Talk:Irish Water#Requested move 5 June 2025

In mortal fear of seeming like an Irish Water apologist, if we're going to avoid issues of WP:UNDUE, this article possibly needs to have "history" or "operation" sections (possibly modeling on articles like Severn Trent or Los Angeles Department of Water and Power). Otherwise it could be perceived as a COATRACK for a criticism section. Granted it's early days (and claims of UNDUE might be highlighted as appropriate with a question like "what has the entity actually done - other than attract controversy"), but I'd welcome thoughts on this before trying to address. Guliolopez (talk) 15:36, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

This [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irish_Water&type=revision&diff=680373728&oldid=675613073 content was added recently]. I spent a few minutes trying to rework the content (to address some guideline variances). However, by the time I cut-back some of the inappropriate content, there was scarce little left. So I reluctantly reverted the entirety. In short, on each snippet of the addition:

1. "The introduction of a water utility, although common in many European countries" - this reads like commentary (and is unsupported by cite)
2. "in Ireland has proved to be a source of controversy and intense campaigning as indicated by press reports (see below for examples)." - this is already covered in the intro (and elsewhere). We're just restating.
3. "However, the Irish government has made concessions on the Irish Water charging regime," - this reads like WP:OR editorialising (are we trying to position an argument that public concerns are misplaced?)
4. "The Irish Independent reported that {copy and pasted paragraphs and bullets verbatim from the Irish Independent}" - we shouldn't have this level of content copied/pasted from sources. Certainly not in the lead. Per WP:NOFULLTEXT

Happy to discuss how best to address any issues - so the core message can be added. But the text (as was) wasn't inline with guidelines. Guliolopez (talk) 17:13, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

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Irish Water is now known as Uisce Éireann.

{{paid|employer=Uisce Éireann}} Beanmaker (talk) 12:46, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

:Hi. Thanks for your note. I'm not sure if you're proposing a specific change with your comment above, but the article content has reflected the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irish_Water&oldid=1134583501 name change since January 2023]. In terms of the article title, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OFFICIALNAME are both relevant. In short, unless or until the new official name becomes the accepted common name, Wikipedia convention is to use the common name. (And, given that many news sources still use "Irish Water" {[https://www.tipperarylive.ie/news/local-news/1149578/irish-water-is-working-on-issues-in-these-areas-of-tipperary.html][https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/councillors-urge-irish-water-to-revert-back-to-using-loughrea-lake-as-water-source-for-area/][https://www.southernstar.ie/local/stinky-stench-is-continuing-in-kinsale-4261517][https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-41068061.html][https://connachttribune.ie/irish-water-to-focus-on-gort-supply-issues/]}, it seems likely that the marketing/rebrand initiative has a ways to go yet.) Wikipedia will reflect (rather than preempt) the real-world change... Guliolopez (talk) 13:39, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

::Thanks for the prompt review. Google scrapes this page from Wikipedia into an infobox panel. It is unlikely the new name will be considered as 'accepted common name' while it is showing on such results as the old name - chicken and egg scenario! See below a sample of media articles which use the new name accordingly {[https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2023/04/20/clean-coasts-launches-the-enjoy-and-protect-campaign-in-mayo-to-mark-earth-day/][https://www.radiokerry.ie/news/castleisland-councillors-to-write-to-uisce-eireann-to-request-urgent-water-mains-works-327494][https://www.midlands103.com/news/midlands-news/310m-of-aged-water-pipes-to-be-replaced-in-the-midlands/][https://www.westmeathindependent.ie/2023/04/21/sod-turning-signals-official-start-of-e114m-athlone-sewerage-works/][https://www.thecork.ie/2023/04/15/uisce-eireanns-leakage-reduction-programme-continues-as-ballincollig-set-to-benefit/][https://www.derryjournal.com/news/environment/buncrana-sewerage-scheme-works-to-break-ground-in-coming-weeks-4110675][https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/03/24/niall-gleeson-of-uisce-eireann-if-anything-happened-to-the-river-liffey-we-would-be-in-trouble/]} Beanmaker (talk) 14:37, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

::Given both sets of sample articles, it could be argued that the "significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources" are using the new name. Cashew.wheel (talk) 14:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

