Talk:Josh Cahill#rfctag

Hello @Jpatokal and all, I would like to address the issue concerning the legal name of Josh Cahill respectfully.

The Freie Presse article from 2018 does indeed statement:

“Josh Cahill, der mit bürgerlichen Namen Aljoscha Wendholt heißt…”

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20201016140520/https://www.freiepresse.de/reiseblogger-muss-auf-dem-boden-bleiben-artikel10890298 (Archived version)

This statement seems to lack verification from more recent and direct sources. According to:

AP News (via KISS PR) claims that “an article states Josh Cahill legally changed his name in June 2016,” and goes on to provide a quote which states, “Josh Cahill legally changed his name in 2016 to better connect with his global audience.”

Source: https://apnews.com/press-release/kisspr/josh-cahill-melbourne-ef40c94efc4290904083ed384fed7112

Also, Airliners.de, a premier outlet for aviation news, refers to him as “Josh Cahill” in a professional aviation context without any reference to a former name.

Airliners.de article: https://www.airliners.de/hintergrund-luftfahrt-influencer-suessholzraspeln-schock-videos/78859

He Legally changed his name in 2016 and Govt. Body in Germany Responsible for this is Gemeindeverwaltung Mildenau https://www.mildenau.de/gemeinde/willkommen/grusswort/

The Freie Presse article does not appear to discuss the name change, and it is not uncommon for the first mention to be based on a more sensationalized version of the person’s name, previously used in the media. It seems to me that some explanation should be added to the article, or his name should be verifiably removed based on a newer update.

Thank you for your attention. Dogimarket (talk) 02:52, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:The article does not currently make any assertions about what his "legal" name is. Reliable sources prove he was born Aljoscha Wendholt, and obviously he uses the name Josh Cahill now. It's likely this is a legally registered Künstlername, but we don't have reliable sources for that, so the article doesn't mention that. Jpatokal (talk) 05:21, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::Source clearly mentions: In June 2016, his career in digital media was only just taking off, and in a bold decision, Josh opted to change the name Aljoscha Cahill-Wendholt to Josh Cahill legally.

::Second source:

::Geboren als Aljoscha Cahill-Wendholt am 17. Juni 1986 in Melbourne, Australien, wuchs Josh in einem multikulturellen Umfeld auf, geprägt von einer tschechischen Mutter und einem australischen Vater. Nachdem die Familie einige Zeit in Melbourne gelebt hatte, zog sie nach Deutschland, als Josh sieben Jahre alt war. 38.130.151.67 (talk) 05:38, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::Another source by the Australian quotes the following: "Melbourne-born Josh Cahill encourages his followers to “go travel your way”, while filming his adventures in..."

::Link here: [https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE170_a_GGL&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theaustralian.com.au%2Fnation%2Fno-amount-of-likes-is-worth-the-risks-dfats-warning-to-thrillseeking-travel-influencers%2Fnews-story%2F514fb09a54f812b64fbf2fdf78f72f6b&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium The Australian] 38.130.151.67 (talk) 05:43, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::[https://kisspr.com/ Kiss PR] is a marketing agency and the "AP News" article is a press release. The Australian's mention of Melbourne has been discussed previously, it's citogenesis or just taking Cahill's claims at face value.

