022-07-25 burton source] and the 'resentment-etc' cite bundle.

The Burton source admittedly supports characterising incels as misogynist. But broadly it's sympathetic to incels, as one would expect from Anthony Burton, a scholar of great integrity and intelligence. Burton doesn't support the rest of the sentence - actually he strongly contradicts parts of it. For example, after mentioning Minassian, he writes {{tq| almost all incels attempt to distance themselves from this violence}} . So allmost all the 66-word sentence generally has to rely on the 'resentment-etc' bundle, and sadly the WP:OR violations there are blatant.

To support the 'Misanthropy' adjective, the bundle lists just this [https://www.vox.com/world/2018/4/25/17277496/incel-toronto-attack-alek-minassian vox source]. It again supports characterising incels as misogynist, but says nothing about Misanthropy for incels as a whole. (At best, it weakly implies "radical incels" might be Misanthropes)

Similarly, to support the 'Self-pity' adjective, the bundle lists just this [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/04/26/incel-rebellion-alek-minassian-sexual-entitlement-mens-rights-elliot-rodger/550635002/ usa today source.] All it says about self-pity is {{tq|Posts from self-identified incels range from self-pitying (many call themselves ugly or even subhuman) to misogynistic to violent}} . That might support saying some incel posts express self-pity, but it's reaching way beyond what the source says to rely on it for the much stronger claim that the sub-culture is characterised by self-pity.

If it was just this article's effect on incel's best interests, I'd not be bothered. The POVs so extreme it's very likely helping them, in line with recent research finding a [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886925000030?via%3Dihub majority of the public are sympathetic towards incels]. Similarly, while a few police forces are still given nonsense briefing about incels being a significant terrorist threat, not a single Five Eyes intelligence mid ranker specialising in Digital believes that as of 2025. Attention is rightly all on [https://gnet-research.org/2024/04/04/behind-the-skull-mask-an-overview-of-militant-accelerationism/ these guys].

But sadly, over the past 7 years or so this article, and perhaps especially the 66 word sentence, has been extraordinarily successful in making incels seem super bad and interesting in the eyes of young academics. Hence incels now by far the most well known of all Manosphere sub-cultures. Almost all social scientists have heard of incels, whereas in some surveys only a minority are au fait with Red Pillers, and less than fifth know about MGTOW. Granted, Blackpill has had significant impact on the mainstream, and some incel memes have proved potent. But overall, less than 1% of young men frequently look at incel content. Whereas the vast majority have a least some exposure to broad-sense manosphere - red pill influencers are all over the big mainstream platforms, and far more appealing to the average lad than incels, who are now minor players at best when it comes to driving misogyny. With the massive rise in misogyny among GenZ this last few years, it's been great to see Adolescence at last drawing attention to the wider manosphere. The last thing we need is the old WP:OR violating lede sucking all the oxygen back out of wider Manosphere research. FeydHuxtable (talk) 22:42, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:I see from searching the archives that the "demonising" quote is quoting yourself a year ago, in a talk page conversation where you never answered Writ Keeper's points: {{tq|So, I'm curious what *actually* reliable sources you're intending to base any rework of this article on, because none of these seem to be both reliable and supportive of your intended changes}} and {{tq|If you want to rewrite this article to be about "unwanted celibacy", you're going to need sources that actually discuss it in those terms.}}

:If you think the sentence with common descriptors needs to be edited, that's perfectly well worth discussing (and I agree that it's overlong at this point). But that doesn't justify the complete reversion of the lead.

:You argue that this is the stable version, but I would argue it isn't — the previous version (or one very close to it) has been in place far longer, including while the article passed GA. The [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Incel&diff=next&oldid=1265680882 edit] several months ago that slashed the lead was never discussed, had no edit summary explaining why it was necessary, and moved portions of the lead into such strange places I wasn't even sure it was intentional.

:As for the rest of your comment, it's getting a bit exhausting constantly replying to your years-long habit of making unsupported claims that this Wikipedia article is somehow "bad for incels' best interests" (see, for example, this 2020 discussion) and, now, absurdly, influencing academia. As you know, Wikipedia articles follow the sourcing, not the other way around, and I would suspect it is far more likely that academics and counterterrorism researchers were interested by, say, the dozen or so mass killings over the last decade than by a Wikipedia article that you claim was so POV it dared to repeat the very well-sourced claim that incels are misogynist, misanthropic, etc.

:For next steps, I propose we restore the lead as of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Incel&diff=prev&oldid=1290610646 this revision] and then we can discuss the long descriptors sentence and consider trimming it down to a smaller list of the most widely used and less duplicative descriptors. Work for you? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 14:48, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::I prefer the longer lead as a starting point as we consider future tweaks. I am likely to respond much better to concerns based on Wikipedia policy/guideline or appeal to sources rather than trying to guess what is good or bad for incels. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:20, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Agreed with both GW and FFF. In fact, the lede as it is now has been described as "the most blandly undescriptive lead in the history of the entire cosmos". By me. Just now. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:21, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::::The shorter version is too short and is not that stable. There is, of course, room for improvement, but this ain't it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Incel&oldid=1290610646 This version] should be restored. OP's argument against has too much OR. Grayfell (talk) 22:13, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Hey GW, were I up for re-writing the article, I'd first humbly request a fresh start, or at least if we could set aside various unwise IAR arguments I made in previous years. A 2025 re-write could lean more on systematic reviews or at least other types of review level WP:RS:

