Talk:J. C. Watts#Name

I doubted it too, but his name really is Julius Caesar! See [http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=W000210 this link], for example, which is pretty definitive. There a couple other sources that use his full name too. –CWenger (^ • @) 17:45, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

:I know that source, but it's not definitive (check the entry for Al Franken, his actual name Alan Stuart is not used by the congressional biography). When I researched this issue I found a source that specifically discussed his name with background info, and the reason some people think his name is Julius Caesar is found quoted from the source in the note - his name is J.C. and it has no further meaning, as explained by said source. Hekerui (talk) 20:54, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

::Hmmm, can you send me that source? See also [http://articles.latimes.com/1999/feb/22/news/mn-10511/2 this article], which uses Julius Caesar. Sorry for reverting you, I thought this was just a misunderstanding. –CWenger (^ • @) 20:59, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

:::That some articles use Julius Caesar doesn't mean it has merit - it's a common misunderstanding and when we have an article that fact-checks it and explains how the misunderstanding originated, that should take precedent. As I said, I came across this apparent discrepancy when I researched for the wiki article and read all the stuff about him, and found a source specifically discussing why some people think his name is "Julius Caesar" and how this is false, because it's simply something blurted out by J.C.'s father when he was pressed for a name not consiting of initials. The online version of the "Black conservative looks at life" article is apparently gone from highbeam.com since I read it, but we have name of the publication, date, and author, so it can be found in newspaper archives. One can directly view it in the publisher archive of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel at http://www.newslibrary.com/sites/mwsb/ (search the article title), but it costs $2.95 to view. Regards Hekerui (talk) 21:20, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

::::In [http://books.google.com/books?id=i1p2Z5KAhjEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=j.+c.+watts&hl=en&ei=P12rTZ3dEJC-sAPk0aj6DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=julius&f=false this book] it talks about his father getting the nickname "Julius Caesar" in elementary school. So is it possibly that he actually gave his son that name officially? –CWenger (^ • @) 21:44, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

::::In fact, the inside cover of that book (his autobiography) says "Watts, J. C. (Julius Caesar)". –CWenger (^ • @) 21:45, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

:::::On Amazon.com I can see the back cover and "About the authors" from the book and neither says "Julius Caesar", only J.C. "Julius Caesar" is only mentioned in the citation of the Library of Congress, which is in the same category as the Congressional biography for reliability. The copyright notice from the publisher mentions only J.C. As I cited, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel wrote that Watt's father provided J.C.'s name as "Julius Caesar" at random when pressed for it, so whether his father "really" gave him the name is speculative and not substantiated by the account in the source. It would be great if you or anyone else had any insight on what if anything Watts himself says in this book about his name. If we have nothing else to go on, I suggest we go back to J.C., since there is at least a reliable source for that being correct and the other being false. The way it's now I regard as misinforming. Best Hekerui (talk) 14:13, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

::::::Take a look at [http://books.google.com/books?id=i1p2Z5KAhjEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=j.+c.+watts&hl=en&ei=P12rTZ3dEJC-sAPk0aj6DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=Julius%20Caesar&f=false this link], and then click on the link to page iv. You will see it calls him Julius Caesar twice. This is his autobiography so I treat it as definitive. –CWenger (^ • @) 14:57, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

:::::::Is it Watts calling himself "Julius Caesar" or is that the citation I mentioned? I can't watch this on google books, I get "No preview available". Hekerui (talk) 15:07, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

::::::::Here's a [http://img59.imageshack.us/i/juliuscaesarwattsjr.png/ screenshot] then. –CWenger (^ • @) 15:29, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::That's the citation used by the Library of Congress, the same source for that name as the flawed bioguide. This is not authored by the book authors. All the other examples where the books authors are prominently displayed (book over, back cover, author description) use J.C. only. And we have a reliable source explaining Julius Caesar is not his name, but used sometimes by mistake, so is there any more discussion necessary before we go back to the verifiable actual name? Regards Hekerui (talk) 19:14, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::Can you send me a screenshot of your source that explains that Julius Caesar is not his name? I see another place in his autobiography where he states: "I have always thought the Jets picked the two players with the most colorful names in the draft that year as their eighth round choices: Admiral Dewey Larry, Jr., and Julius Caesar Watts, Jr." –CWenger (^ • @) 00:04, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::::No I cannot. $3 to reiterate what I already had paraphrased from the source when I worked on the article? No. The source specifically discussed that his initials have no meaning. That passage you mention could have all kinds of explanations, none of which deal directly with the name like the source I gave. I will restore the previous version. For those cases the citation templates have the "retrieved" parameter, to show this was not conjured out of thin air. Hekerui (talk) 21:13, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::::You have provided your memory of a non-free reference. I have provided numerous web references and screenshots and quotes from his autobiography. It is pretty clear the evidence is for "Julius Caesar". What do you think he meant said "in an instant that would later determine my name", prior to describing his father being called "Julius Caesar" in school? What do you think he meant by saying "I have always thought the Jets picked the two players with the most colorful names in the draft that year as their eighth round choices: Admiral Dewey Larry, Jr., and Julius Caesar Watts, Jr."? Also keep in mind verifiability, not truth. Not that I am saying Julius Caesar is not true, but it is certainly verifiable. –CWenger (^ • @) 21:26, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::::Note: I have advertised this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Conservatism#J. C. Watts. –CWenger (^ • @) 21:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::::::It's not my memory, it's what I wrote down from looking at the source text in 2009. I saw the context of the source and how unambiguous it was, but this autobio context has not been fully available to either of us. Your web reference was not reliable (the congressional bio, which has gotten Al Franken's actual name wrong too, the stuff relying on it, including the book listing), but it's verified by a reporter that "Julius Caesar" is actually false and the result of an arbitrary statement by Watts' father - evidence that this seeped into popular usage one time or another doesn't makes the case stronger, especially without proper context. This looks POINTy to me by now, as this was cleared up so long ago. Hekerui (talk) 21:54, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::::::I am guessing members of Congress write their own biography, and Al Franken simply chose to not use his full name. In addition to the [http://img59.imageshack.us/i/juliuscaesarwattsjr.png/ Library of Congress catalog], which I showed earlier, here are screenshots from his autobiography of [http://img195.imageshack.us/i/jcwattsfathername.png/ the story of his Dad's nickname] (note the phrase "in an instant that would later determine my name"), and [http://img852.imageshack.us/i/jcwattsjets.png/ his mention of the Jets' draft]. The latter seems definitive to me. I think his own words in his autobiography are a reliable source for his own name. –CWenger (^ • @) 22:08, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::Good, this exactly proves that the name "J.C." has no actual meaning and that Watts' father simply made a long-form up one day when he noticed that the Roman emperor Julius Caesar had the same initials. Case finally closed. The second image is merely the result of the Library of Congress using the wrong name as it uses the stats from the Congressional biography. His autobio on the other hand doesn't use "Julius Caesar" in the credits given by the author(s) and/or publisher, that much we already discovered (I with Amazon, you with Google books). Hekerui (talk) 22:15, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::I hope you're not being serious. He said "in an instant that would later determine my name". It is pretty obvious it was only a nickname for his father in school but became his son's official birth name. How do you explain his comment about the Jets' draft? –CWenger (^ • @) 22:17, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

