Talk:Israeli apartheid#Page move

{{edit extended-protected|Israeli apartheid|answered=yes}}

"change"

In 1979, the Palestinian sociologist Elia Zureik said that while not de jure an apartheid state, Israeli society was characterized by a latent form of apartheid.[45] The concept emerged with some frequency in both academic and activist writings in the 1980s–90s,[46] when Uri Davis, Meron Benvenisti, Richard Locke, and Anthony Stewart used the term apartheid to describe Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

to

In 1979, the Palestinian sociologist Elia Zureik said that while not de jure an apartheid state, Israeli society was characterized by a latent form of apartheid.[45] Then in 1983 Canadian Anthropologist Richard Borshay Lee outlined the similarities between management of ethnic differences in the Israel and South African colonial settler states.[46] By the late 1980s, the concept of Israeli apartheid was emerging with some frequency in both academic and activist writings,[46] when Uri Davis, Meron Benvenisti, Richard Locke, and Anthony Stewart used the term apartheid to describe Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

46. Lee, R. Ethnicity, militarism and human rights: Israel and South Africa. Dialect Anthropol 8, 121–128 (1983). https://doi.org/10.1007/BF00249046 AnthonyMenk (talk) 16:04, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

: {{not done}} Hi AnthonyMenk . When investigating this request, I see that Lee does have a WP page, and this article does exist. However, when I google "Ethnicity, militarism and human rights: Israel and South Africa", the only results I get lead to Lee's article - not to any other articles or newspapers in which his article is discussed. Therefore, Lee's article is not notable enough to get a place on "Israeli apartheid". So I will close your request. If you think that I am wrong, please state your arguments and change the request back to "answered=no". Friendly, Lova Falk (talk) 14:34, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

I am not sure if this follows NPOV, or am I overreacting? CD967119 (talk) 21:33, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:It is very far from NPOV. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 00:17, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

Second word of the article is apartheid, please make a link of it to the corresponding article.

:See MOS:BOLDLINKAVOID. The 'crime of apartheid|a system of institutionalized segregation and discrimination' link, a more appropriate link, is right next to it. A link to the article about SA's apartheid system is in the 3rd paragraph of the lead. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:09, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

{{edit extended-protected|Israeli apartheid|answered=yes}}

I request for in the short description where it says "Israeli system of racial separation and discrimination" to be changed to "Israeli system of racial segregation and discrimination" since "segregation" is a more commonly used term. 81.77.66.151 (talk) 10:36, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:✅Done.--JasonMacker (talk) 17:08, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Political commentator Xaviaer DuRousseau wrote in the Jerusalem Post that Black people were pressured to view Israel as an 'apartheid state', which he called "an easily debunked lie". @Hemiauchenia please explain why his views are not allowed to be included in this article. This represents his experience as a young Black American. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 11:01, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:All the sources to prove it is not "an easy debunked lie" are referenced on this page. Due weight should be given to serious criticisms, but this is not one. 20WattSphere (talk) 14:10, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::I provided many views from prominent American and US political figures and every single one has been removed. All were sourced from WP:RS. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 00:10, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::That's a different question. 20WattSphere (talk) 00:31, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

"Israel has been occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip since the 1967 Six-Day War, which is now the longest military occupation in modern history, and in contravention of international law". 1) Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005. 2) The PA, which exercises civil and security control in Area A and some parts of Area B, generally does not allow Israeli citizens, including Jewish Israelis, to enter without prior coordination or permission. Similarly, Hamas did not allow Israelis to enter Gaza from 2007 to 2023. 3) The elements in #2) would constitute 'apartheid' and denying Israelis their 'right of return' according to the logic of this article (committed by Palestinian leadership). 4) The article refers to restrictions on Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank while falsely implying that these restrictions apply to Arab citizens living in Israel. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 23:26, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:WP:FORUM

:Points 1, 2 and 3 are unfounded as the Plaestinian territories are occupied by Israel, as established in 2022 by the ICJ. The 2024 ICJ ruling explains perfectly well the logic of how Israel is breaching laws against racial segregation and apartheid.

