Talk:Máximo Pacheco (politician, born 1953)#Requested move 17 March 2025

:The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is that the current title is the common name. – robertsky (talk) 15:01, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

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:Máximo Pacheco (politician, born 1953) → {{no redirect|Máximo Pacheco Matte}} – I made the mistake to move it away from Máximo Pacheco Matte to Máximo Pacheco which then became a disambiguation page including Máximo Pacheco Matte and his father Máximo Pacheco Gómez. Erosiva (talk) 19:12, 16 March 2025 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). C F A 21:27, 17 March 2025 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:12, 28 March 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 11:40, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose, COMMONNAME for both politicians seems to omit maternal surname. Ortizesp (talk) 13:52, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
• :Wrong, Spanish naming customs -that is the inclusion of maternal surname- are widely used in English Wikipedia to differentiate articles and are preferable to cumbersome parenthesis and commas as well as the unimendional charecterization that a single occupation implies. In the case of Máximo Pacheco Matte he is economist and politician. Erosiva (talk) 18:21, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
• Support. I agree with {{u|Erosiva}}, esp. re "cumbersome": Spanish naming customs give us a WP:NATURAL disambiguation method that complies with both WP:NCPDAB's {{tpq|when there is a usual way of distinguishing two people of the same name, use it,}} and its suggestion to steer clear of birth and death years as disambiguators {{tpq|as readers are more likely to be seeking this information than to already know it}}. And Pacheco Gómez, at least, appears to be more commonly known by the double surname. Moscow Mule (talk) 20:24, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:*I find it upsetting that User:Ortizesp made us waste time in this. I admit I committed an error in moving in the first place, but to not be able to remedy this quickly is dissapointing. Also User:CFA removed my posting here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AM%C3%A1ximo_Pacheco_%28politician%2C_born_1953%29&diff=1281028463&oldid=1281028405 ] where I explained a bit better the argument. So I reproduce it here again:

::::Máximo Pacheco (politician, born 1953) → {{no redirect|Máximo Pacheco Matte}} – I made the mistake to move it away from Máximo Pacheco Matte to Máximo Pacheco which then became a disambiguation page including Máximo Pacheco Matte and his father Máximo Pacheco Gómez. I was not aware of the existence of Máximo Pacheco Gómez then. Spanish naming customs -that is the inclusion of maternal surname- are widely used in English Wikipedia to differentiate articles and are preferable to cumbersome parenthesis and commas as well as the unimendional characterization that a single occupation implies. In the case of Máximo Pacheco Matte he is economist and politician. For camprison on similar name usage see Eduardo Frei Ruiz-Tagle, Eduardo Frei Montalva and Eduardo Frei. Erosiva (talk) 21:34, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::For another example of editors tying themselves up in knots trying to decide on acceptable parenthetical disambiguator when the second surname offers a perfectly natural and commonly used alternative, see Talk:Óscar Ramírez (terrorist)#Requested move 6 March 2025. Moscow Mule (talk) 22:33, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Maternal surname is often not a good disambiguator when they're not commonly used, and I'm not convinced it's useful in this case. Especially in the English Wikipedia. Ortizesp (talk) 13:29, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::Maternal surname desambiguator is even in widespread use by Spanish and Latin American academics themselves in their English-language publications. In other words, it is a "natural" disambiguator and is recognised as such by thousands of Spanish and Latin American academics worldwide. This is an undeniable fact. Erosiva (talk) 16:33, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:::To be fair, you can't exactly say they're wasting anybody's time. The editor responded because they clearly have an opinion, this discussion being one of the best places to present said opinion. This is part of how consensus is reached on broad topics. Yes, on some level it amounts to "x yells at cloud", but I would reject the notion that anybody's time is being wasted. All of this is optional, after all. ASUKITE 18:40, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. WP:COMMONNAME applies and that clearly omits his maternal surname. Rather than being "wrong" and "wasting our time", Ortizesp is in fact entirely correct. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:40, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