• [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12144-024-06236-6 RS#1 The incel phenomenon: A systematic scoping review]
• [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-022-10031-5 RS#2 Psychosocial Characteristics of Involuntary Celibates (Incels): A Review of Empirical Research and Assessment of the Potential Implications of Research on Adult Virginity and Late Sexual Onset]
• [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36394688/ RS#3 Involuntary Celibacy: A Review of Incel Ideology and Experiences with Dating, Rejection, and Associated Mental Health and Emotional Sequelae]

As per first sentence of Review article , such high-tier WP:RE summarize "the current state of understanding on a topic" . Relying on review articles - as opposed to using our own discretion to pick out things to say from the many thousands of individual studies & newspaper articles - gives us a better chance of complying with WP:Due. Even on a page like this that's been lucky to have sustained attention from several gifted editors. This might be especially clear on the hostility:compassion dimension. RS#1 is free to read , but #2 & #3 are pay walled, so to quote an [https://journals.openedition.org/nuevomundo/95206 Louis Bachaud open access article] that cites them: {{tq|Research in psychiatry and mental health therefore insists on incels’ wellbeing and recognizes them as a particularly fragile demographic}} (BTW, Bachaud's maybe the most gifted manosphere & incel researcher out there. Maybe a bit early in his career to cite him much in our articles, but he's awesome at putting these things in their wider context and repeatedly summarises the ever evolving research space, so would recommend anyone who needs a deep understanding of incels & manosphere to follow his work. ) If this article could be allowed to reflect the POV found in review articles then I'd suspect there would be fewer editors arriving on this talk page complaining of excess hostility, perhaps making it a less exhausting job for the good WP:Stewards here.

Naturally, Incel is partly a popular topic, so I'd not suggest removeal of all cites to popular magazines etc, just to trim a few, especially the ones 5 or more years old. Unless perhaps in a section covering recent historical attitudes. Same with older individual studies. All this said GW, unless you personally requested it, I'm not sure it would be top of my priority to undertake such a re-write. We're not in 2020 or even 2024 anymore, certain +ve outcomes that NPOV coverage of this topic might have led to back then are now closed off, at least in my imperfect perception.

Focussing on the 'unwanted celibacy' thing might help illustrate the wider consideration here. I'd no longer look to include that at all. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886922003658 Here's the article] that first explicitly distinguished 'unwanted celibacy' (life circumstance) from 'involuntary celibacy' (sub-culture). The authors found that men suffering 'unwanted celibacy' but in no way associated with incel subculture still had significantly higher levels of misogyny than sexually satisfied men. There's been other studies that find an interesting U-shaped relationship, with those having both minimal & very high numbers of sexual partners showing higher misogyny than those in the middle. (On average, there are plenty of virgins & Cassonova's who are still very pro-woman.) But in the current climate I'd not see it as a net +ve for this sort of knowledge to be displayed more prominently. Most if not all who might react pro-socially already know - sensitive & experienced women become aware of the U shape relationship with out needing to hear about studies, in some cases consciously deciding to discriminate against chads as potential sex partners. (Only about 1 in 8 sexually active hetrosexual woman are like that though, so it's sadly not the sort of thing likely to show up in studies that could be used to refute the blackpill). In the current climate, others could perceive even a purely descriptive summary of the studies as an attempt to subtly guilt trip them into having sex with ugly men to reduce misogyny, & react in the other direction - this sort of effect would likely outweigh any benefits.

Ok, I typed all that in case you're especially interested in my views on this, per your curiosity emphasised in green (I normally only see editors do that to indicate a direct quote). And as it may be useful for future article improvement. But it's not germane to my current concerns, which are focussed on the lede and my strong preference for the shorter version. Your proposal doesn't work for me at all. In fact, I can't imagine anything worse than bringing back the 2024 lede and word-smithing the 66 word sentence. That would likely make it even more impactful and de-humanising! But I guess it doesn't matter what I think. I've already expressed my WP:OR concerns as clearly as I can, but have no support & 4 editors in good standing against. Much as I appreciate the graceful elements in your reply & the humour from others who chimed in above, I can't bring myself to self-revert. The best I can say is it would not be edit warring if anyone else does. FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:40, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

:I have no objections to these sources being incorporated into the article if they have more information to add (and would note that the Sparks source is already being used fairly heavily). They seem pretty good at a glance, though I've not yet read them in depth.

:I would reiterate that we really need to focus our work here on complying with Wikipedia policy, and not on what specific editors think would be beneficial to incels or any other group. Your conversation about a Wikipedia article influencing women either to "hav[e] sex with ugly men to reduce misogyny" or to "react in the other direction", combined with your discussions of influencing academia, are concerning from a WP:NPOV perspective. We are not in the business (nor should we be) of dictating where scientists direct their research, or trying to make members of incel communities feel better about themselves, or influencing women in their dating or sexual choices.

:Regarding the green, I was quoting. Those were comments by Writ Keeper in the previous discussion.

:I've restored the previous lead per the emerging consensus here, and am still open to suggestions on the sentence that seems to be the basis of most of your concerns with the lead, but would again encourage you to focus on Wikipedia policy around sourcing and NPOV rather than trying to make sentences less "impactful". GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 14:36, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

::While I'd much prefer deletion, WP:OR violations in the sentence could be eliminated simply by changing the opening words from "The subculture's attitude can be characterized by" > "The subculture's discourse has been criticised for including". With that change, no part of the sentence would be drawing a conclusion not supported by the sourcing. FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:09, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Can you expand on what exactly that change fixes in your mind? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 19:57, 17 May 2025 (UTC)