:On point 4, if the article falsely implies something, please suggest how to clarify it in the article. 20WattSphere (talk) 00:37, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::@20WattSphere Please provide references for your assertions about Points 1,2,and 3. Every edit I added was referenced with WP:RS and has been removed without clear justification. Unreferenced material in the lead should be removed. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 09:58, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Again, WP:FORUM. But my references are the 2022 and 2024 ICJ rulings, which I'm sure are linked on this page. 20WattSphere (talk) 12:38, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Those references do not contradict what I said in points 1, 2 and 3. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 21:27, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Read this: ICJ case on Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories 20WattSphere (talk) 22:29, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia Please explain your mass revert. This article is far from NPOV and my edits barely scratched the surface of addressing that issue. Why did you remove all of them? Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 01:34, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{tq|This article is far from NPOV}} is to quote the Big Lebowski, just like, your opinion man. In my own experience 1 on 1 conversations with people who have strong opinions like yourself is completely worthless, so I suggest that if you want to get consensus for your edits you take it to WP:NPOVN. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:38, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::For the most part I agree with the revert but the paragraph added to the European view section seems alright. The politicians whose opinions are described there are no less prominent than others whose views are mentioned in the section. Alaexis_¿question? 19:17, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I'm okay with if you restore some of the added opinions of prominent European politicans, but opinions of people ike Xaviaer DuRousseau, etc, are completely undue. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:31, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Aside from Xaviaer DuRousseau, what are the grounds for all the other reverts? Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 22:01, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::@Hemiauchenia I'm restoring the other edits, not Xaviaer's views, and you can explain one by one what your objections are. If they are valid I will remove. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 23:11, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::It's pretty obvious you don't have consensus for any of your edits as it stands, and I suggest that you revert the entirety of it pending further discussion. The addition to the lead that {{tq|a stance which has been affirmed by numerous American and European public figures}} is undue because it is too vague given the political division that surrounds the issue (I think mentioning that the Unites States as well as several European leaders oppose the designation would be due however) as is the opinion of Olga Meshoe Washington, an obscure figure who appears to be marginally notable for her for pro-Israel advocacy and little else. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:35, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::One reason the article is far from NPOV is because the notion that Israel has any security concerns is not even slightly entertained. Which is a denial of history. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 23:37, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Also, the mention of Hitler is completely gratuitous, as Hitler was responsible for the murder of millions of innocent people. That needs to be removed. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 23:40, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::And why are Fatima Hassan's comments given a large paragraph if Olga Meshoe Washington's comments cannot be included at all? Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 23:43, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::This is literally the stated opinion of the ruling party of South Africa, not just some random comment by a nobody. Nowhere in the article is the opinion endorsed. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:43, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::The lead (and title) make it very clear that Israel "does" commit apartheid, which is by no means a consensus opinion. So the article is in violation of NPOV. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 23:46, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::It is the consensus though. Just not the consensus of people who prefer misinformation. See ICJ case on Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories 20WattSphere (talk) 22:45, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::@Alaexis Could you please add those back? Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 00:07, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:Editors need to be able to decide whether revisions increase policy compliance or violate the WP:NOTADVOCACY policy. Explaining how edits increase policy compliance might help with that. Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:16, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|Allthemilescombined1}} your insertion of the disputed content has been reverted once already and should not have been reinstated. I have removed this material and you should please discuss it here and only include the material if this discussion results in a consensus for it. Per WP:ONUS it is up to you to achieve consensus for inclusion of the new material.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:59, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::@Amakuru Hemiauchenia and Alaexis both said my edits should not all have been reverted. Please revert yourself. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 00:01, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I was about to revert them myself once my 24 hour timer was up. I fully support Amakuru's revert. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:05, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::@Hemiauchenia Why did you say above that some should remain? Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 00:07, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::If there is agreement on specific parts of the text then that part can be put back. Consensus on the specifics should be achieved here first though. Also, a note to all participants that there is no "24 hour timer" which allows for any sort of edit warring once it's passed. While reverts within that time frame automatically breach the bright line rule, administrators are also within their discretion to consider reverts made outside that window as edit warring. The important thing is for everyone to get around the table on the talk page rather than hashing out the argument via a slow burn revert cycle.  — Amakuru (talk) 00:29, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I have less objections to some parts of the text, but if we're going to discuss them then you're gonna have to get consensus for them piecemeal. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:35, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::· European Parliament member Niclas Herbst commented that a Palestinian in Israel has a far better situation than political prisoners had in apartheid South Africa. Former Irish defense minister Alan Shatter noted that the apartheid label is used by detractors to demonize and delegitimize Israel.

