Talk:List of Jewish fraternities and sororities#Clarification on closures

To ensure a discussion about this doesn't go down the memory hole, here is the history, to date, of attempts to create a Wikipedia article for the Canadian Jewish sorority, Delta Pi.[https://www.deltapisorority.org/ Delta Pi's National Website], accessed 15 Sept 2020.

A stub article for the sorority had been created in 2005, but deleted on a thin vote as not being WP:Notable. A second attempt at a stub (~very limited info) page had been offered in 2010, but this had also been deleted on a thin vote for the same reason. These were probably fair deletions due to lack of content or quality of the articles, but may have created a bias against the group. An article for an unaffiliated movie, 1985's "Mugsy's Girls" then began using the "Delta Pi" namespace as a redirect some time in 2015, taking readers to the article about the movie because it used the same name for a fictitious sorority.

In 2020 I wrote a comprehensive article for Delta Pi in a style that matches others within the scope of the Fraternity and Sorority project, replacing the movie redirect, but again, this was deleted by a vote on notability concerns after some discussion and my attempts to add more sources. I was concerned about bias, stating this in the discussion. But the vote to Delete won on a slight margin.

I thought it unfair, as many Greek society articles include a note at the top, asking for additional references. The fact of Delta Pi's existence was proven; but it was the notability issue that was of concern. Those against the page were rather passionate in their claims that the references were bad - more passionate than is shown toward many, many pages on Wikipedia that similarly have thin references.

Greek societies commonly show notability via several standard methods:

• References to the de facto standard reference book in the Greek Society world, Baird's Manual.
• Linkage to college or university Student Organization list websites, which confirm that a society is a valid, recognized student organization.
• Yearbooks, where pages about the society are offered in linkable, or published form.
• News articles in national or otherwise notable newspapers, magazines or other publications that discuss the group, with more than a passing mention: An article about Greek life, with photo(s), quotes and information about a group should be sufficient.

But in the case of Delta Pi, such references were lean: The organization emerged as a local just prior to the most recent printing of Baird's, so it was missed. Canadian universities in almost all cases do not recognize social fraternities or sororities as student groups, so they are not mentioned (typically) on institutional websites.While these schools do not recognize social fraternities or sororities, as in the case of York, per [https://secretariat-policies.info.yorku.ca/policies/presidential-regulation-number-5-regulation-denying-official-status-to-fraternities-and-sororities/ a 1990 presidential directive on the matter], on an unofficial or sub rosa basis, they exist. Yearbooks are uncommon now, and I was unable to find one listing Delta Pi from any of the schools it serves. Finally, though there was some mention of Delta Pi in smaller community papers and on student websites, these were of limited notability themselves. What I did find were the following references:

As noted in [https://ryersonian.ca/ryes-big-fat-greek-secret/ The Ryersonian, a journal by journalism students at Ryerson University, and a Dec 2016 article on the lively campus connection to Delta Pi, and others among the Toronto "Greek Scene"]. Article accessed 16 Sept 2020

[https://www.cjnews.com/featured/jewish-learning/jewish-fraternity-holds-largest-fundraiser Canadian Jewish News reports in the inaugural Walk With Israel event, where AEPi and Delta Pi were noted participants], accessed 16 Sept 2020.

The sorority's 23-year (then) history of philanthropy is [https://thepmcf.ca/Events-OLD/Events/2017/Ribbon-Roses-Charity-Auction noted in a 2018 article on the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation website]. Accessed 16 Sept 2020.

[https://hillelontario.org/ryerson/resources-friends-on-campus/ Noted on Ryerson's Hillel website as an active group], accessed 16 Sept 2020.

Noted on the [http://www.macinsiders.com/showthread.php/mcmaster-sororities-74187.html MacInsiders website, for the McMaster Student Community], accessed 16 Sept 2020

Canadian universities do not suppress all mention of Greek activity. [https://religiousstudies.mcmaster.ca/news/religious-studies-student-off-to-israel-for-winter-term Numerous examples of Linked In pages or university articles note participation of individual members], as in this 2017 article on a student travelling to Israel. Article accessed 16 Sept 2020.

The sorority is linked on several Canadian social media sites, such as [https://canadiansororities-blog.tumblr.com/post/34847610820/delta-pi this national list], accessed 15 Sept 2020.

Local community newspapers regularly list [https://excal.on.ca/exploring-sororities-and-fraternities-at-york/ Delta Pi among campus organizations], like this 2015 Excalibur article, accessed 16 Sept 2020.

Student blog [https://yorkulife.tumblr.com/post/51942476582/what-is-a-sororityfraternity-and-are-there/amp York U Life notes the prevalence of sub rosa organizations, including Delta Pi, and in spite of official lack of support], in an article accessed 16 Sept 2020.

Delta Pi [https://bbyo.ca/partners/ is noted as a partner organization by 96-year old BBYO], a pluralistic, global Jewish teen movement aspiring to involve more Jewish teens in more meaningful Jewish experiences. Accessed 16 Sept 2020. --They include regional papers, mention on Hillel and B'nai Brith websites as significant sponsors, mention of longstanding support by large, 100-year old notable charitable foundations, and several student group lists and blogs. I'd also found a comprehensive list of Ontario Non-Profit entities, where the Beta chapter is listed. See [https://www.canadiancharitylaw.ca/uploads/List_of_Ontario_Non-Profit_Corporations_finally_released_by_Mark_Blumberg.pdf this list, from Canadian Charity Law], accessed 12 Oct 2020.

I thought these showed a preponderance of evidence that this 30-year old organization existed, and was notable. But not quite good enough.

Existence seems proven: Even without Baird's, yearbooks, official university recognition or national press, clearly, these Canadian fraternities and sororities exist.

Assuming that 30-year-old Delta Pi will continue its operations, when additional references of notability pop up, please add them here. It would be terrific to see an official university website listing them. Or stronger mention on the websites of charitable recipients, or their local Hillel centers. Or mention in a major newspaper. I've kept a copy of the WP article; once additional references would pass this strangely, and zealously applied bar of notability, I'll offer up the page again, with these additional references.

For your review, here is the deletion discussion

And for the record, I have no affiliation with the sorority; am not Canadian, nor Jewish, and am not female. Jax MN (talk) 19:31, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

{{Reflist-talk}}

Phi Sigma Sigma had been on this list since inception, but a recent edit removed the sorority. They were founded as a non-sectarian group, at a time when many other sororities were limited to Christians (or Protestants, specifically), or to Jews. Hence, many, but not all of Phi Sigma Sigma's founders were Jewish. Many influential leaders, and notable members were Jewish. But again, these were a portion of the membership and not all.

Ought they be categorized here, on this list? They strike me as similar to Tau Delta Phi fraternity, which has called itself secular since 1932. Before I move to return Phi Sigma Sigma to the list, with a note indicating its secular beginnings but that it was one of the relatively few sororities welcoming to Jewish sisters, your thoughts? Jax MN (talk) 22:32, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

:Going Greek includes them, but perhaps they belong on a separate sublist on the page along with Tau Delta Phi. I'd actually go off of whether all of their founders were Jewish.Naraht (talk)