:::Um, no, that's a selective sample. Google gives me 2.48 million hits for "Irish Water", 96,000 for both "Uisce Eireann" and "Uisce Éireann". Bing gives me 38 million hits for "Irish Water" (which will admittedly contain many false positives talking about the water in Ireland), compared to only 126,000 hits for "Uisce Eireann" and 89,000 for "Uisce Éireann". "Irish Water" is still very much the WP:COMMONNAME and that's unlikely to change any time soon. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:36, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

::::We don't need the amount of sources that use the new name to become the majority. That would take years after everyone uses the new name. Per WP:NAMECHANGE, because most reliable sources that have been published after the name change seem to use the new name, it is in fact the common name. Snowmanonahoe (talk) 15:42, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

:::::Ehh, looking at it again, I wouldn't say it's very clear cut whether it's the common name or not. Maybe I'll open an RM about it later today. Snowmanonahoe (talk) 15:51, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

::::::Thanks {{u|Snowmanonahoe}}. While, as noted, the name was officially changed in Jan 2023, I agree that it is far from clear cut (that the new OFFICIALNAME has yet become the COMMONNAME). Even if we completely ignore January and February, news sources from March onwards (including up to the last few days) still use the former name; See: [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22irish+water%22&biw=1455&bih=717&sxsrf=&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A3%2F1%2F2023%2Ccd_max%3A&tbm=nws GNews search - Irish Water - 1 Mar 2023 onwards] {{!}} [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22uisce+%C3%A9ireann%22&biw=1455&bih=717&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A3%2F1%2F2023&tbm=nws&sxsrf=&uact=5&oq=%22uisce+%C3%A9ireann%22&gs_lcp=&sclient=gws-wiz-news GNews search - Uisce Éireann - 1 Mar 2023 onwards]. While, granted, some of the recent news coverage uses both names (including in "the artist formerly known as..." type clarifications) many recent headlines still use the "old" name. Perhaps to ensure that readers (not yet aware of the rebrand) are clear on what topic is under discussion. Unless and until this is "clearer cut", I'm not sure a move is in order. (And, while I understand the PAID/COI editor's suggestion about Wikipedia being in a position to lay a chicken-egg here, that isn't how things work. Wikipedia follows the sources. It doesn't lead....) Guliolopez (talk) 16:12, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

::::Limiting a web search to only pages updated in the past month, there's [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22irish+water%22+-%22Uisce+%C3%89ireann%22+-%22Uisce+Eireann%22+-%22irish+water+safety%22&tbs=qdr:m&source=lnt&sa=X&biw=1846&bih=1088&dpr=1 ~26,000] references to "Irish Water", to [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Uisce+%C3%89ireann%22+OR+%22Uisce+Eireann%22&tbs=qdr:m&tbm=nws&source=lnt&sa=X&biw=1846&bih=1088&dpr=1 ~280] for "Uisce Éireann". Happy to keep the current common name. Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:14, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

{{unindent|::::::}} And now it moves - did the rest of us miss a further discussion on this, somewhere? SeoR (talk) 14:54, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

::Snap {{u|SeoR}}. I have tagged the moving editor in my note below. Perhaps a consensus/discussion occurred elsewhere... Guliolopez (talk) 14:57, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi {{u|Canterbury Tail}}. Can you confirm the basis for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Uisce_%C3%89ireann&diff=prev&oldid=1155293976 this move]? Was it based on consensus or COMMONNAME or something else? To my mind, in the very recent discussion above it was broadly confirmed that there was/is no immediate or definitive evidence that the (new) official name had/has yet become the COMMONNAME. And, until it is or becomes clear, that a move could possibly be premature. Your recent move doesn't seem to acknowledge or consider the above discussion. If not based on consensus/discussion, what was the move based on? (Frankly the move seems to be questionable relative to WP:RMUM. As there was a recent discussion about the title of the page that expressed concerns about the proposed title..... Guliolopez (talk) 14:54, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

:This is 100% my bad. I came across the article, saw it was very lightly edited and mostly ignored and thought the move to the official name would be uncontroversial. I never looked at the talk, and this is completely on me. I shall move it all back. Apologies. Canterbury Tail talk 15:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

::No harm no foul. Thanks {{u|Canterbury Tail}}. As noted by {{u|Snowmanonahoe}}, it will probably be worth revisiting this (in an RM discussion) in the coming weeks/months. Guliolopez (talk) 15:07, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• UE MasterLogo RGB FullColour.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:24, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

:If Beanmaker never returns, this can still be kept as fair use. On an unrelated note, Since we agree the old name is still more common, the old logo probably is as well, so that logo should probably be brought back somewhere else in the article. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 22:58, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

::...The email was in my spam for 2 weeks. God damn it. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 22:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Addendum: I'll continue voting no to a move while I still have to go to water.ie to get to their website! :-) Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 08:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

I would have expected the official website to remove all mentions of Irish Water by now (like X removing all mentions of Twitter). It's still on the title which currently says "Uisce Éireann (formerly Irish Water) | Water Utility | Uisce Éireann". The Twitter username is still Irish Water.

