Talk:Johnlock#Not sure about these sources

{{Cite book |last=Farghaly |first=Nadine |url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/Gender_and_the_Modern_Sherlock_Holmes/UWtECwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT9&printsec=frontcover |title=Gender and the Modern Sherlock Holmes: Essays on Film and Television Adaptations Since 2009 |date=2015-12-23 |publisher=McFarland |isbn=978-1-4766-2281-1 |language=en}}

{{Cite book |url=https://archive.org/details/sherlockholmesfo0000unse/mode/2up |title=Sherlock Holmes for the 21st century : essays on new adaptations |date=2012 |publisher=Jefferson, N.C. : McFarland |others=Internet Archive |isbn=978-0-7864-6840-9}}

{{Cite web |last=Gloudeman |first=Nikki |title=Is Sherlock Holmes Gay? |url=https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/01/gay-holmes-watson/ |access-date=2025-02-04 |website=Mother Jones |language=en-US}}

{{Cite journal |last=Fathallah |first=Judith |date=July 17, 2014 |title=Moriarty’s Ghost: Or the Queer Disruption of the BBC’s Sherlock |url=https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1527476414543528 |journal=Television & New Media |doi=10.1177/1527476414543528}} Rusalkii (talk) 20:02, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Johnlock}}

The Cassandra Collier{{who2}} thesis might be dubious per WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Also, the WP:RS-ness of the Wendy C. Fries{{who2}} quote is unclear as currently cited. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:22, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:I was iffy about the thesis too, but it's cited in a couple other papers. I can try to dig those up tomorrow when it's less midnight.

:The Fries quote was in a published book, I'll try to adjust the citation. If that doesn't fix the issue feel free to remove, I'm not inclined to go to bat for it too hard. Rusalkii (talk) 06:50, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::I adjusted the citation[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Johnlock&diff=prev&oldid=1280923627], and it seems fine, but my default assumption is that any name we let talk to the readers needs a{{who2}}. Author, writer, academic, alt-med blogger, what have you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:04, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::Per the book and Amazon [https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B01E4EXEQY/about], Fries is an author, added that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:02, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::I don't think Collier has a great way to describe her. "Master's student in gender studies" is not particularly helpful imo - and looking at that source I just realized it's a master's thesis not a bachelor's thesis, oops. You can see a bit of her career after her masters [https://womensstudies.las.iastate.edu/2021/08/04/welcome-to-wgs-dr-cassy-collier/ here], but describing her as a gender studies lecturer seems somewhat misleading given that she wasn't at the time of publication. Rusalkii (talk) 18:56, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Since it's master's, it probably fits better as EL/further reading than source in the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:08, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::I did dither about this, but one of the specific things called out as making a master's thesis more likely to be reliable is being cited elsewhere, which Collier's is in several of the academic sources here ([https://journal.transformativeworks.org/index.php/twc/article/view/1465/1881], [https://books.google.com/books?id=zrG8DwAAQBAJ], [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?oi=bibs&hl=en&cites=13212687278216822153&as_sdt=5 google scholar pages gives 20 cites]. While that certainly isn't revolutionary it shows a certain degree of impact/respect by other scholarly sources, imo. I'm going to see what in there I can cite elsewhere, let's see if perhaps I can sidestep the question without removing much content. Rusalkii (talk) 06:18, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::Okay, that's two down, but that's the easy part, both of those had a second source saying pretty much the same thing right there. There's also "a BBC report on its interest in developing LGBT content", which I am very sure I read in multiple sources but am having trouble tracking down, stand by... and {{done}}.

::::::The hard part: I lean on her very heavily for the last paragraph of "The pairing". The problem here is that the vast majority of the sources talk about the fandom, not the pairing, and yet it feels wrong not to include anything at all about how it's actually written and what people are getting out of it. I did spend a fair bit of time trying to find higher-quality sources here, or at least more variety, and came up pretty blank. I think there's a bit in Why Fanfiction Is Taking Over The World, I think I gave up on extracting that because it's all rather vague but I'll see what I can do.

::::::This section is by far my weakest source-wise, I also use a fandom blogger who does analysis of AO3 stats every year (I think this is okay because it's just reporting numbers in one convenient place we could check ourselves, but I recognize this may be wistful thinking here). Rusalkii (talk) 06:32, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::WP:PARITY, second paragraph, might be on your side here. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:38, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:Also, re:surnames, for fictional characters I believe the style is to use how they're typically referred to within the story and/or by the author, which for the TV show is first names. Rusalkii (talk) 06:51, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::@Rusalkii Didn't know that, I was going by WP-knee-jerk, and Elementary was in my head. I can change it back, but is this mentioned in a MOS or essay somewhere? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:01, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Tried to find a YouTube compilation of Jonny Lee Miller yelling WATSON!!, but no luck. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:16, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::It's mentioned at MOS:SURNAME. I haven't seen the series, so I'll follow your lead here, I'll change it back if you say so. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:07, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::My memory of the series is to be honest extremely fuzzy and I never did see more than the first season, but you can see some examples of the characters using first names here: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sherlock_(TV_series). And the media uses first names as well, ex [https://www.dailydot.com/pop-culture/fandom/bbc-sherlock-watson-gay-club-scene-cut/]. Rusalkii (talk) 18:49, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::This source [https://journal.transformativeworks.org/index.php/twc/article/view/1465/1881] is pretty respectable. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:17, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::(Note that we should use surnames when referring to the original series characters -this convention is a pretty convenient way to distinguish between Holmes, Victorian gentleman, and Sherlock, 21st century detective.) Rusalkii (talk) 19:00, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

{{Talk:Johnlock/GA1}}