:::I suppose we could note in the article that Cahill has repeatedly claimed to be Australian though. Jpatokal (talk) 10:41, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Where does Cahill claim to be Australian? The article by both airliners.de and the Australian make clear that he was born in Australia. Can you prove your citogenesis claim or is this something you made up? Sources are clear. 38.130.151.149 (talk) 01:42, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::The claims about Cahill being born in Australia stem from a paid article written by a public relations company, and provided to Associated Press.[https://apnews.com/press-release/kisspr/josh-cahill-melbourne-ef40c94efc4290904083ed384fed7112] Notice the banner on top stating "PRESS RELEASE: Paid Content from KISSPR. The AP news staff was not involved in its creation." WWGB (talk) 02:48, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::What's more, the credit at the end states "Original Source of the original story >> Josh Cahill: The Story Behind the Aviation Vlogger’s Name" with a link to his blog at https://gotravelyourway.com/. Unfortunately I can't actually find the "original story" anywhere on his site. Jpatokal (talk) 10:55, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::It's also important to point out that anything that doesn't fit Jpatokal's narrative is dismissed as citogenesis as he has shown extreme biased in the past towards the subject. He makes claims about artist names etc without any evidence. 38.130.151.149 (talk) 02:04, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::It's funny, whenever these anonymous IPs accuse me of "bias" or "agenda", they're always unable to articulate exactly what my bias or agenda is! A slavish devotion to reliable sources, mayhaps? Jpatokal (talk) 10:56, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Besides an archived article from 2008, which other sources do you have that back up the name claim and his place of birth? 38.130.151.149 (talk) 20:19, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Hi @38.130.151.149, I see that you've implemented your preferred version in this diff before reaching consensus here, please read WP:ONUS before making any future edits. Thank you. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 20:57, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Die Welt is considered a very reliable source, and importantly, their 2008 interview predates the creation of the Josh Cahill "professional brand" (to quote the PR). If you have any sources before 2016 that call him "Cahill" or reference Australia, I'm all ears. Jpatokal (talk) 00:25, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::This recent Focus Article refers to him as "German-Australian", given it is a very reliable source and they do their fact checking, can it be added to the article as well? Here is the link: https://www.focus.de/reisen/flug/mieses-urteil-nach-erstflug-von-neuer-airline-es-ist-eindeutig-veraltet_bf67ded9-d8e1-4cdd-844d-7b93e013dffc.html

:::::::::The Australian mentions "Melbourne-born Josh Cahill" - also a very reliable source. Airliners.de backs that up as well... all very reliable sources. Why are you denying any edits, given that Wikipedia is source based? MilesMogul87 (talk) 11:45, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::I'd also love to add that in many of his videos, Cahill is shown on his boarding pass which must match a legal name. For example in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpFy14yPYdU&t=558s at 01:29. 223.118.51.94 (talk) 13:08, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::See about WP:ABOUTSELF. If his name is in contention like here now, we can't really use primary sources. – robertsky (talk) 01:48, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

More claims to add to the mix! In [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezuP4Dxui-Y?feature=shared&t=662 Another Bulgaria Air DISASTER or Happy Ending?] starting around 11:00, Josh states the following (from Youtube's automatic transscripts): "my family moved to Germany when I was very young. we were refugees my mom is from the Czech Republic, my grandmother's from Ukraine, I went to a school in a little village and they didn't like me for the fact that I was not from Germany ... that's why I decided as soon as I turn 18 I'll leave Germany and I never lived there ever since you know so but that's pretty much what happened".

And [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FoVjeXIiZc?feature=shared&t=485 The END of CZECH AIRLINES! Onboard the Last Flight!] around 3:00: "as a Czech citizen myself"' and 8:00 "ever since she came uh to Germany or we came to Germany as refugees" 9:30 "because we 30 years ago we came to Germany as refugees uh we were uh claiming Asylum".

Obviously these are all unreliable first-party sources and, given what we've seen previously, I wouldn't be surprised if the videos disappear from Youtube as soon as this comment is published (hi Josh!), but maybe it's worth noting these claims in the article as well. Jpatokal (talk) 00:59, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

{{redacted}}

:A quick search shows that you are active on several forums as a fierce critic of Josh, {{redacted}}. This alone disqualifies you as a biased editor with an agenda. Your last edit claims says the following: "In two of his own videos published in 2024, Cahill said that he and his mother moved to Germany as refugees from Czechoslovakia when he was "very young", and that he remains a Czech citizen." - yet when you watch the video nowhere does he claim or say that he was born in Czechoslovakia but only his mom. Clear case of misinformation of yours, among many others.

:The video is still online and I doubt Josh is reading here and all this got into your head... so what is all this about and why are you denying anyone any edits that go against your idea of what it wrong and what is right? The sources are clear. MilesMogul87 (talk) 11:54, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:For the record, I have never posted anything on any forum regarding Josh outside this Talk page. And as you can see from the archives, it's very clear Josh (or someone with admin rights to his channel & websites) is reading and responding to these Talk pages, complete with multiple accounts banned for sockpuppetry.

:Re: Czech claims, both videos above state that "we", meaning both Josh and his mother, moved to Germany as refugees. It doesn't say anything about place of birth, but if he was born in Australia to an Australian father, why would he be in Czechoslovakia as a child applying for refugee status? Jpatokal (talk) 22:24, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{tq|"if he was born in Australia to an Australian father, why would he be in Czechoslovakia as a child applying for refugee status?"}} – I think this is wading deep into wp:or and wp:synth waters. Its not useful to speculate like this, our job as editors is to stick to whatever reliable sources say, that's it. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 22:31, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:::That's my current approach to the article: report what the sources say, even when they're contradictory, and let the reader sort it out.