However, I feel as though UE (with/without the accent) is starting to replace IW in sources. I cannot find any mention of "Irish Water" on [https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/rsa-3-increase-in-motorists-using-mobile-devices-while-driving/ this site]. [https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-41448073.html this] is another example not mentioning the former name, although it still does say "X (formerly Twitter)" It's starting to replace IW, but I still think IW is common name.

While I do not plan to rename this or initiate an RM, it may be worth a revisit later. A bit like when I tried to rename something to Irish Rail. Since it's been over 6 months since the last RM discussion, it seems like just enough time to renominate (just as you cannot renominate an article for deletion within 6 months). JuniperChill (talk) 15:34, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

{{requested move/dated|Uisce Éireann}}

:Irish Water → {{no redirect|Uisce Éireann}} – Sorry for posting this less than 5 months after the previous discussion, but I think Uisce Éireann may have finally become this entity's WP:COMMONNAME. News reports seem to predominantly refer to it by its new name in the last few months, without the "formerly known as" or similar qualifier. That said, there are still some (mostly local/regional) news organisations that seem to refer to it as Irish Water, and there are a few examples of reports quoting an individual person who referred to it as Irish Water.

• A Google News Search for "uisce éireann" gives 4,670 results in the past month.
• A Google News Search for "irish water" gives 22,100 results in the past month. However, in many instances, the entity is in fact referred to as Uisce Éireann, but the article is included in the search results because it contains a reference to "Irish water supplies" or similar, or the article is included in a legacy "Irish Water" category/tag on the website in question. There are also unrelated articles about things like the Irish water polo cup, Irish water companies and Irish water safety. Only five out of the first 150 headlines actually refer to this entity as Irish Water.
• A Google News Search for "irish water" -uisce -éireann (i.e. articles containing the phrase "irish water" but excluding the words "uisce" or "éireann" gives 1,350 results in the past month. Obviously this isn't a perfect sample either, because it will exclude articles that refer to "Irish Water (officially Uisce Éireann)" or similar. These results also contain a high number of unrelated articles about Irish water polo, Irish water safety and Irish water bodies.

Gatepainter (talk) 12:29, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:Oppose – The Irish name has never gained traction, and Irish Water is still by far the WP:COMMONNAME. The WP:RECENTISM reflected in your google searches should not justify the change. Wait until it becomes more commonly used for now; no one refers to it as Uisce Éireann, unlike say: Telecom Éireann, An Post, Bord Gáis, etc Lf8u2 (talk) 23:59, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

::Can WP:RECENTISM be applied by in this instance, in circumstances where the consensus in previous discussions was that once Uisce Éireann becomes the WP:COMMON NAME the article should be moved? Surely by definition that means that it is specifically recent usage that should be considered.

::It is obviously not correct to say that "no one refers to it as Uisce Éireann", given the results of my searches referenced above - I assume you mean you personally haven't heard many people using the new name? Gatepainter (talk) 19:16, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

:::An objection based solely on RECENTISM is at odds with the Article titles policy section WP:NAMECHANGES which calls for giving more weight to reliable sources published after an official name change is announced. This doesn't tell us what the right threshold is, of course. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 23:57, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

The lead gives the following pronunciations of Uisce:

• English: {{IPAc-en|'|ɪ|ʃ|k|ə}} {{Respell|ISH|kuh}}
• Irish {{IPAc-ga|'|ɪ|ʃ|k|ə}} {{Respell|ISH|kya}}

Surely kya is not a faithful representation of /kə/ although I recognize there are language-specific IPA transcription conventions and of course variant pronunciations within a language. Wiktionary gives /ˈiʃcə/ and /ˈiʃcɪ/ as Irish pronunciations; the article Uisce beatha also uses /ˈɪʃcə/. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 14:19, 5 June 2025 (UTC)