Talk:Karen (slang)#Sexism and misogyny

:I'm very perplexed by how racialized this article is. The vast, vast majority of Karen interactions online do not involve a racial element but reading this you would think they all so. 2601:19C:527F:FB00:C1F1:56AB:8204:F92D (talk) 19:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

::I assume what you're talking about is things like asking to speak to the manager rather than calling the cops? It's probably pretty likely those kinds of interactions don't get covered in media, so yeah, unless someone is discussing that somewhere, we don't have a source for inclusion. If you have a source saying something like "the vast majority of Karen interactions do not involve a racial element", we can add that. Without a source, we really can't. Valereee (talk) 13:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

:::The above writer points this out how racialized this article is. It is very racialized. The first three sentences include these elements:

:::Karen is a ... white ... woman

:::...depicting ... white women who "use their white ... privilege

:::...being racist

:::The article offers no explanation, evidence or sources to justify this assertion.

:::Your position appears to be that the un-evidenced and un-sources assertion will stand until the above writer provides evidence that you are wrong. No. That is not how it works. You, and the article generally, must provide explanation, evidence or sources to justify this assertion in the first place. PeterColdridge (talk) 02:09, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

::::These statements all are sourced, I believe? Valereee (talk) 14:51, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I wanted to point out that the term Karen started as a pejorative all the way back in 1998 and has been in use since then. It stemmed from a flame war in an AOL chat forum (yes AOL) that was focused on the tv show Will & Grace and the character "Karen" who was Grace's assistant. While a niche term until around 2005, it gained traction in various forums from the time, especially on Myspace posts. Widespread adaptation didn't take off until 2018 when it became conflated with the "can I speak to your manager" haircut meme, taking on new connotative meaning associated with that meme, rather than its original use as a pejorative, which was: a loud or obnoxious woman, often drunk or inebriated, and with whom there was difficulty in handling. When the two terms conflated, the meaning shifted to an individual who was arrogant, demanding, and unreasonable, often to the extreme. While they were similar, the new meaning eclipsed the prior uses, which is likely why the origin seems to have been lost and prior referential uses lost. FriarMartin (talk) 21:24, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

:I wondered about this exact thing for a long time but I've reached the conclusion that the contemporary usage of Karen doesn't come from Karen Walker of Will and Grace. In current usage, the Karen stereotype is a middle-class woman with a bob cut who feels she is entitled to better service in a store (or indeed everywhere else) and thus demands to see the manager. Apart from the bob cut, Karen Walker is none of these things. She's not middle-class, she's decidedly upper-class, she is never seen shopping in a store (why would she when she has people to provision the residence for her), and I don't think she would ever demand to see a manager of any store (she has no need to, not having set foot in one since her marriage to Stan). 2A02:1811:42F:F00:B1A7:805F:7521:3CA9 (talk) 14:04, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

I've always believed the usage of "Karen" really became big after the SNL skit black jeopardy with Chadwick Boseman (original black panther actor, that sadly died young of colon cancer). In that 2018 SNL skit, "Karen" is a Caucasian woman that's nice and noble for bringing potato salad to share, but it's bland and has raisins, so is oblivious to black culture. The joke being that not just anyone can bring the potato salad. It's like bringing Ambrosia (fruit salad with marshmallows) to a party in the South or Midwest, but not making it pink. Since then the usage of Karen seems to have changed from a white woman that's nice, but oblivious of black culture, to instead someone that's entitled. 108.18.208.58 (talk) 23:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

In the BBC film "In the Loop" (2009) one of minor characters is named "Karen" and matches all of the characteristics of "a Karen".

I've read the discussion and there are earlier references but they relate to somewhat questionable sources.

Do people think this is worthy of inclusion in the main article? 124.148.184.36 (talk) 10:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:If this is just something you've noticed yourself while watching the film: no, that would be WP:OR. Wikipedia would need a secondary source to have commented on it. Belbury (talk) 11:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

{{Edit semi-protected|Karen (slang)|answered=yes}}

Add the text seen below, from Percival Everett's 1996 book Watershed (ISBN 10: 1555972373; ISBN 13: 9781555972370), page 90:

For the term "Karen", several possible origins have been proposed.[11] Early uses of Karen as a joke punchline include Percival Everett referencing Denver as "The Karen of cities", the airheaded character Karen (played by Amanda Seyfried) from the 2004 film Mean Girls, Dane Cook's 2005 sketch "The Friend Nobody Likes" on his album Retaliation,[12] and a 2016 Internet meme regarding a woman in an ad for the Nintendo Switch console who exhibits perceived antisocial behavior and is given the nickname "antisocial Karen". Sdanielbacon (talk) 02:14, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:So Percival Everett is saying Percival Everett is the possible origin? We don't consider that a reliable source, I'm afraid. Valereee (talk) 15:35, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{re|Valereee}} I could be wrong, but I think that the OP is saying that Percival Everett is the possible origin because Everett used "The Karen of cities" in one of his books (though I have no idea in what context). M.Bitton (talk) 22:05, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Ah! Thank you, @M.Bitton. So, @Sdanielbacon, we need to see someone somewhere connecting that passage by Everett to the concept of Karen, we can't make that connection based on our own knowledge. Valereee (talk) 20:28, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Looking up the 1996 fiction book Watershed online, Everett writes: {{tqb|Conditions in Denver always seemed extreme, never drizzling but flooding, never a dusting of snow or flurries but blizzards and sheets of ice, hail, tornadoes. The Karen of cities.}} There's no further explanation, it just seems to be the narrator referencing the name of another character in the book. Belbury (talk) 20:37, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Thanks, Belbury. So probably unrelated, especially if no other analysis is bringing it into the conversation. Just another Karen. Valereee (talk) 21:39, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{not done}}: not supported by the cited source. M.Bitton (talk) 23:10, 18 May 2025 (UTC)