:::However, this does not mean we need to give the sources equal weight or credibility. For example, we're all in agreement that he's German, but the evidence for him being Australian is spotty at best and that's why that claim should not be mentioned in the lead. Jpatokal (talk) 22:38, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::::{{tq|"That's my current approach to the article: report what the sources say"}} – In this diff you added that {{tq|"Cahill said that he and his mother moved to Germany as refugees from Czechoslovakia"}}, but according to the transcripts above that is not what was said. It says that their mother is Czech, their grandmother is Ukranian, and that they immigrated to Germany as refugees. It does not say they immigrated from Czechoslovakia. So again, this is wading deep into wp:or and wp:synth waters, we should stick to exactly what sources say and nothing else. I would ask that you edit that part to match the source in whichever way you see fit. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 22:52, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Mmkay, I would not have thought it was a leap too far to say they came from Czechoslovakia (you have to be a refugee from somewhere, no?), but fair enough. Here's the new version: {{tq|Cahill said that his mother is Czech, that they moved to Germany as refugees when he was "very young", and that he remains a Czech citizen.}} Jpatokal (talk) 23:53, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::That is strictly speaking, accurate, but may be somewhat leading or undue. Regardless, its not something I'm going to object to. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 00:19, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::The edit done yesterday by WWGB totally fine and a great compromise of the previous edits these days as sources are strong and reliable. 223.118.51.94 (talk) 01:39, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Wikipedia is based on sources and edits have been done according to those and not on what YOU think is YOUR reality. Sources agree with the current edit and were also put in place by other editors yesterday. MilesMogul87 (talk) 01:21, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

I wish to stay anonymous. I'm slightly concerned that any sources provided are rejected by Jpatokal without his willingness to even find a solution, including sarcastic and demeaning comments such as these:

^{"Obviously these are all unreliable first-party sources and, given what we've seen previously, I wouldn't be surprised if the videos disappear from Youtube as soon as this comment is published (hi Josh!), but maybe it's worth noting these claims in the article as well."}

He assumes that he is in a battle with Josh himself? To me this looks like a personal grudge and much bias. I'm sure that Airliners.de, The Focus (very reliable source) or even The Australian have done their fact checking to verify that he was born in Australia. Your whole perception is based on a single archived article from 2008 and as Airliners points out, he legally changed his name in 2016 and re-confirms his birthplace. Frankly to me, all this makes sense and lines up.

My question is, why are you rejecting all these sources? 223.118.51.94 (talk) 12:31, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:You are misreading the edit history: I added the Czech sources to the article.

:Josh's own videos are reliable references for his own claims; however, they do not prove that those statements are true. Jpatokal (talk) 22:11, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::I agree that you go against all credible and very reliable sources and force your own version and edits on this subject. The edit yesterday was done using these in line with guidelines and sources are clear. MilesMogul87 (talk) 01:28, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Be civil and assume good faith, this is not optional. There is clear reasonable contention over the country of birth as some sources say Australia and others, like [https://archive.ph/20240121035400/https://www.welt.de/welt_print/article2976469/15-Millionen-Schritte-bis-nach-Shanghai.html die Welt], state Germany. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 01:40, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Thanks for your feedback - as mentioned just a single source mentions Germany while many other and recent ones including Foucs, The Australian or Airliners.de state Melbourne as birthplace or refer to him as Australian. The current edit reflects this very well. MilesMogul87 (talk) 01:45, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{ping|MilesMogul87}} as a new user

:::::who is clearly familiar with Mediawiki editing and conventions and edits this article nearly exclusively, would you like to disclose any potential WP:COI? Jpatokal (talk) 01:55, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Why can't I contribute as a new editor? You refusing to accept reliable sources seem like a potential conflict of interest. You are not willing or seeking for a compromise and other editors have pointed that out as well. Sources used are reliable as per guidelines. MilesMogul87 (talk) 02:01, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I agree that Jpatokal shows no interest in sources and accuses everyone who disagrees with his views. MilesMogul87 and WWGB have used reliable sources for their edits as per guidelines. 223.118.51.94 (talk) 02:08, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

The current edit by WWGB:

"There are conflicting accounts of Cahill's early life. According to Die Welt, reported in 2008, he was born in Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany.

