Talk:Lohengrin (opera)

Anote on this talk page abt the copyright status of the 1920s guide referred to would go a long way toward preventing the article being tagged as a copyvio. --Jerzy(t) 18:56, 2005 Jan 7 (UTC)

I'm moving this page to Lohengrin (opera) to start a page on the character of Lohengrin.--Cuchullain 00:30, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

The plot summary actually omits one of the most crucial scenes -- the duet in which Ortrud, Iago-like, tries to encourage Elsa's doubts about her hero. Otherwise, why would Else break her word?

:Fixed. SingingZombie (talk) 06:17, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that while some legends connect Parsifal with King Arthur, nothing is made of this is the opera, where Parsifal is a king of a mystical realm and apparently has no king over him. So does this really belong with a King Arthur project?

:The plot summary abruptly mentions Ortrud without explaining that she is Telramund's wife, which is crucial to her motivation. CharlesTheBold (talk) 11:48, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

::As far as I can see, the very first mention of her in the synopsis is in Act 1 and it states the relationship quite clearly:

:::Telramund's wife, Ortrud, a pagan woman, does not join the prayer of the monotheists, but privately expresses confidence that Telramund will win.

::Voceditenore (talk) 12:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

The statement that Lohengrin tarried only to prove Elsa innocent makes no sense. She was declared innocent two acts ago, and they were married! The real reason he tarried was that he thought the people deserved an explanation for why he had to leave (violating his marriage vow to Elsa and his feudal oath to the King).

76.122.75.11 (talk) 20:09, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

CharlesTheBold 03:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

:Category:Operas by Richard Wagner is a category within :Category:Operas by composer which is in turn a category within :Category:Operas. — Robert Greer (talk) 13:33, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

:Please do not remove :Category:Operas from articles on operas, regardless of their sub-categories. As it says on the top of that page:

:It has been agreed after discussion in the Wikipedia Opera Project that all opera title articles will be included in this main category to enable searching by users.

:- Voceditenore (talk) 13:39, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Ortrud is a mezzo, not a soprano. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.243.185 (talk) 02:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

:Thanks for the fix.

Should the article mention that the opera is written in German? I know that's obvious to Wagner experts, but this is an encyclopedia for the masses. 76.173.99.102 (talk) 20:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

An anon user added a most interesting fact (?) to the performance history about Verdi attending the Italian premiere. Unfortunately, no reference was provided. Can anyone with access to a reliable source corroborate this? Francesco Malipiero (talk) 23:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

:I'm a bit puzzled by the above: first, the anon user says that Verdi attended on the 9th November, which wasn't the Italian premiere (the premiere was on 1 November), and, second, a reference was indeed provided - and surely, the Istituto Nazionale di Studi Verdiani counts as a reliable source? FWIW, Julian Budden (Vol 3 p.186) says that Verdi attended "a performance", clearly not the premiere, during the run.

:Incidentally, there are far too many red links in the Performance History section. --GuillaumeTell 16:16, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

::My mistake about the date, but the ref was not there when I saw the edit (there was a "ref name=studi" without text and an error message at the bottom of the article). The text for the ref was added later by a bot, and it is now clear that this info was copied from the article on conductor Angelo Mariani.Best. Francesco Malipiero (talk) 18:07, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I went through the sea of red linked singers in the Performance history section checking for incoming links. I'd recommend keeping the following:

Gabrielle Krauss{{•}}Étienne Troy{{•}}Anna D'Angeri{{•}}Auguste Vianesi{{•}}Giuseppe Kaschmann{{•}}Caroline Fiérens-Peters{{•}}Charles Douaillier{{•}}Maurice-Arnold Renaud

They are all linked from Wikipedia:Music encyclopedia topics and/or were role-creators in other operas. I think the rest could be usefully de-linked. Voceditenore (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

:De-linked the rest. --GuillaumeTell 18:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm transferring the following comment by User:Kenw44wiki here to the talk page. It had been placed in the article itself.

"I believe the Keilberth recording features Elenor Steber as Elsa, not Birgit Nilsson"

Voceditenore (talk) 07:06, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Proposing that Ortrud be merged into this article. Normally we don't have articles on fictional characters that don't have a literature of their own (as, for example, Lohengrin obviously does have). The Ortrud article is exclusively concerned with the opera. Kleinzach 02:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

:Since no one has objected to the merger proposal in more than a year, I have completed the merger. Neelix (talk) 18:20, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

::The subsequent move of Lohengrin (opera) to Lohengrin (Wagner) was unnecessary and not supported by Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Article guidelines#Operas: disambiguation. Wide-ranging moves like these ought to be discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

:::The controversial move has been discussed here and here and has now been reverted. Prhartcom (talk) 05:25, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I have reverted the infobox to the previous template, as there should have been a discussion on this page first. As there have been a number of one-off insertions of infoboxes in Wagnerian operas, I am raising the issue at WP:Opera and WP:Wagner.--Smerus (talk) 10:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

In the printed score on page 267 at the end of the second act Wagner specifies 10 (visible) on-stage trumpets as follows:

3 trumpets in C on the right (auf dem Thurme rechts),

3 trumpets in C on the left (auf dem Söller links) and

4 trumpets in C in front of the palace (vor dem Palast).

Additionally, in the orchestral interlude of act III scene 3 on page 321 Wagner needs 12 trumpets approaching from different directions (left-right) in the backstage as follows:

2 trumpets in E-flat (Es),

2 trumpets in F,

2 trumpets in D,

2 trumpets in E and

4 trumpets in C.

In both scenes there are 3 trumpets in C in the pit, so a performance of the full score requires 15 trumpet players playing in turn 21 different instruments as follows:

13 trumpets in C,

2 trumpets in D,

2 trumpets in E flat,

2 trumpets in E and

2 trumpets in F.

I would appreciate if one the editors of this page could check the facts and make the appropriate corrections. I am using a 1982 Dover reprint of the 1877 Neue Ausgabe of Breitkopf & Härtel, Leipzig.

regards

Jorma Koskinen — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jormakos (talk • contribs) 15:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

May someone tell me why the opera has been removed from this category? While it is true that the entire opera is not a patriotic one, at least the beginning of act III qualifies as patriotic music. -- Orthographicus (talk) 06:52, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

{{Substituted comment|length=2205|lastedit=20150322230837|comment=Marginal (low end) Start class (30 points). All sections need development including:

• A full performance history section
• A full synopsis (including German/English arias)
• References etc etc.

-- Kleinzach 02:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Just scrapes into Start class. Comments as per Kleinzach, plus:

• A lot more background is required
• Much more on the music and critical appreciation
• Better listing of recordings
• At least one image

--GuillaumeTell 21:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

33/100 weak Start class. Agree with above comments. Comments in detail follow.

• Background/history of composition/discussion of plot and/or text, etc. 4/15 Decent coverage of sources, no discussion of composition, Wagner fleeing Dresden etc. And RW won't have heard of Ludwig to encourage him to unite Germany.
• Performance history, including recent performance history and creators of roles

6/15. need to expand on evidence of immediate popular success, mention that is part of Bayreuth canon and indicate how often it is performed there and elsewhere today etc.

• Tabulated list of roles 4/5. Need to find full name of original villains.
• Synopsis 5/10. Needs to be expansion based on the libretto. E.g. Telramund's four knoghts are not mentioned. Also needs to be in modern English. "And lo" particularly annoyed me.
• Notable arias, etc: 2/5 Need to identify more of the arias and in English in the place they occur in the synopsis.
• Critical appreciation, discussion of music etc 2/15. A few pieces mentioned but needs full discussion.
• Illustrations 3/10. Good to have a musical illustration. Perhaps some more of famous extracts and arias would help. Needs some pictures too. Lohengrin is a popular subject for illustrations and was when images now out of copywrite were made.
• Recordings 4/10 should identify cast (at least the 5 pricipals). Dates should be dates of recording. List sould be fuller or at least criteria for selection identified and historic recordings identified.
• Inline references, notes, sources, external links 3/15. Need to start inline referencing. Better wbsites will be available.--Peter cohen 12:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)}}

Substituted at 22:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Whatever the translation of Neuschwanstein (I wouldn't translate it at all, we have a link), I don't believe this place is lead material when the lead contains so little about the work itself. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:07, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

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Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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I've added the history of the opera's composition. I have moved the existing material into a new section called 'Musical Style' which is in keeping with heading in Millington's Compendium.

--Flourbomb (talk) 17:31, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I've added new material which is an introduction to the musical style, removed the existing material which was flagged as unreferenced, and, for that matter, inaccurate. --Flourbomb (talk) 14:00, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Now that the connoisseurs and specialists have filled the article with inexpressible levels of detail, could I, speaking as a user of the reference, suggest that it is more user-friendly to move the Synopsis from #7, to #2, right after the Contents box. Most people seeking information here will want to start with what the Opera IS, a story about two people etc., and later get into its origins and after that the details of how it was composed, its structure, etc. Thank you.

~dpablo, seattle, wa usa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:9200:B330:8529:5804:81FB:7D20 (talk) 22:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

What do others think of this fact and reference:

There was however an 1881 French performance given as a Benefit, in the Cercle de la Méditerranée Salon at Nice, organized by Sophie Cruvelli, in which she took the role of Elsa.

ref: Elizabeth Forbes, [http://arts.jrank.org/pages/7792/Sophie-Cruvelli-Sophie-Cr%C3%BCwell-(-Jeanne-Sophie-Cruvelli-)-(-Charlotte-Sophie-Cruvelli-).html 'Sophie Cruvelli' (short biography)] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110726211534/http://arts.jrank.org/pages/7792/Sophie-Cruvelli-Sophie-Cr%C3%BCwell-(-Jeanne-Sophie-Cruvelli-)-(-Charlotte-Sophie-Cruvelli-).html |date=26 July 2011 }}, Arts.jrank.org Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:15, 16 August 2022 (UTC)