::So by extension you would apply that to Eduardo Frei Ruiz-Tagle and Eduardo Frei Montalva both of whom have the WP:COMMONNAME Eduardo Frei? Unidemensional characterization by a single occupation, parenthesis and commas instead of commonly accepted norms makes no sense and further, it will open up to more disputes biography titles than there are already. Erosiva (talk) 16:52, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:::I have no idea why you think Spanish names should be some sort of an exception to WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:20, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Because the inclusion of the second suranme in Spanish names is the WP:COMMONNAME when disamguation is needed. I dubt you realize the Pandora's box you views will open up for hundreds of articles. Also, many of these articles does not have an English common name and reistance to Spanish language common name disambiguator is hard to understand. Erosiva (talk) 16:14, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::It might be in Spanish-speaking countries, but it isn't in English-speaking countries, and this is English Wikipedia. We have our own standards and one of them is WP:COMMONNAME, which this clearly breaches. {{tq|I dubt you realize the Pandora's box you views will open up for hundreds of articles.}} Having worked on disambiguation and requested moves for years, I can assure you it won't. You, on the other hand, appear to have been here for all of two months! With all due respect, may I suggest you look into English Wikipedia standards before making patronising comments like that and trying to change the way we do things. Using the maternal surname to disambiguate Spanish names would be no different from using the middle name to disambiguate English names; we just don't do it unless those names are commonly used to refer to the individual. See the last sentence of WP:MIDDLE. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:20, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::WP:NATURAL says {{tpq|an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title, is sometimes preferred}}, and that parenthetic disambiguation is the standard {{tpq|when none of the other solutions lead to an optimal article title}}. Isn't that the case here? The main problem is that these Pacheco chaps are seldom referred to in English by any name – we're not talking George W. Bush and George H. W. Bush here – and the natural disambiguation afforded by the maternal surname hasn't really been necessary in the wider non-Wikipedia world since his dad died in 2012, but "Máximo Pacheco Matte" is not {{tpq|obscure or made-up}}, viz: [https://foroinversionesmagallanes.cl/?popuppress=maximo-pacheco-eng], [https://www.bnamericas.com/en/news/bachelet-taps-businessman-maximo-pacheco-as-energy-minister], [https://energyandmines.com/2015/04/chilean-energy-minister-to-open-santiago-summit-on-mining-and-renewables/], [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/chilean-energy-minister-open-santiago-172225464.html], [https://www.ogj.com/general-interest/economics-markets/article/17272054/chile-looking-to-gas-to-meet-energy-demand-energy-minister-says], [https://www.jsg.utexas.edu/news/2014/07/chile-looks-to-renewables-and-encourages-u-s-investment/], [https://www.eso.org/public/czechrepublic/announcements/ann16063/?lang], [https://dialogo-americas.com/articles/chilean-navy-hosts-exponaval-2014-conducts-maritime-anti-piracy-exercise/], [https://www.patagonjournal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2931:bachelets-new-pro-dam-energy-minister-has-environmentalists-on-edge&catid=89:environment&lang=es], [https://ecpamericas.org/events/chile-energy-sector-opportunities-industry-breakfast-roundtable/] ... Moscow Mule (talk) 17:27, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I may have been a bit harsh in my first request (I was and I am frustrated

::::::: with this nonsence parethesis and commas), but if this comment of yours does not persuade the the people, nothing will. Erosiva (talk) 21:13, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::It is contradictory that you talk about patronizing comments when you then allude to my two months and your years of exersise. We are not a hierarchy here, moves are done based on valid arguments not on who is most senior here. Second, you havent provided any answer to my question on how you would have handled the Eduardo Frei, father and son case. Lastly, I have never claimed we are on Spanish Wikipedia. Erosiva (talk) 21:07, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::{{tq|We are not a hierarchy here, moves are done based on valid arguments not on who is most senior here.}} That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you are clearly not particularly experienced on English Wikipedia and it would be a good idea to understand our conventions a bit better before you embark on trying to change things and not to patronise more experienced editors who are trying to point said conventions out to you. As for the Freis, if their maternal surnames are not commonly seen then they should be disambiguated by their years of birth instead. There are some errors on Wikipedia. That doesn't mean they should be used to illustrate some sort of non-existent precedent. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:41, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::To the point, if you do a quick search on the web you will see that whenever it is needed to differentiate between Máximo Pacheco father and son the second surname is added. That is the established practice. There is should be little doubt about that.[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22M%C3%A1ximo+Pacheco%22&t=h_ Search 1]. I can add that Máximo Pacheco the father appears in 10+ publications as Máximo Pacheco Gómez appear in 10+ publications (see Google Scholar). Why, if that is the differentiator he used should we change that? Why should father and son be differentiated by different means (if current status quo is kept)? Why not follow what Wikipedia tells us: WP:Use commonly recognizable names. Again, the persons, among those who are aware of them, most commonly differentiate them by their second surname. I am sincerely appalled by this sudden resistance to second/maternal surnames when this has been, for what I can see in history of pages, the established practice in Wikipedia for decades now.

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::::::::Also, third time I ask you how you would have handled the two Eduardo Frei which is similar. Still no answer. Erosiva (talk) 12:12, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Not that the Freis are relevant, but you clearly didn't read my reply! {{tq|I am sincerely appalled by this sudden resistance to second/maternal surnames when this has been, for what I can see in history of pages, the established practice in Wikipedia for decades now. }} No, it really has not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:57, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

:Note: WikiProject Biography/Politics and government has been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 11:40, 13 April 2025 (UTC)