In a January 2025 article in Airliners.de, it was published that he was born in Melbourne, Australia as Aljoscha Cahill-Wendholt, but moved to Germany at the age of 7 and legally changed his name to Josh Cahill in 2016. The Australian mentioned "Melbourne-born Josh Cahill", while Focus also referred to Cahill as German-Australian."

Given that this is backed by strong sources and fact checked, I'm happy to go ahead with WWGB last edit. If you have any other recommendations or sources that should be considered, please feel free to add. I hope consensus can be achieved here. Thanks :) MilesMogul87 (talk) 12:32, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:Welp, the article has been rewound back to where we were on May 4th, so even though MilesMogul87 has been banned, I suppose this is as good a place to flesh out what we want this to look like. My two cents:

:* The "German" description in the lead is fine as is: nobody disputes that he is German.

:* The Early life section should mention all three sourced options in chronological order: the "born in Germany" version (Die Welt), the "Czech refugee" version (Josh's own videos), and the "born in Australia" version (the recent press release & articles).

:I'm slightly conflicted on the real name. While I, personally, think plain old Aljoscha Wendholt is the most likely and best sourced option, we probably need at least a footnote noting his insistence on the Wendholt-Cahill version. Jpatokal (talk) 22:20, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::I think the place of origin chronology above would be fine, so long as the refugee part is accurate to the source as discussed prior. As for the name, would you have any objections to stating the subject's current name foremost as "Josh Cahill" and list "Aljoscha Wendholt" as either a "former" or "born as" name? I think that WP:COMMONNAME and WP:SPNC would support this. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 00:34, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Sounds good to me. {{ping|WWGB}} you've been actively editing as well, how does this sound? Jpatokal (talk) 00:56, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

Josh: we all know you read this page. Please consider signing up as Josh Cahill and requesting verification through WP:VRT. This would make it so much easier to communicate, and it would let you request that your real name is removed entirely from Wikipedia. (Mind you, I can't guarantee that request will succeed, especially now that you've published press releases about the subject, but I'm not going to be one making that call.)

I know you find this hard to believe, but nobody here is "out to get you", we're just random editors who care about having an accurate encyclopedia. So if you want to have a Wikipedia page that tells your rather fascinating life story accurately, please work with us! Jpatokal (talk) 22:11, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{tq|"we all know you read this page"}} – I find it much more likely that any apparent single purpose accounts editing here would be from Cahill's large followership, rather than Cahill themselves. The above is just jawing at shadows, maybe its Cahill's shadow, but that's unknowable and unhelpful besides. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 22:56, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::We've previously established that [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJosh_Cahill&diff=1209088492&oldid=1198095476 videos posted on Josh's YouTube channel have been deleted in immediate response to comments made here], and another editor went to the [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ASockpuppet_investigations%2FTanhasahu&diff=1210692953&oldid=1210687830 trouble of correlating some of those IPs with Josh's known timestamps at various locations]. Now I'm not saying Josh is personally behind every edit here, but it seems rather unlikely that he is not involved at all.

::Anyway, my suggestion was quite serious. If Josh would like to set the record straight, then this is the way to do it, and on the off chance that all this is coming from his legions of ardent fans, maybe they can pass the message on. Jpatokal (talk) 23:58, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Thank you for the context, that's certainly a fair amount of correlated removals, but I'm still not comfortable with wagging a finger at the article's subject specifically about it. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 00:20, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I've removed the finger-wagging: I still think it's justified, but it's unlikely to be helpful. Jpatokal (talk) 00:54, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:Fascinating to follow all this! I doubt though he is following this page or is involved though. I'm sure it's rather from his followers and haters alike. I'm sure he has more important things to do. I have listened to a podcast of him recently where he speaks quite openly about his name etc. I don't think he has anything to hide. Have you tried to reach out to him or his team to get a statement? It would clear up a lot of things and ends speculation. You seem very invested into this topic so why not reach out and let us all know? That would be a great approach and would shine some light on this. 80.187.100.50 (talk) 13:52, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{tq|Have you tried to reach out to him or his team to get a statement?"}} – Terrible idea, nobody do this. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 17:33, 26 May 2025 (UTC)