:::::· US Congressman Henry Cuellar described allegations of Israeli apartheid as "falsified name-calling”.

:::::· Member of the House of Lords Baroness Ruth Deech described such accusers of Israel as being racist themselves.

:::::· Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Czech Republic Jirí Kozák commented that applying the apartheid label to Israel trivializes the suffering of South Africans under apartheid.

:::::· European Parliament Vice President Nicola Beer stated, "Categorizing Israel as an apartheid state is just plain antisemitic".{{cite web | last=Klein | first=Zvika | title=VP of European Parliament | website= The Jerusalem Post | date=2022-06-30 | url=https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-710863 | access-date=2025-05-15}} Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 10:02, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:Israel says its policies are driven by security considerations.{{harvtxt|Peteet|2016|p=249}} also argues that there is an Israeli narrative of exceptionalism which works to 'exempt' it from such comparisons.{{sfn|Adam|Moodley|2005|pp=19ff., 59ff.}}{{citation |last=Sabel |first=Robbie |title=The campaign to delegitimize Israel with the false charge of apartheid |date=2009 |url=https://jcpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/JPSR-23-3-4-Sabel-1.pdf |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230224192553/https://www.jcpa.org/text/apartheid.pdf |archive-date=24 February 2023 |url-status=live |publication-place=Jerusalem |publisher=Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs |isbn=978-965-218-073-5}}{{cite journal |last=Zilbershats |first=Yaffa |date=2013-08-01 |title=Apartheid, international law, and the occupied Palestinian territory: A reply to John Dugard and John Reynolds |journal=European Journal of International Law |volume=24 |issue=3 |pages=915–928 |doi=10.1093/ejil/cht043 |issn=0938-5428}} Israel says the accusation of apartheid is factually and morally inaccurate and intended to delegitimize Israel,{{Cite book |last=Dershowitz |first=Alan |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KXQPAQAAMAAJ |title=The case against Israel's enemies: Exposing Jimmy Carter and others who stand in the way of peace |date=2008-09-29 |publisher=John Wiley & Sons |isbn=978-0-470-37992-9 |pages=20–25, 28–29, 36, 44–48 |language=en |access-date=20 January 2024 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230404115842/https://books.google.com/books?id=KXQPAQAAMAAJ |archive-date=4 April 2023 |url-status=live}}{{cite book |last=Matas |first=David |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=xOnQTN025TIC&pg=PA53 |title=Aftershock: Anti-Zionism & Anti-Semitism |publisher=Dundurn Press |year=2005 |isbn=978-1-55002-894-2 |publication-place=Toronto |pages=53–55 |language=it |access-date=19 April 2024}}{{Cite news |last=Klein |first=Zvika |date=28 February 2022 |title=France's Macron comes out against claims of Israeli apartheid |url=https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-698925 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240111101726/https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-698925 |archive-date=11 January 2024 |access-date=20 January 2024 |work=The Jerusalem Post}} a stance which has been affirmed by numerous American and European public figures{{cite web |last=Klein |first=Zvika |date=2022-06-30 |title='Calling Israel 'apartheid' is plain antisemitic' - VP of European Parliament |url=https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-710863 |access-date=2025-05-13 |website=The Jerusalem Post}}{{Cite news |last=Lazaroff |first=Tovah |date=2 February 2022 |title=US: Absurd to charge Israel with apartheid, we support a Jewish state |url=https://www.jpost.com/international/article-695246 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230618003246/https://www.jpost.com/international/article-695246 |archive-date=18 June 2023 |access-date=20 January 2024 |work=The Jerusalem Post}}{{Cite news |last=Lazaroff |first=Tovah |date=4 February 2022 |title=Israel not apartheid state, but must uphold int'l law, UK says |url=https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-695546 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230913123030/https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-695546 |archive-date=13 September 2023 |access-date=2022-02-06 |work=The Jerusalem Post |language=en}}{{Cite news |title='They're Making a Mistake': Biden Rejects Progressive Democrats' Criticism of Israel |url=https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2022-07-14/ty-article/.highlight/theyre-making-a-mistake-biden-rejects-progressive-democrats-criticism-of-israel/00000181-fb5a-d6ee-a9df-fb7e34470000 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221020194612/https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2022-07-14/ty-article/.highlight/theyre-making-a-mistake-biden-rejects-progressive-democrats-criticism-of-israel/00000181-fb5a-d6ee-a9df-fb7e34470000 |archive-date=20 October 2022 |access-date=2022-09-22 |work=Haaretz |language=en}}{{Cite news |title=EU Foreign Minister Says the Term 'Apartheid' Is Inappropriate to Describe Israel |url=https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2023-01-16/ty-article/.premium/eu-foreign-minister-says-the-term-apartheid-is-inappropriate-to-describe-israel/00000185-b683-d784-abef-b6836bd10000 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230315114309/https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2023-01-16/ty-article/.premium/eu-foreign-minister-says-the-term-apartheid-is-inappropriate-to-describe-israel/00000185-b683-d784-abef-b6836bd10000 |archive-date=15 March 2023 |access-date=20 January 2024 |newspaper=Haaretz}}{{Cite news |title=German Antisemitism Czar Says Calling Israel 'Apartheid' Is Antisemitic |url=https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2023-08-07/ty-article/.premium/german-czar-says-calling-israel-apartheid-is-antisemitic/00000189-d04d-d821-afdd-db6d0c260000 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240110000943/https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2023-08-07/ty-article/.premium/german-czar-says-calling-israel-apartheid-is-antisemitic/00000189-d04d-d821-afdd-db6d0c260000 |archive-date=10 January 2024 |access-date=20 January 2024 |newspaper=Haaretz}}{{cite web |last=Fandos |first=Nicholas |date=2023-11-11 |title=Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ritchie Torres Collide Over Israel |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/11/nyregion/aoc-torres-israel-gaza.html |access-date=2025-05-13 |website=The New York Times}} and a South African attorney.{{cite web |last=Meshoe Washington |first=Olga |date=30 March 2020 |title=Essay: The Apartheid Lie |url=https://aijac.org.au/australia-israel-review/essay-the-apartheid-lie/ |access-date=8 January 2025 |website=AIJAC}}{{cite web |date=25 May 2015 |title=Olga Meshoe wows America on a whirlwind visit |url=https://www.sajr.co.za/olga-became-the-darling-of-us-jewry/ |access-date=8 January 2025 |website=Jewish Report}} Furthermore, Israel calls the charge antisemitic,{{cite web |last=Merlin |first=Ohad |date=2024-05-16 |title=Blood Libels of today's generation |url=https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-801408 |access-date=2025-05-13 |website=The Jerusalem Post}}{{cite web |date=2011-11-01 |title=Israel and the Apartheid Slander |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/israel-and-the-apartheid-slander.html |access-date=2025-05-13 |website=The New York Times}}{{cite web |date=July 28, 2024 |title=Israel ‘Apartheid’? Try Visiting the Hospital |url=https://www.wsj.com/opinion/israel-apartheid-try-visiting-the-hospital-1b70f825 |access-date=2025-05-13 |website=WSJ |language=en-US}}{{cite web |last=Kontorovich |first=Eugene |date=February 28, 2022 |title=There’s Apartheid in the Holy Land, but Not in Israel |url=https://www.wsj.com/opinion/theres-apartheid-in-the-holy-land-but-not-in-israel-amnesty-international-palestine-racial-discrimination-disfavored-group-11644338888 |access-date=2025-05-13 |website=WSJ |language=en-US}}{{cite web |last= |first= |date=January 23, 2024 |title=Harvard’s ‘Apartheid’ Prof and the Antisemitism Task Force |url=https://www.wsj.com/opinion/harvard-antisemitism-task-force-derek-penslar-israel-hamas-67391846 |access-date=2025-05-13 |website=WSJ |language=en-US}}{{cite web |last=Board |first=The Editorial |date=January 31, 2022 |title=The ‘Apartheid’ Libel of Israel |url=https://www.wsj.com/opinion/the-apartheid-libel-of-israel-amnesty-international-report-11643669544 |access-date=2025-05-13 |website=WSJ |language=en-US}}{{cite web |last=Harkov |first=Lahav |date=2022-01-06 |title=Will 2022 be the year the ‘Israel apartheid’ label sticks? |url=https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-691814 |access-date=2025-05-13 |website=The Jerusalem Post}}{{cite web |last=Berman |first=Lazar |date=2022-01-31 |title=Israel blasts Amnesty UK for ‘antisemitic’ report accusing it of apartheid |url=https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-attacks-delusional-amnesty-uk-ahead-of-report-accusing-israel-of-apartheid/ |access-date=2025-05-13 |website=The Times of Israel}}{{cite web |last=Johnson |first=Alan |date=2014-02-27 |title=Why Amnesty is wrong to call Israel an ‘Apartheid State’ |url=https://fathomjournal.org/2022-introduction-enough-is-enough-on-amnestys-antisemitic-apartheid-report/ |access-date=2025-05-13 |website=Fathom}} which critics have referred to as 'weaponization of antisemitism'. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 10:10, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:The lead contains four paragraphs detailing controversial accusations at length as if they are facts. There is a very short section on Israel's responses, minimally referenced, tacked onto the final paragraph of the accusations. Israel's response should at minimum be given its own paragraph, and it should be well-referenced. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 10:19, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::This should not be referenced as per WP:MANDY 20WattSphere (talk) 12:40, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

{{reftalk}}

The term Israel proper is used in this article without a definition. I couldn't find a clear definition in Wikipedia. To the best of my knowledge, Israel proper is the area of Israel minus the occupied territories. Please define it. IndigoPansy (talk) 15:48, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:"Israel proper" is used by Human Rights Watch in its [https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution apartheid report]:

:

Their actions and policies further dispel the notion that Israeli authorities consider the occupation temporary, including the continuing of land confiscation, the building of the separation barrier in a way that accommodated anticipated growth of settlements, the seamless integration of the settlements’ sewage system, communication networks, electrical grids, water infrastructure and a matrix of roads with Israel proper, as well as a growing body of laws applicable to West Bank Israeli settlers but not Palestinians.

:and

:

Beyond the land grabs, authorities have entirely integrated the settlements’ sewage system, communication and road networks, and electrical grids and water infrastructure with Israel proper.

:But I think the issue you raise is correct. There should be a definition provided in a footnote. JasonMacker (talk) 21:05, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::I've added the footnote that clarifies its meaning. Hope this helps. JasonMacker (talk) 21:18, 20 May 2025 (UTC)