(Outdent) Obvious? Have you had a look at his birth certificate lately? The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel stated that the intials do not have a meaning. J.C. probably uses the longer form coloquially like his father did. That is speculation but it is no more speculation than you got with "pretty obvious it [...] became his son's official birth name", with the difference that I cited a reliable source that specifically talked about the meaninglessness of the initials. Hekerui (talk) 22:23, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

:It is pretty clear that we are not going to resolve this ourselves. I have post a neutrally worded link to this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography#J. C. Watts, as you suggested. Though I am still waiting for your explanation of his comment about the Jets' draft. –CWenger (^ • @) 22:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

::It appears Milwaukee is WP:V and CWenger's sources are WP:V. At this point we can't determine which is "true." It doesn't matter anyway, as we're not interested in truth. Both points of view should be reflected in the article. Lionel (talk) 02:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

:::I mostly agree with you, except [http://www.highbeam.com/Search?searchTerm=Black%20conservative%20looks%20at the link for reference 2] currently in the article doesn't show the intended source, and therefore I would consider it not verifiable. On the other hand, [http://www.highbeam.com/Search?searchTerm=%22Julius+Caesar+Watts%22 a search of that site for "Julius Caesar Watts"] turns up numerous hits. –CWenger (^ • @) 03:04, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

::::That the link is not available anymore doesn't mean the story doesn't exist - as I said, I found the story easily in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel archive where one can retrieve it for a fee. I retrieved it when it was still available. If you cite a newspaper it's still reliable even if you can't access it online. I adressed your Jets point with my outdent comment above, he may use it coloquially, but that doesn't mean it's the name. Hekerui (talk) 07:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel archives are available for free [http://www.jsonline.com/historicarchive/search/ here]. Unfortunately that day is not available (even for pay). Do you have a link you can post? A Google search of the title turns up virtually nothing. I am not doubting you read this, but the problem is you are the only person that can confirm it. And the current reference is not properly formatted, it is just a search of HighBeam, which currently does not retrieve the correct article. –CWenger (^ • @) 15:14, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::I find it when I go to http://www.newslibrary.com/sites/mwsb/, enter "Black conservative looks at life" and choose year 2002. Perhaps [http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_multi=MWSB|PKPB&p_product=MSNP&p_theme=msnp&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&s_dispstring=Black%20conservative%20looks%20at%20life%20AND%20date%282002%29&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=2002&p_field_advanced-0=&p_text_advanced-0=%28Black%20conservative%20looks%20at%20life%29&xcal_numdocs=20&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no this link] works. Hekerui (talk) 09:10, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::::Thanks for the links. I know some people in Wisconsin so I'll see if any of them have access to this article. –CWenger (^ • @) 17:15, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::::Any success so far? Hekerui (talk) 21:27, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::Hi, yes, I managed to get the article and took a screenshot of it which you can view [http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7670/jcwattsmjs.png here]. To be honest I have been debating what to do with it because it doesn't definitively answer the question. It does say the initials didn't stand for anything for his father (at least initially). It implies his son's name is actually Julius Caesar, but then calls it a "moniker", which tends to means nickname. Ultimately I don't put a huge amount of credibility in the article because it is just a review of Watts' book. It doesn't look like he he interviewed Watts personally as there are no quotes in the article. I put about as much stock in it as the other reliable sources we have.

:::::::::I suppose the thing to do would be to just add footnotes after his birth name tag in the infobox and the first time his full name is used in the article saying it is unclear whether or not his full name is Julius Caesar. Would you be amenable to that? –CWenger (^ • @) 22:02, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

(Outdent) I'm not sure how to accomplish it, perhaps you should make an edit in the article (or in a sandbox for testing). One could also make this a proper distinguished note as, for example, done [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=380481188 here] (that's used in existing articles too, but I best remembered this application). Hekerui (talk) 22:22, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

:That looks like a good way to accomplish it. I suggest text along the following lines: