Talk:Jahlil Okafor#Now relocated discussion on images

Based on discussions at WP:ANI, WT:NBA, and above an admin has reverted this to a 6-image version (down from 15 images prior to recent editing) with the expectation of discussion on further tweeking here. I don't think that the best images from Commons:Category:Jahlil Okafor have been selected to illustrate the article. The current version omits two images (:File:20120919 Jahlil Okafor.JPG and :File:20140221 Cliff Alexander and Jahlil Okafor.JPG) that were at issue in an edit war between {{u|JesseRafe}} and myself with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jahlil_Okafor&oldid=671478428 my proposed 8-image version]. This leaves three issues: Is 6 preferable to 8? Should either of the contentious images be restored to the article (potentially in place of images currently in the article)? I think these are three separate issues. {{u|Epeefleche}}, {{u|Rikster2}}, {{u|Handpolk}}, {{u|Editorofthewiki}}, {{u|DangerousJXD}}, {{u|JesseRafe}}, {{u|BU Rob13}}, {{u|Bagumba}} and {{U|Ricky81682}}.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:44, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

: It would be easier if you could include diffs of versions showing where you think the photo should go (and with it gone). Captions if you want to suggest that as well. Knowing that it's just about the photo itself will make it easier for the next admin to close the consensus and actually implement it. If you don't think these are the best images, are you suggesting that any of these replace a photo here or just their addition? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:14, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

::Above I showed where the two contentious images would go in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jahlil_Okafor&oldid=671478428 my proposed 8-image version]. They would be in the same place in a six image version. If the coach image is included, it would replace an image in the junior year section probably the one where Okafor's face is obscured by his own arm.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:29, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

::: Look, you're not helping making this clear when you're just saying "above" and pinging a group of people and saying they all support you and to look above for that and we have have discussions in various talk pages and then arguing 6 v 8 when you post 3 more images but one is a replacement, others are added and on and on. I'm not saying it's intentional but you're making this extremely hard to keep up with for something fairly benign. If people aren't interested in commenting, they go with who actually comments. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:06, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Support 8 images It seems to me that important images are being omitted and that sufficient text exists to space them out. Furthermore, the layout of alternating side imagery in the proposed 8-image version is superior to the current layout, which I believe is against MOS by not alternating sides.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:44, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

: False dichotomy. I don't think the numbers of images matter so much as the image and its context. Besides, aren't you arguing for three photos which would make it nine? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:14, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

:::The third photo suggestion below would be a replacement rather than an addition as was noted below with my original post.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:09, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

::I agree with the above. Let's discuss specific images, not number of images. Eight images evenly distributed throughout the entire article? Maybe. Eight images crammed into high school as they used to be? No way. It's not as easy as agreeing on number of images and then deciding where they go later. ~ Rob^Talk 13:22, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

:::False dichotomy is exactly it. At no point has Tony engaged in any of my actual oft-stated reasons for removing the images in edit summaries, but just imagined I had some "rule" about photo count. And I agree with Rob, 8 is not a problem, but 8 in High School is preposterous. When I first came to this page to trim there were something like 12 in just a few paragraphs covering two years. JesseRafe (talk) 13:36, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Support including Based on the most recent commentaries, there was a majority in support of this inclusion of this image in the prior discussions. Regardless of whether we go with 6 or 8 images, this is probably the first or second best picture that we have of him. I feel this should be restored, but if image density remains an issue, remove either of the other two junior year images that are from the same game against Jabari Parker.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:44, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

: Oppose. Again, without knowing where you're thinking of this going, it's difficult. I'm presuming you're not suggesting this for the lede photo (as the best clearest photo of his face) so I'm going to guess against that. However, this article is about Okafor's entire biography, not his high school career. He's not some child actor or some individual for whom what he looked like as a high schooler matters. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:27, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

: Oppose. The current lead clearly shows the subject's face, and an additional picture of his face in an already cluttered high school section leaves the images far too dense. ~ Rob^Talk 13:18, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

::{{u|BU Rob13}}, like I said if we remain at 6 or go with 8, I think this image should be included. What you are saying is that if we add this image and go with 7 or 8 it would be too cluttered. What about if we remain at 6 and remove one of the two images in the junior year section and replace it with this one, which is probably the 2nd best picture we have of him. If we are going to keep only 6, this should still be one of them.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:02, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

: Oppose - Agree with the exact arguments by Rob and Ricky above, as I've been making them via edit summaries for two weeks. His face is in all the photos and this one is boring and... Tony says I have a problem with showing his face. I then removed the ones where there is supposedly some rebounding or dunking going on because you can't see a thing but arms, i.e. Okafor's face isn't shown and... Tony says I have a problem with dunking. Which is it? Someone, I think Eddy (?) suggested this would be suitable for the infobox, and I agree, in a vacuum, it could serve, but that photo currently there is both an action shot and a pretty clear image of his face, so this yearbook-style photo is just "enh". It serves no purpose other than to show what he looked like at 16. And the caption about the Chicago Teachers' Strike couldn't be less relevant than what phase the moon was in. JesseRafe (talk) 13:42, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

:: Let's keep it WP:CIVIL. Both sides did things wrong. ~ Rob^Talk 13:48, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

:::What did I do uncivil? Especially considering Tony wantonly calls other editors who have consensus "idiots" in his edit summaries? Nothing above was libelous, but direct indirect quotations. JesseRafe (talk) 13:59, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

• All the people who have supported this image in the previous discussions ({{u|Epeefleche}}, {{u|Rikster2}}, {{u|Handpolk}}, {{u|Editorofthewiki}} and {{u|DangerousJXD}}) have blown off this discussion. So I don't know what to say. I think it would fit well at the top of the junior year section as I had proposed during the warring.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:02, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

:*Be careful, pinging only those who have previously agreed with you could be seen as WP:CANVASS. I know that's not your intention, but I don't know how an uninvolved editor might see it. ~ Rob^Talk 19:04, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

:* That's nice but they aren't commenting now. This doesn't just drag on until only the people you approve of are here to comment. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:06, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

::This very talk page has direct objective evidence to the contrary of all of this "supposed" support. JesseRafe (talk) 19:58, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

:::I could point you to diffs from each of the five individuals mentioned above that shows they have supported this image elsewhere, but are in absentia for this discussion.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:02, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

::::Why click on a cherry-picked diff when all I have to do is scroll up and read their exact words? JesseRafe (talk) 20:04, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

:::::Everybody knows if they don't comment here, their comments don't count toward this discussion. I have tried to guide you toward the best 6 images if you want to go with 6 and the best 8 if you want to go with 8. It is not really that big a deal. In either case, you are using 6 pictures taken by me with my cameras because no one else has released any photos that we want to use of this guy yet. I personally think you should add back this image or replace another with this one, but you seem to have actual votes (support) and I have the support of a bunch of missing persons.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:28, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support inclusion. I'm sorry I did not respond immediately, I am on vacation and enjoying the sun and beach and sand. Like I have previously said, this would work well as an infobox image if we move the current one down to the section about the McDonalds All America game. Other than that, it can be put down at the top of the junior section like TonyTheTiger notes. But I think at least one image should be removed before that happens. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 13:27, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Support including The senior season subsection has over 4000 characters of readable prose. With that much text, it seems if the article is stable with that much prose, that three images can fit in this section. This image represents a high school basketball game that was the lead story on SportsCenter. I find it difficult to imagine we don't want to represent this in his biography. I am not sure which image to remove if we are limiting this to 6 because the two senior season images both represent important points in his career. However, the McDAAG image will eventually be in competition with the current main image when we have a new main image. We could remove it now to make way for this image.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:44, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

:Oppose if no images are removed from the high school section. Support if at least one image is removed, preferably :File:20130126 Jahlil Okafor shooting over Jabari Parker at Simeon-Whitney Young game.JPG. I'll post about that below. Image density reasons, again. ~ Rob^Talk 13:21, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

:Oppose He's standing still! What's the point of this image? Is there an article about the tremendous personal rivalry between Okafor and Alexander? Notability is not inherited. There is nothing notable for posterity that this game was the lede on SportsCenter. I don't think it matters whether Alexander, Parker, or some schlub is the opposing player in any photo of Jahlil Okafor, it should be about good and interesting photos that add to the article. All things being equal, yes, Alexander or Parker or Justise Winslow or anyone is better than a no one, but the photo should be clear and interesting. Not standing still, even if he is standing still next to someone or that time he was standing still was on SportsCenter for some reason (I also found it contemptible that one could use this as a reason to include anything). JesseRafe (talk) 13:47, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I'm presuming the usage as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jahlil_Okafor&oldid=671478428#Senior_season such]. If you were proposing cutting the image to just Okafor to use a lead image or something, that's worth discussion but this is odd. The caption is that this is from the "quadruple overtime Chicago Public High School League championship game". That game has three sentences here mentioning it but it's just an image from a city high school championship game. It's not even some winning play from the game, just a picture of two players in that game. The video :File:20140221 Jahlil Okafor's last basket against Cliff Alexander.webm has more of a connection (and even then, it's just a basket by a player on the losing team). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:19, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Support including in an 8-image version if we go with an 8-image version, this is a better inclusion than having two images from the same junior year game. It is not common for us to share with our readers the two highest paid coaches in college basketball recruiting a player. The caption at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jahlil_Okafor&oldid=668770956 this version] was "On the first day after the 2012 Chicago Public Teachers Strike, Tom Izzo and John Calipari, the two highest paid college coaches in 2012,{{cite news|author=Tom Van Riper |url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomvanriper/2012/03/05/the-highest-paid-college-basketball-coaches/ |title= The highest-paid college basketball coaches |work=Forbes |date=March 5, 2012 |accessdate=2012-05-05}} were at Whitney M. Young Magnet High School to recruit Okafor." There were some complaints about the strike, but that could just be change to "On the first day of the 2012&ndash13 school year, Tom Izzo and John Calipari, the two highest paid college coaches in 2012,{{cite news|author=Tom Van Riper |url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomvanriper/2012/03/05/the-highest-paid-college-basketball-coaches/ |title= The highest-paid college basketball coaches |work=Forbes |date=March 5, 2012 |accessdate=2012-05-05}} were at Whitney M. Young Magnet High School to recruit Okafor."--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:44, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

: Oppose This is an article about Okafor's biography not an article about the recruiting of Jahlil Okafor. There's nothing gained by adding photos of two college coaches he didn't play for when he's not in the picture itself. Again, maybe with context, there's a logic to it but I'm not seeing it now. I also don't get the caption. What does their salaries have to do with Okafor? Why is the Teacher's strike is in the caption? Was the Teacher's strike related to the event or just it's closure re-started school? Why not just say 2012? The exact date (especially the strike and that these two were the highest paid coaches then) doesn't really seem to matter three years later. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:27, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

: Oppose If we had a picture of Okafor talking with his actual college coach when he was recruited, that would work, but this image of two college coaches he didn't play for standing around doesn't help illustrate the article. ~ Rob^Talk 13:25, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

: Oppose When I was first trimming the glut from this page I literally did not stop to think one instant about removing this image. Tony's argument was something along the lines of "how often do we see the two-highest paid college coaches in a high school gym at the same time?". Which is both completely irrelevant, hinges about inheritable notability, and, also, something that I'm not so sure doesn't happen semi-frequently. JesseRafe (talk) 13:54, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

• Absolutely not. If this image belongs anywhere, it belongs on the individual coaches pages, and certainly not on Okafors. It really doesnt have much to do with him apart from that they were recruiting him. Tony's reasoning about it was pretty ludicrous.~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 13:35, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Support removal. This image is low quality, and does not show the subject's face whatsoever. Parker also looks exceptionally awkward in it. Given that there are other extremely similar images in the article of a higher quality, such as :File:20130126 Jahlil Okafor jumps for a rebound at Simeon-Whitney Young game.JPG, we don't need this in the article. This would make way for another better image, such as :File:20140221 Cliff Alexander and Jahlil Okafor.JPG, proposed above. ~ Rob^Talk 13:29, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

• If we remove this, one of the three other images here would be a good replacement. This would be one I would consider removing to make way for ahother image.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:30, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Support removing this, as it's only "notable" in that his opponent is Jabari Parker. That makes it kinda interesting, but it's still a lousy photo and doesn't illustrate the subject well. JesseRafe (talk) 13:55, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

:Note that notability in the sense of WP:GNG does not apply to inclusion of content within an article. ~ Rob^Talk 13:59, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support removal. We dont need two images of Okafor in the same game, for Christ's sakes. And that doesnt even take into account the poor quality of the image, which I couldnt tell was Okafor unless I was told. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 13:31, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
• I've removed this from the article, as the consensus here is clear. I also moved the remaining picture a bit higher up the article. I quite like the image balance in high school now. Maybe a tad dense, but manageable. ~ Rob^Talk 18:39, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

File:Farm-Fresh eye.pngYou are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association#Jahlil_Okafor.27s_ancestors_by_way_of_a_non-WP:RS. Should he be categorized as Igbo? Thanks. —Bagumba (talk) 16:38, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

:The names Chukwudi and Okafor are very Igbo. If his father is Nigerian he would be of the Igbo ethnicity as his first and last name are both in the Igbo language. This is not some "tribe" as TonyTheTiger disparagingly calls them, but one of the largest ethnic and linguistic groups in Africa, let alone Nigeria, with a population of 20-30 million. One editor removing this category and calling people a "tribe" (presumably because they are in Africa? Would non-nation-state peoples in Europe or Asia be called tribes? Are the Suomi (Lapps), Euskaldunak (Basques), or Kurds "tribes"? It's insulting and belittling.) seemed spurious. That editor then asked for a citation, but as one can't cite a category I added a few words when the article mentioned his Nigerian father (where I previously thought them unnecessary) and added a few references which in the edit summary I stated were less than great because this is a relatively silly thing to cite. Like the name Thompson being English or Dupont being French.

:Also, what does it say that both Jahlil and Emeka's pages have stated the two are cousins for longer than I care to look into without it ever being cited or questioned? This is just accepted without any questions? Sure, no problem from me, no CN tag added, but Emeka's page is full of Igbo references and categories. If they are in fact cousins, it would be a great coincidence if it weren't through the Okafor name, and if Okafor is Igbo for Emeka, it should be Igbo enough for Jahlil or Chukwudi.

:It's all a silly thing to get into such a brouhaha over, and I propose a compromise: the references and even the in-line reference could be dropped, but the categories should go back. Think of all the categories on BLP pages saying "African American actors" or "American musicians of Chinese descent" when those ethnicities aren't superficially cited and doing so would be clumsy and make awkward prose. JesseRafe (talk) 18:02, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

::In the interest of avoiding a fragmented discussion, may I suggest that you move this to the WT:NBA discussion? The thread here was merely intended as a notification to the ongoing thread.—Bagumba (talk) 18:10, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

{{reflist}}

Every indication that he was born in Fort Smith seems accurate. Only his father was from Chicago, and his mother had strong roots and family in the Arkansas and Oklahoma area. Why would she, as a college student, travel to Chicago to have her son away from her family? Yes, this is all conjecture on my part, but as the sources seem split on saying "Chicago" and "Fort Smith" using inferences seems to make the most sense. The source for many of his childhood details in the personal life section, [http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2014/jahlil-okafor-duke/ Chicago Magazine], seems to suggest he had not been to Chicago until he came to live there with his father after his mother died, and that Ckukwudi moved there away from Fort Smith after the relationship with Dee ended. It seems that the young family was always Fort Smith based until Chuck left and Dee took the kids to Oklahoma. He might consider himself "from" Chicago, but that is not where he is born necessarily. A definitive source needs to be found to change status quo on infobox. JesseRafe (talk) 22:59, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

:This article has long said Fort Smith Arkansas and one editor with spurious sources is changing it again. A few lines in bios say the birthplace, but there is no contextual source. [http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3135048/jahlil-okafor ESPN] says Arkansas while NBA.com is silent on birthplace. I have no idea how good of a source a recruiting-sounding website like "goduke.com" is, and basketball reference is user-edited, is it not? Of these four, ESPN seems the most reliable source. Other sources mention that his mother and father met in the Oklahoma and Arkansas area and no mention of his MOTHER ever having been to Chicago, which is necessary for him to be born there. His father can be anywhere. And he [http://heavy.com/sports/2015/06/jahlil-okafor-family-dad-chuckwudi-mom-death-cousin-emeka-sister-aunt-bio/ went "back to Chicago" after breaking up with his mother], i.e. she was not in Chicago at that time, and neither was Jahlil because he moved there a few years later, as noted in the article. Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary the status quo (supported by a major media outlet, ESPN) should be preserved. JesseRafe (talk) 19:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Jahlil Okafor|answered=yes}}

Emeka Okafor and Jahlil Okafor are not related. Okafor is a common Nigerian name, and the two have no relation. YourAsianBuddy (talk) 17:40, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

:Wikipedia is about cited material and not personal unsourced opinions. Okafor is a common Igbo name and Emeka and Jahlil are distant cousins. Both are true, and the cousins claim is cited in the article. JesseRafe (talk) 17:45, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160310150717/http://www.csnphilly.com/basketball-philadelphia-76ers/jahlil-okafor-injury-out-2nd-straight-game-shin-contusion to http://www.csnphilly.com/basketball-philadelphia-76ers/jahlil-okafor-injury-out-2nd-straight-game-shin-contusion
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120629052938/http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/u17/12_mu17_exh_02.html to http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/u17/12_mu17_exh_02.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130603161320/http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/u19/13_mu19_training_invitees.html to http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/u19/13_mu19_training_invitees.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:05, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Hello! I'm a student and I've been assigned with adding to a Wikipedia article. I selected this article because I am a fan of the NBA and Jahlil Okafor is quite a fascinating player. But I have noticed that this article is lacking recent and relevant information. I wish to add this information to ensure that this article is as complete as possible. Feel free to edit any possible inaccuracies. My sources can be found on my sandbox.

Jerichards2018 (talk) 04:35, 30 March 2020 (UTC)